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  1. #1
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    Default Raids need a new direction in this game.

    Currently, I believe that raids need some kind of new direction for the future of DDO. The current raids we have:


    • Have TERRIBLE scaling issues. And by that, I mostly talk about the level: Nobody in HELL that I know of raids the majority of raids near level (I.E. 3 above or below level), save for Tempests Spine and maybe heroic VoN*. Something needs to be done about that, but I wish I knew what.
    • Are NOT fun. Do you consider fun to be sudden death with no immediate explanation of who, what, when and why? Yes, I know most raids are not like that, but sudden death SUCKS. Not all raids should be bleepin rocket science, you know!
    • Are WAY too focused on loot. Loot, loot, loot, that's what it's all about! Shouldn't raids be special adventures that are fun to do and not necessarily aimed at acquiring loot? Im not against raid loot, but I am opposed to it when it is the driving force of running the majority of raids.
    • Give just about the same favor if only slightly more than quests. This tends to be a minor thing, but I believe raids should have some special sense of accomplishment that grabs the attention of the major representatives in whatever plane you reside in.


    We need a new direction for how raids are done in game. When it comes to a lot of things in DDO, they've done a lot of good new things, such as the music and questing. But there are two things Turbine does that are SO DDO:Stormreach days: Raids and Quality Assurance(I.E.: Bugs!).

    Thoughts?

    *You could count chronoscope too but I see it run for loot more often than at-level. At least its fun though!
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  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    Currently, I believe that raids need some kind of new direction for the future of DDO. The current raids we have:


    • Have TERRIBLE scaling issues. And by that, I mostly talk about the level: Nobody in HELL that I know of raids the majority of raids near level (I.E. 3 above or below level), save for Tempests Spine and maybe heroic VoN*. Something needs to be done about that, but I wish I knew what.
    • Are NOT fun. Do you consider fun to be sudden death with no immediate explanation of who, what, when and why? Yes, I know most raids are not like that, but sudden death SUCKS. Not all raids should be bleepin rocket science, you know!
    • Are WAY too focused on loot. Loot, loot, loot, that's what it's all about! Shouldn't raids be special adventures that are fun to do and not necessarily aimed at acquiring loot? Im not against raid loot, but I am opposed to it when it is the driving force of running the majority of raids.
    • Give just about the same favor if only slightly more than quests. This tends to be a minor thing, but I believe raids should have some special sense of accomplishment that grabs the attention of the major representatives in whatever plane you reside in.


    We need a new direction for how raids are done in game. When it comes to a lot of things in DDO, they've done a lot of good new things, such as the music and questing. But there are two things Turbine does that are SO DDO:Stormreach days: Raids and Quality Assurance(I.E.: Bugs!).

    Thoughts?

    *You could count chronoscope too but I see it run for loot more often than at-level. At least its fun though!
    Disagree with everything you said. The raids in this game are already very casual and have very little chance of sudden death. Not focusing on loot is driving endgame players away from the game, less focus on loot will lose an entire demographic from the game, and DDO:Stormreach if I'm not mistaken released most of the raids in this game and they are the best ones in the game. The only truely terrible raid in the game is citw because it's a freaking escort quest.

    If you don't like raids fine, but quit trying to take away something from the people that do like them just because you don't want to put the effort in to get minimal gear and learn a minimal amount. DDO's raids are already super easy and super casual compared to any other mmo I've seen.

    Also the reason they don't get done more at level is that by the time you run them once and wait out the timer you are over level. That means if you want anything from them you'll be running them overlevel to get that loot since most drop rates are pretty low.

  3. #3
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    OP what is this sudden death you speak of? Did some meany make you jump for the *extra* chest in shroud and didnt tell you *not* to release? lawl.

    What is soooooooo *complicated*? The fact you have to time the deaths of the dragons with the giants in FOT? errrmmm the practice in tor not enough to give people that idea? Also ghosts of perdition and how many other quests with that mechanic? Or is it the sudden death you sometimes get in Caught in the lag........when it lags out?

    take out the loot then why will people run the raid? especially now when groups take longer to fill? I love von5 for the xp and xp is a bonus I suppose in FOT.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-01-2013 at 11:47 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Shifting the "end game' of DDO from loot acquisition to pretty much ONLY XP acquisition is what is killing DDO.

    /not signed.

  5. #5
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    The new direction they need is loot that is relevant... Can't be stressed enough, the reason no one runs raids is only three of them have loot that isn't outmoded. The best you can say about the others is that there are a couple situationally nice items in some of them.

    Chrono still has a good set bonus epic, but it's uber grindy to get, not far off of being marginalized and there's no other reason to run it.

    Abbot: Quiver for 30% striding at first level on a TR is nice and a free boots slot for GS, Vile blasphemy for SP regen clicky that's non-exclusive. I think we would see more Abbots but A) it's a massive pain to flag for and B) it's a very hard raid by DDO standards. It requires skill, and will be failed even by level 28's with best destiny when that skill doesn't clear the bar, OR the party has simple bad luck, even with exploits that had worked for a long time and marginalized a 3rd of the skill factor it's still a fair chance to wipe.

    Shrouds are becoming rare on the LFM panel, despite SP items and HP items still being best in slot, and Displacement quaterstaffs being the best way to get displacement on a non-arcane. None of these are shiny any more, you can get 50-75% of their effects on less rare and easier to get items. Things like triple pos Mauls are long since marginalized by easy peasy account bound Silver flame Maul.

    Hound: nothing just zero. Leviks used to be great AC gear, now it's meh even at level.

    VOD: nothing I can think of Tharns certainly aren't worth farming for anymore

    TOD rings aren't really worth the trouble of flagging for and the PrE tie ins are busted another unfinished system in a game that could be called "unfinished systems online" this game sometimes looks like someone with ADD is in charge of it.

    LOB and MArty: Alchemical stuff is outmoded completely unless you need a good Tower Shield, or Radiance/Blade barrier Lore... now it's only a Tower Shield... you know... for your tank that is only really needed in LOB's?...

    What they need to do is embrace what DDO is/was and market the game as the advanced MMO with the high skill ceiling. Or they need to go for broke and redesign the game to be point and click mouse movement with auto follow and Right mouse Left mouse attack with 4 specials, rock paper scissors "trinity" classes and just go all out trying to be WoW.

    They seem to now be aiming "squarely down the middle" and we all know when you try to hit two things with one missile, you're bound to miss both of them.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  6. #6
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    There's space in DDO for what the OP seems to be asking for (more 12 player quests like VON5 and Tempest's Spine), but they shouldn't come at the cost of not having epic 12-person encounters against overwhelming foes.

    Which is what DDO most needs given that Shadowfell and MOTU de facto deleted all the 'old raids' that made up the endgame prior to MOTU.
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  7. #7
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Personally, I would like to see the old raids come back into fashion, and I think it would take a combination of scaling up the difficulty and making the loot relevant. Since there is way too much old loot to update and the power curve probably needs to be slowed down anyway, I think a system where epic items from other raids can be broken down or somehow mixed into newer items might be a possible solution. For example, let's say epic items from raids x, y, and z can be combined and broken down to add a red slot to a weapon...
    Or maybe 3 epic items from different raids can be combined and broken down to make a colorless tactical augment crystal. Something like that where you don't have to update a million old items, you end up needing to run a variety of raids, and you don't pull your hair out because of having to switch up your gear yet again.

    A system like this would have to only work for epic items that drop from now on, however. People have enough old junk stored that if they are able to trade those in groups may have trouble filling.

  8. #8
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    LOB and MArty: Alchemical stuff is outmoded completely unless you need a good Tower Shield, or Radiance/Blade barrier Lore... now it's only a Tower Shield... you know... for your tank that is only really needed in LOB's?...
    I disagree with what you write about alchemical weapons. They make for great repeating xbows (for CC, for specific damage types, until you get Needle), and good second-weapons for twfers. Also, they are the only source of extra str/con/dex that some builds could find useful (afaik, I could be wrong here).

    What they need to do is embrace what DDO is/was and market the game as the advanced MMO with the high skill ceiling. Or they need to go for broke and redesign the game to be point and click mouse movement with auto follow and Right mouse Left mouse attack with 4 specials, rock paper scissors "trinity" classes and just go all out trying to be WoW.

    They seem to now be aiming "squarely down the middle" and we all know when you try to hit two things with one missile, you're bound to miss both of them.
    Hmmm...I'd be happy if they just branched out horizontally with a bunch of raids at the level cap of 30 (since they're aiming for it anyways). It would be nice if they updated a lot of the loot, too, in the old raids, or added actually challenging Epic versions with the current system of EN, EH and EE loot.

  9. #9
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    whatever solution is eventually adopted, the worst one of all would be to simply bring out a few new,lvl 30 raids.


    that would merely increase the redundancy of the older content. sure we would have new content with new shinies, but we already have some very good content that needs bringing back up to snuff.


    new raids, yes, but SOMETHING for old raids too please.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    whatever solution is eventually adopted, the worst one of all would be to simply bring out a few new,lvl 30 raids.


    that would merely increase the redundancy of the older content. sure we would have new content with new shinies, but we already have some very good content that needs bringing back up to snuff.


    new raids, yes, but SOMETHING for old raids too please.
    Updating old raids sounds good to me: Epic Shroud for starters. Keep the loot as is, just add a bigger chance for larges and stat tomes and your halfway there already; add a tier 4 (ML20) so people can further raise the statbumps, extra hp etc on the various greensteel items and it gets really sweet. Oh and remove the smalls and mediums from the end reward list and just put in random loot...

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  11. #11
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Disagree with everything you said. The raids in this game are already very casual and have very little chance of sudden death. Not focusing on loot is driving endgame players away from the game, less focus on loot will lose an entire demographic from the game, and DDO:Stormreach if I'm not mistaken released most of the raids in this game and they are the best ones in the game. The only truely terrible raid in the game is citw because it's a freaking escort quest.

    If you don't like raids fine, but quit trying to take away something from the people that do like them just because you don't want to put the effort in to get minimal gear and learn a minimal amount. DDO's raids are already super easy and super casual compared to any other mmo I've seen.

    Also the reason they don't get done more at level is that by the time you run them once and wait out the timer you are over level. That means if you want anything from them you'll be running them overlevel to get that loot since most drop rates are pretty low.
    This.

    And:

    Raids are already a great adventure but loot is the most important factor that keeps people running them constantly.

    OP, you answered your own question: people right now don't run raids because there is no loot for them (and because they are getting old). What you suggest is drive away even more people.

    Also, there is no sudden death in any raid. If you die, you are doing it wrong. Simple. Just because you have no idea what's going on, doesn't mean that Raids are wrong.

    They are fun, they are good (we have some awesome Raids in the game: LoB, MA, FoT, VoN, ToD, Shroud, ADQ1, Titan): they don't get run because 1) loot sucks, 2) explorer areas to get to them.


    I like the Raid saga idea btw. True elite rewards (so you need to complete every raid on EE): one generic +3 Skill tome (so you can choose whatever you want), 15k Guild Renown, +5 Unbound tomes, 50 Sovereign Healing Potions, 7 Commendation of Heroism (we all know these will be used in any future raid lol). Choose one of them.
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  12. #12
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default would be nice to see raid updates

    most raids are worthles ,except favor. I would like to make greensteel ,but made it a bit complicated w all the friggin ingredients ,so i raid shroud and dump stuff in auction....Now w item augments ,greensteel is less important anyway..... A simple fix ,can be to drop some stat/ability tomes ,,appropriate for the lvl.....Less PUZZLES and Special Objectives ......;without specifics ...............ill say one word we shouldnt need all the fffnnn time "WIKI" .... ...if players need to read wiki to complete it,maybee you guys overthought all that Stuff .

  13. #13
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    most raids are worthles ,except favor. I would like to make greensteel ,but made it a bit complicated w all the friggin ingredients ,so i raid shroud and dump stuff in auction....Now w item augments ,greensteel is less important anyway..... A simple fix ,can be to drop some stat/ability tomes ,,appropriate for the lvl.....Less PUZZLES and Special Objectives ......;without specifics ...............ill say one word we shouldnt need all the fffnnn time "WIKI" .... ...if players need to read wiki to complete it,maybee you guys overthought all that Stuff .
    Most raids are also no longer end game. As for needing the wiki, the only raid I've had to do this with was Ascension Chamber and only because it is a very unique raid. Don't even get me started on removing puzzles and special objectives. I'm one of those "insane" people who loves running the Crucible and any other quest that encourages cooperation in order to finish.

    No reason to change the game simply because one or two people are incapable of learning the very basic concepts it introduces.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-02-2013 at 09:25 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    most raids are worthles ,except favor. I would like to make greensteel ,but made it a bit complicated w all the friggin ingredients ,so i raid shroud and dump stuff in auction....Now w item augments ,greensteel is less important anyway..... A simple fix ,can be to drop some stat/ability tomes ,,appropriate for the lvl.....Less PUZZLES and Special Objectives ......;without specifics ...............ill say one word we shouldnt need all the fffnnn time "WIKI" .... ...if players need to read wiki to complete it,maybee you guys overthought all that Stuff .
    If you *have* to read the wiki, then how did wiki get written in the first place? You see, someone had to run it first and write the guides.

    Wiki isn't a requirement, it's an easy button - wonderful at times, unnecessary at others - but just because you're too lazy to figure something out yourself, doesn't mean stuff's "too hard". Spending time while learning a tricky puzzle or trying to find ways to make a hard quest easier is also fun for many people.

    If anything, I'd vote MORE puzzles and MORE special objectives where possible. The DDO combat system isn't quite fluid/engrossing enough to put ALL the eggs in that basket. Skill use, puzzles, and optionals is what makes this game unique compared to other MMOs.


    As for GS... If you're having trouble figuring it out with the new interface, then I have no comment or consolation to offer.

  15. #15
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I run VON and Tempest Spine every life because they are fun. I daresay, there's no loot I need from Tempest Spine.

    ADQ is fun. DQ, not quite as much the millionth time. VoN 5 is awesome - can split, can run together.

    Has anyone ever kicked back, put their feet up and said "You know what would be fun? Hound of Xoriat!"
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  16. #16
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default really now... wiki is a lazy optional ?

    [QUOTE=Ausdoerrt;5119821]If you *have* to read the wiki, then how did wiki get written in the first place? You see, someone had to run it first and write the guides.

    Wiki isn't a requirement, it's an easy button - wonderful at times, unnecessary at others - but just because you're too lazy to figure something out yourself, doesn't mean stuff's "too hard". Spending time while learning a tricky puzzle or trying to find ways to make a hard quest easier is also fun for many people.



    to say players ,can experiment ,through All Raids is ludacrist...yea figure out by experimenting in the shroud,or caught in th eweb(u guess the battle sequences?)....get off your highhorse and wake up.Wiki is necessary Raid tool ,at least on 1st run through. ..unless you have other players helpin you w / info. Puzzles are cool,they are not an issue.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Disagree with everything you said. The raids in this game are already very casual and have very little chance of sudden death. Not focusing on loot is driving endgame players away from the game, less focus on loot will lose an entire demographic from the game, and DDO:Stormreach if I'm not mistaken released most of the raids in this game and they are the best ones in the game. The only truely terrible raid in the game is citw because it's a freaking escort quest.

    If you don't like raids fine, but quit trying to take away something from the people that do like them just because you don't want to put the effort in to get minimal gear and learn a minimal amount. DDO's raids are already super easy and super casual compared to any other mmo I've seen.

    Also the reason they don't get done more at level is that by the time you run them once and wait out the timer you are over level. That means if you want anything from them you'll be running them overlevel to get that loot since most drop rates are pretty low.
    I agree with you that raids are too casual, but I disagree they should be based around a loot grind. An endgame without PVP is just ludicrous, but if DDO is going to attempt it, it should revolve around very very tough raids. These raids will be so difficult that it will take a perfect party many months to learn and beat. These raids will require the perfect gear setup to beat, so obviously loot can't be involved, as you'll already need the best gear in the game to complete.

    Grinding loot, grinding EDs isn't endgame, it's what you do to prepare for endgame.

  18. #18
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I agree with you that raids are too casual, but I disagree they should be based around a loot grind. An endgame without PVP is just ludicrous, but if DDO is going to attempt it, it should revolve around very very tough raids. These raids will be so difficult that it will take a perfect party many months to learn and beat. These raids will require the perfect gear setup to beat, so obviously loot can't be involved, as you'll already need the best gear in the game to complete.

    Grinding loot, grinding EDs isn't endgame, it's what you do to prepare for endgame.
    its funny you say that an end game without PVP is ludicrous DDO has been doing it since it Feb 8 2006.

    answer me this:
    if these very very tough difficult to beat perfect party takes months to beat are not based on loot rewards because you already have to have all the best gear to beat the raid. what is the point of the raid?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    its funny you say that an end game without PVP is ludicrous DDO has been doing it since it Feb 8 2006.

    answer me this:
    if these very very tough difficult to beat perfect party takes months to beat are not based on loot rewards because you already have to have all the best gear to beat the raid. what is the point of the raid?
    DDO has never had an endgame. Ever. They've had a pointless hamster wheel loot grind. This isn't an endgame. This is busy work. If a raid gives you the loot, what again is the point of the raid? You've already beaten it. What is this loot now going to be used for? To make trivial content more trivial? If you can beat the hardest content in the game without the loot you're grinding for, then the loot is pointless. It's simply a trophy. I'd be fine with raids awarding trophies.

  20. #20
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    DDO has never had an endgame. Ever. They've had a pointless hamster wheel loot grind. This isn't an endgame. This is busy work. If a raid gives you the loot, what again is the point of the raid? You've already beaten it. What is this loot now going to be used for? To make trivial content more trivial? If you can beat the hardest content in the game without the loot you're grinding for, then the loot is pointless. It's simply a trophy. I'd be fine with raids awarding trophies.
    you should try Deer Hunter Online ( I hear that game has lots of trophies )

    http://www.atari.com/buy-games/outdo...-hunter-online

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