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  1. #1
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    Default Trubine: you guys realize you made it HARDER to kill undead with the changes right?

    Ghostbane was motivated by exit polls of newer players who found undead hard to kill. Well roll a new character and equip for your first Delera's run without pulling stuff from one of your established characters. Delera's is undoubtedly the "new player fuse" that caused "ghostbane".

    Yes that right, there's no more pure good or righteous and holy + ghostbane weapons on the AH below ML10 or 12 are basically non existent of any variety.

    So not only did your changes make it HARDER for a new player who don't know how to kill undead... it made it HARDER for everyone who doesn't already have undead beaters, even if they already KNOW how to kill undead. Of course this is to say nothing of all the stuff those new players will run into later that are also really hard to kill if you don't know how

    Now as I log in one of my other characters that has spectral gloves/Ethereal bracers in the bank and a holy/pg and pass it to my new alt, because I have pages of twink gear. I am reminded why Turbine needs to start asking the player base for feedback before slipping in re-boots of entire systems. Really we could have helped you with this... and we WANT to help you, but you didn't even tell us... and now you have a new system which almost everyone thinks is terrible (in terms of all the loot looking the same see: +1 boredom of funbane) that doesn't even address the problem you thought you were correcting (actually makes it worse)... In the mean time those new players who manage to luck into a Holy I of Ghostbane get through Delera's only to fight their first Golem or whatever or eleventy billion other mobs with other kinds of DR, and THEN they quit... Now your exit surveys say "new player: Golem/Construct/Elemental/Reaver/Fiend TOO HARD, DO NOT KNOW HOW TO KILL!"

    And no the answer is not to make every mob in the game simple and chase away your existing player base that wants a deep MMO because if we wanted to play WoW or NWO we would be their... the answer is to educate new players properly in Korthos, foster a "mentor" program, improve the community especially in relation to new players meeting established players and most of all: embrace (and promote) the "Advanced MMO" niche DDO is in, because if undead are too hard... it might be that the whole game is too hard and this just wasn't the game for them.
    Last edited by IronClan; 10-01-2013 at 10:57 AM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  2. #2
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.

    2) FoS posted that the other affixes will be coming back after they figure out how to turn them into generic, flavorless, scaling ones. So this is just another half-implemented, never-to-be-finished change rushed to production by Turbine.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.
    I'm guessing this would only be the case if players never play the account they are running favor on or log in their mules. Tracking individual inactive characters for this sort of thing would be a lot less logical than tracking inactive accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.

    2) FoS posted that the other affixes will be coming back after they figure out how to turn them into generic, flavorless, scaling ones. So this is just another half-implemented, never-to-be-finished change rushed to production by Turbine.
    Mules/favor farming will most likely be characters, not accounts. They count as one player then.

    Turning most of the remaining into tiered shouldn't be hard. Lacerating and higher version - check. Those with multiple things combined: start with a double and go to tripple / better components (just not as with guards, you know nothing about what you'll get).
    Most important to fix would be to display the tier in the name for my taste. Holy III Maul of Ghostbane IV doesn't look to bad, does it?

  5. #5
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.

    2) FoS posted that the other affixes will be coming back after they figure out how to turn them into generic, flavorless, scaling ones. So this is just another half-implemented, never-to-be-finished change rushed to production by Turbine.
    I'm going to guess that new player attrition occurs at level 4 because that's when you start feeling like the free to play content is lacking and if you want to continue, buying a pack is your best course of action. This is from the mind of a new player that just gets to the marketplace and sees a few f2p quests as well as all the p2p quests (sharn, stk and all the higher stuff they can't even wrap their minds around yet). IF new players are leaving at level 4, this would be my main guess why. They've hit the end of what they perceive to be the free to play game as this area (marketplace) is flooding them with p2p quests. They can make the decision to stay and pay or leave. They choose to leave. If in fact this is the issue, I'd solve it by making stk, catacombs and sharn free to play packs while moving some of the unobtainable quests to other areas or make it very clear they are for higher level players. This would make the market a more f2p friendly zone and keep players until the level 7 or 8ish range quite easily. I can't even think of a single ghostly creature that I ever fight before level 5 honestly.

    I don't even want to get started on the affixes. I'll probably rage myself into a forum ban if I do.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.
    And in this context solely, the most obvious undead quests are going to be Catacombs ones. I can see where Ghostbane will help newer players here (even if it's just damage, incorp isn't needed).

    That said, I think after Catacombs and once new players do reach Delera's they will be woefully unprepared, still, as the OP mentioned. And it may be even more frustrating since it's easy to imagine one saying: "This worked in Catacombs undead but why not here?"

    Sure there might be a quick line about DR breaking when you talk to Colam and get your Holy Flame club, but one line of text isn't really going to clear up the confusion when they realize that "Ghostbane" only works on some undead and not all.

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post

    I don't even want to get started on the affixes. I'll probably rage myself into a forum ban if I do.
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  7. #7
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    Are those statements actually connected to each other contextually or are you taking one Dev quote with a totally different context and applying it to another Dev quote? It's entirely possible that "most players leave at level 4" while at the same time "exit polls show undead being hard to kill, causes players to leave"... they are not necessarily related to each other at all. If 18 percent of the attrition is at level 4, and presumably they have/do take steps to mitigate that, but also they see a trend of 6th and 7th and 8th level players of 6% attrition that have cited "undead = hard" then one has nothing to do with the other, in terms what we're talking about...

    Additionally there are next to no undead (that are hard to kill anyway) from 1st to 4th level until Delera's... I can't recall Catacombs undead being hard except the one quest that has partially non-corporeal skells but that pack is hardly popular enough to be the culprit.

    Last point: MANY players do under level Delera's... in fact I have about 8 alts that all ran Delera's fresh off the Vet 4 status boat, and all 8 of them started and lead 4th level to 7th-ish level LFM's (all where before Bravery Bonus existed) these LFM's were and still are very popular XP/Voice farming groups, and I'm pretty sure all of those groups had at least some other 4th level characters. So it's not only concievable it seems probable that Delera's is the first of the hard undead quests.

    In any case the first undead you face that are "hard" are incorporeal skell warriors and wraiths... 99% of these are in Delera's or later...

    On a tangent level 1 through 4 on a new player are rather obvious quitting points simply due to "meh this game isn't for me" or "I like another game better" so I would be shocked if more new players don't leave within a couple levels. Again this really doesn't impact players who cite undead being hard as the reason they left. As Turbine can and I'm sure does, address multiple factors that players leave over, all throughout the level ranges... In fact I believe the Stones of XP are deliberately designed to bootstrap players into the "profitable range"... that is the level ranges where the most money is spent on characters (and also probably the most likely range where a player is going to play the game over a significant amount of time and spend money)
    Last edited by IronClan; 10-01-2013 at 10:38 AM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  8. #8
    Community Member Vallar's Avatar
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    I am completely with the OP on this one. That from the perspective of a once was low level new players -- allow me to explain.

    Back when I came to DDO first time I never heard of something called DR before and I never knew what it is or even read about it. Basically, the first problem was when I went to Church and The Cult on a sorc. I was F2P so I never saw Catacombs or Delera. Anyway, point is was first time I play outside of a full group and we were 2 (a friend and I he was melee and I had a messed up build since I didn't know anything about D&D). When we reached the boss it took us literally 35 minutes to kill it with 43 deaths.
    The very first thing I did after this was read on DR and I was like "WOW, this is like the best idea ever".

    Bottom line is, people want to be spoon fed information rather than have to work to get it. I don't mind what happened in that quest; I had fun. But others won't which means, if there is some kind of tutorial to tell you there is something called DR that will be far MORE better than just doing the Ghostbane thing.

    Turbine did really nice with the intro in Heyton's rest when there was that chest and there is some text saying that blunt weapons work best with skeletons while slashing weapons are for zombies. Why not do the same as a full tutorial on all things DR? That is WAY better than breaking the game like what you did now.

    +1 to OP.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Ghostbane is stupid, it just is. One more example of Turbine making things worse with a 'fix.'

  10. #10
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    As a new player I didn't have much trouble understanding what DR was; I read the forums and DDOWiki pretty religiously. I did have a little trouble acquiring the beaters themselves, but that came with time. But that's just the point: most new players don't read the forums, nor the Wiki, and the Wiki isn't even an official resource to begin with.

    The problem I feel is in documentation. As was said in a post above, a one liner about skelly DR buried in some NPC text is just not enough. And DDO is simply horrible in terms of Documentation in-game. Random loading screen tips for example. 1st, make sure they are ALL updated, 2nd make them non-random, level appropriate. Anyways, so much can be done in regards to in game docs. More reference to the Monster Manual, for example.

    Point is, shallowing DDOs learning curve needs to be done by TEACHING new players, not by changing loot mechanics. And especially not by changing loot mechanics BADLY.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    They should alter necromancer's doom in korthos to explain about DR. It is the perfect opportunity. They could have the captive yelling out helpful things to you like, "Those skeleton, you need a bludgeoning weapon to really hurt them!"

    In delara's they should rename the ghostly skeletons into something that does not make them sound like they are incorporeal. They should be unholy skeletons or something, thereby actually giving a clue as to how to break their DR. As it stands the first time I ran it I saw them, pulled out my ghost touch weapon, swung, and said "***, this is screwy!"

    There are three low level chains that players might run into chock full of undead. Catacombs, delara's (on normal it is a level 5 quest iirc), and necro 1. Of these, delara's has more things in it that ghostbane will not effect at all, and catacombs has margerite, the wraith that has wiped more newbie parties than any other undead combined (I would bet), who is invincible and can not be hurt at all (at level without ED twists anyway), even with ghost bane. Necro 1 ends every quest but the last with a Mummy, that paralyzes the unprepared with fear and then slaughters entire parties of newbies, Ghostbane does not prevent getting paralyzed, nor getting killed while paralyzed. The last necro 1 quest ends with a vampire, immune to damage at all until certain requirements are met, then still has silver DR and he teleports and spends time invisible and healing, Nothing about him will let ghostbane make that quest easier.

    I do not think ghostbane had any effect at all on how hard undead are to kill for newbies.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 10-01-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    They should alter necromancer's doom in korthos to explain about DR. It is the perfect opportunity. They could have the captive yelling out helpful things to you like, "Those skeleton, you need a bludgeoning weapon to really hurt them!"
    As in... copy the Heyton's Rest? Like, the quest you walk straight onto when leaving the groto? Which has DM text explaining just that, and even provides a complementary slashing/bludgeoning weapon to go with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    In delara's they should rename the ghostly skeletons into something that does not make them sound like they are incorporeal. They should be unholy skeletons or something, thereby actually giving a clue as to how to break their DR. As it stands the first time I ran it I saw them, pulled out my ghost touch weapon, swung, and said "***, this is screwy!"
    +1

  13. #13
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    1) MajMal posted that most new player attrition happens at level 4, before they're even exposed to Delera's. I'm curious if their metrics are entirely accurate, with Level 4 being the prime cutoff for mule characters and favor farmers.
    if that's the case, than it leads me to wonder how the exit surveys talked about undead since your first big experience with them is Deleras and Necro 1. that would than imply loot changes were the result of poor feedback they pulled out of a hat or thought it would be cool to suddenly change the flavor of loot.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    As in... copy the Heyton's Rest? Like, the quest you walk straight onto when leaving the groto? Which has DM text explaining just that, and even provides a complementary slashing/bludgeoning weapon to go with it.
    The main problem with that is that they also quickly learn that the DR is so low it doesn't really matter that much.

    I think we need a lowish level quest with several different common DR types and so high that at level players will need to break it in order to do any damage whatsoever. Some mobs should also have elemental immunities so casters can learn to adjust their spells when needed. Since it is meant to be a learning quest I would give the mobs relatively low damage or slower reactions to allow time for figuring out how to switch weapons around and experiment with what works and what doesn't. Have the end reward contain a selection of DR breaking weapons and you're golden.

  15. #15
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    first - delera ghostly skeletons arent incorporeal. maybe they arent even skeletons as they lack usual 5/bludgeoning DR. only DR they have is 100/good. if anyone going to dlera dont have any holy weapon in arsenal, it his fault. (btw anyone ever seen LFM for deleras with Bring DR beaters?)

    and the dr can be easily seen in combat log, so u re not dependent only on one line in npc text.

    tho i dont like ghostbane, mostly thanks to flooding chests recently, imho OP is exaggerating problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    The main problem with that is that they also quickly learn that the DR is so low it doesn't really matter that much.

    I think we need a lowish level quest with several different common DR types and so high that at level players will need to break it in order to do any damage whatsoever. Some mobs should also have elemental immunities so casters can learn to adjust their spells when needed. Since it is meant to be a learning quest I would give the mobs relatively low damage or slower reactions to allow time for figuring out how to switch weapons around and experiment with what works and what doesn't. Have the end reward contain a selection of DR breaking weapons and you're golden.
    A resounding +1 from me for this idea. (Doubt it would ever be implemented, but it's an excellent suggestion regardless).

  17. #17
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    The main problem with that is that they also quickly learn that the DR is so low it doesn't really matter that much.

    I think we need a lowish level quest with several different common DR types and so high that at level players will need to break it in order to do any damage whatsoever. Some mobs should also have elemental immunities so casters can learn to adjust their spells when needed. Since it is meant to be a learning quest I would give the mobs relatively low damage or slower reactions to allow time for figuring out how to switch weapons around and experiment with what works and what doesn't. Have the end reward contain a selection of DR breaking weapons and you're golden.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    A resounding +1 from me for this idea. (Doubt it would ever be implemented, but it's an excellent suggestion regardless).
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    /signed
    Since a few people liked it and I've been thinking about it here's even a possible quest.

    A "zoo" of exotic creatures have escaped their cages and it is up to the players to recapture them. The begging of the quest will have you going past the empty cages. Each will have a description on of the creature that was contained within as well as a chest which contains zoo keeper supplies a "cattle prod" of the appropriate metal/alignment type and possibly a wand with a spell the creature is vulnerable too. The player then make their way through the zoo and "capture" the creatures using the appropriate weapons/spells. Since the creatures have been caged for so long they are weaker than mobs of their type would normally be. This allows player to be introduced to a variety of mobs and DR's.

  19. #19
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    I recently solo'd one of those Delera quests on elite, and the only weapon I had that injured those ghostly skeletons was a quarterstaff of acid - and only the acid damaged them. Shock, frost, and flame all did nothing.

    And yes, killing them took FOREVER.

    And the other quest where I got really frustrated was Chronoscope, since I couldn't for the life of me find a flametouched quarterstaff anywhere.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    And the other quest where I got really frustrated was Chronoscope, since I couldn't for the life of me find a flametouched quarterstaff anywhere.
    I am surprised they did not have one at the flame touched weapon vendor inside the bar in the quest. I have found a couple other weapons missing from their list too, but don't remember all of them.
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