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  1. #181
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    The DOS/SD"s in question had AC at the breaking points for LOB and hard elite TOD at the time, they had better saves, also we used monk tanks as well, especially for bosses that did a lot of spell damage like in Echrono. And the ones I knew didn't have problems with threat, im sorry im not going to heal a wf barb to tank in elite TOD when I have a human DOS pally in my party who ive seen tank it successfully many times. There was a huge difference.
    yeah WF barb was never even a possibility for like TOD. WF always tanked Sully. when LOB came out, AC tanks was without question. on normal, a barb wasn't a terrible idea but on hard or higher, no way. my guild was trying to get me to learn to tank LOB on my barb, but I didn't like that idea at all because I knew better. in Echrono, that's where the Pally/monks usually shined and the better choice. I don't know how many Echronos I joined where the party leader specifically wanted an AC tank but it was too many. barbs were usually the back up plan, but pre-MOTU it seemed people were catching on to preferring the pally/monks.

  2. #182
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    yeah WF barb was never even a possibility for like TOD. WF always tanked Sully. when LOB came out, AC tanks was without question. on normal, a barb wasn't a terrible idea but on hard or higher, no way. my guild was trying to get me to learn to tank LOB on my barb, but I didn't like that idea at all because I knew better. in Echrono, that's where the Pally/monks usually shined and the better choice. I don't know how many Echronos I joined where the party leader specifically wanted an AC tank but it was too many. barbs were usually the back up plan, but pre-MOTU it seemed people were catching on to preferring the pally/monks.
    Ah the good old days.

    Most of the eChrono's I ran the tank was whoever had aggro with their DoTs. So many DoT parties on G-Land ....
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  3. #183
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Im not familiar with barbs having not really played one past the early levels, and now with the new enhancements.
    I did my barb life before the EP, so I have no idea what they look like now, but before they looked like a myopic masochist that lacked any versatility at all. I swapped in a few rogue and FvS levels to give solid self healing to my build, because I simply could not handle how limited the barb was.

    ED's really change things a lot for them tho, they open quite a few doors that were not open before, but still those abilities are ED's not barb abilities, they don't make the Barb class more fun to play, they just make it suck less after you mixed in a few epic levels.

  4. #184
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Well hes not that sadistic he thinks we will all become *enlightened* and it wont be suffering anymore and we can all go to rainbow and lollipop land together.

    Im not familiar with barbs having not really played one past the early levels, and now with the new enhancements.

    I like some of the suggestions here, and I might be repeating some.\

    But some better defenses in the trees and have it scale up the more higher tiers and barb levels you get, can have them flat bonuses or cost ap maybe replace some of the crappy stuff?

    Things like better saves while raged? Some bonuses, maybe not make them on par with what paladins can get or monks but reasonably high.

    Right at the top tier maybe give a 75%-85% damage negated from spells that you get 50% off for making a reflex save? Tempest's get improved evasion I know its expensive but while barbarians are not rogues/monks or rangers are they not suppose to have good reflexes, uncanny dodge like abilities? And have this work in medium armour and lighter.

    Also have some ppr that stacks with everything else..........barbs are suppose to be tough aren't they?

    And this might seem funny but some stacking resistances like what there is for ranger past lives? Barbarians are suppose to live in the wilds and can be subject to some harsh environments so maybe some cold/fire resistances? Maybe make this not cost aps, or if it does make it cheap, and im not thinking a huge amount but some to make it a little worthwhile bonus on the side?

    I like these potion quafing ideas, and health gained back from doing damage.


    And I know saves are an all or nothing thing so maybe have a 30% or lower reduction even if you make your save, and have this ability be a higher tier and cost more than the 75%+ damage reduced if you make your reflex save?
    typically, barbs wont have high reflexes because you would invest in con and str. the rest of your build points is up in the air and cant really go wrong. an argument could be made to put more in dex or wis. a barbs will save is usually pretty crappy, but their fortitude should be very high. the problem with reflex saves and uncanny dodge is that without evasion you are going to still take damage. that +4 more is the same as 0. I think OS and 2 rogue levels with a decent dex score would be a really good barb build because you make spell saves and can evade anything else. I could get behind maybe a high tier enhancement in OS that grants temporary evasion with uncanny dodge.

    if we think about what a barbarian really is, he is a reckless savage so taking damage should be understood in that way but he should be able to shrug off that damage and keep trucking. DR/ or PRR or dodge or something along those lines I think needs to be increased, but not by a lot. just something that doesn't make a barb take damage like a wet paper bag, more specifically in epic levels.

    really, there is only 2 things a barb needs to be "fixed". better healing options than CSW pots and SF pots and a little better defense. everything else about the class I don't see wrong with it. now if we look at the trees, than yes there are some problems there.

  5. #185
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Ah the good old days.

    Most of the eChrono's I ran the tank was whoever had aggro with their DoTs. So many DoT parties on G-Land ....
    whats that build that has pally/monk/sorc that used DOTs to tank? pretty good with saves and healing, but you had to dumb down your dps or you would steal agro.

    don't get me started on DOTs though. too powerful and can easily pull agro from the tank. so annoying and seen parties wipe because people cant keep those DOTs under control when someone is trying to tank.

  6. #186
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    don't get me started on DOTs though. too powerful and can easily pull agro from the tank. so annoying and seen parties wipe because people cant keep those DOTs under control when someone is trying to tank.
    Sorcerers need to learn a small trick named "bluff". It gives you -50% threat for 6 seconds even if you FAIL the bluff check against the target. And it have a 15 seconds timer. So, basically, every two DoT castings, you bluff before doting, and it reduces a lot of your threat.
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  7. #187
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    whats that build that has pally/monk/sorc that used DOTs to tank? pretty good with saves and healing, but you had to dumb down your dps or you would steal agro.
    Wasn't the point to have aggro? I've run with someone who had a 12 Sorcerer, 6 Paladin, 2 Monk build. Can't remember anything beyond that though.

    Edit: Realized you meant they couldn't hold aggro.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-05-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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  8. #188
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    That's the standard archetype yes, but smart play can let a barbarian avoid a ton of damage. Switch to a paralyzing weapon and yes your DPS goes down, but with cleaves, it doesn't take long before all the bad guys are paralyzed...
    Even my Improved paralyzing weapons almost never paralyzes anything in EE.

  9. #189
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    In the words of Ivan Drago, the Fighter says to the Barb: "I must break you"
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  10. #190
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    Isn't this nerfing your DPS even more? Try that in a group and you'll have killed one enemy while everyone else has cleared the next room and a half. Of course you can mitigate your damage taken by hanging in the back and pot shotting things. If this is what the barbarian has become to remain viable then it really does need to be retired! The Barbarian has always been a rahhhhhwww I will kill everything in front of me if you keep me healed sort of character. Once they made FVS, and then gave clerics very good combat abilities no one wants to engage in that contract anymore because a) the barbarian no longer is the best killer and b) people playing classes with healing abilities rightly want to do things other than heal the barbarian. So the core premise of the barbarian is gone forever and none of its abilities have kept up with the times. So a barb either must self heal or his dps must increase to the point where the melee/divine contract becomes worthwhile again. I've already talked about self healing options. Some DPS options might include:

    DR breaking - Monks were probably given DR breaking at level stages initially because there weren't enough wraps in the game to break DR. One could argue that a monk has martial arts training to focus on an enemies weaknesses but you could also give this barbarians. After all what does it matter if you are resistant to non silver weapons if you have been decapitated? You can argue barbs attack with such force and cause such grevious injuries they break DR at certain levels like Monks
    Useless, dr breakers are easy to get, don't build for what gear can easely do
    Limbchopper - add the Limbchopper effect to weapons as a barbarian capstone.
    nice but doesn't add dps, just a badly done CC
    Improve Rage - rioht now there is a severe penalty to being raged with all clicks in the game. If that remains then using rage must be made more of a choice. I suggest adding 1W dmg per 5 levels of barbarian.
    Adds too little, remove power attack cap and triple the damage of power attack at cap (while raged and 2hf) to bring barbs closer to the dps it used to be
    This now makes barbarian an interesting split class to use and a full capstone L20 barbarian has 4W and limbchopper to his weapons. His DPS is now scaled up what it should be in epic levels and that contract between him and a divine is now something worth considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Okay how about this, while raging allow "natural" (non study/knowledge based) sorcer/fvs/warlock (some day)/Druid/Ranger style magics and allow Bard style magic (because: read about Bard's magic). This opens up multiclassing combo's that aren't currently viable at all, (in other words anything more than a 3 barbarian splash for for THF stuff and Supreme cleave, I have a 3 Barb 17 Cleric Half Orc like this, doesn't use rage.) with a few tweaks and some creativity add shamanic totems and fetishes which are basically primitive wands/clickies that only primal types can use. Add a new class grant feat to Druids, Barbs and Bards etc., "Primalism" I'm including Bards because their roots are very much in primitive music ritualism/story telling/oral history keeping, see Poetic Eddas of the Vikings for exmple. Heck maybe even add some Iconics along these lines: Half Orc Shamen for example.

    This gives Barbarians some usable while raging sources of magic and some viable multiclassing splashes (they can take a few Bard or FvS levels as though they were training to be shaman in their village and get healing this way) and a few items they can use as clickies... (so if they stay pure they can still have some healing wand/clickies. While keeping the clickies somewhat more limited than if you give them access to all clickie items while raging.

    Solves a lot of problems neatly and with flavor.
    here's my gripe wih all of this, in order to fix things you want to add self healing/casting???? more copping out, emulating other classes?
    NO!
    its bad enough that we have to suffer through all those 1-5 min clickies just to survive, i refuse to add more magic garbage to the hotbar, barbarian is a melee class, want to add magic (ritual scaring guy from forgoten realms?), thats fine but a pure melee builds should still be viable!

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    Wow. It's been a while since I've posted/read last in this thread. Has anyone brought up the Rage Mage prestige found in Complete Warrior? Perhaps make an adaptation for a barbarian tree, have some core abilities to allow use of spells/clickies while raging, etc. If someone's already brought up the notion, then, my apologies for retreading over old ground.
    More emulation, yugh, keep stabbing the class in the back, it's not dead enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You have to understand, Thrud mostly solo's, and then flower sniffs, taking hours upon hours to do a quest on hard, because that is what he finds fun in this game, and thinks everyone else should suffer along with him.
    Bingo!

    And that is when they really should have just handed out self healing to every class like candy to allow everyone to enjoy the game equally.

    The mistake was not giving divines the ability to kill, it was in not also giving everyone else the ability to restore their own health bar at the same time.

    It can still be flavor!

    For barbs. Just have things linked to the Rage:

    Give them the "Blood Drinker" ability, which allows them to recover a % of the damage they do in combat while raged.

    Give them the ability to Quaff healing potions while raged (Just image they shoved several bottles in their mouth and chewed) they could get a -5% heal amp to symbolize the damage from the glass if some players want to get fussy about it.
    Maybe this might work, but with the low amount of attacks that % number needs to go up
    There is a lot that could be done to add self sustainability to barbs and skill keep their favor going.
    Reminds me of a pnp group where the player controlling a wizard convinced the dm i needed weapon focus before being allowed to take improved critical, claiming it would fit the theme, my great axe crits were prob taking the spot light away from his casting (same player who tried to convince me i should take dodge+quickdraw(for that same great axe) on that same toon at lv 1(my first pnp toon)
    And although i survived with the party to lv 16 with a +2 great axe and a pair of masterwork boots (no potions nor heals!), purely by learning the rules and playing smart
    This ****age behaviour is continued in DDO, oh, you want a dps melee toon? ahhh, i see, but you do huge amount of self damage as compensation, need some high power self healing on that toon? have some self nerfing SF pots, i call BS.
    To the dev's of any MMO out there:
    I don't care how emotional scared you are about the musclebound jock taking the girl you had a crush on to the prom, (while you were reading books about being the knightly hero, he worked out to be one), stop taking it out on melee classes, stop putting in over the top "balancing" nerfs in there so you can feel special being in a caster class.
    The self damage of the barb capstone&the self damaging (death)frenzy&lack of defense&lack of self heal while raged (you know, the primary game mechanically reason to be barb?)&mob defenses&mob damage output&mob hp, outweigh the pitiful dps has at higher level, apparently no one can design a proper melee dps class.
    The risk of being a barb far outweigh the potential profit
    Ahhhh, but barbs have more hp then the arcane canons to balance things out, right? i call BS again, the difference between a capped wizard and barb is (12-4)X28=224 hp, a pitiful amount in EE endgame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    In the words of Ivan Drago, the Fighter says to the Barb: "I must break you"
    yep, since the barb class is dead, your build is exactly what my barb
    will be....

  11. #191
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    I think making stunning blow less of a timer, and giving er an extra half char level would go a long way in making any melee without a set of wraps on more survivable. Your better off trying to trip something then stun blow it.

    Though the real meat and potatoes comes from barbs gettn jacked on not being able to use clickies and fighters/monks/rogs/mnkter/whatever else anyone creates uses on a constant consistent basis. The poor sobs can't even get an outside displacement anymore because turb made it self cast.

    So they gotta be going through 20 or so clickies casting a rage, fighting that duration and then dropping and clicking again. Then if your not 18 barb suffering those levels, with every drop your running like a gimp lame legged codger, using boosts just to keep up.

    You can't even go pure. To do so is to be labeled. Before maybe, it just said, I don't give a damn im dps and ain't nothing worth trying for anyway. But now with resistance +8 or 10, +10 stats, and exceptional or whatever they've labeled them, along with damn near every benefit under the sun, having a decent save is attainable, as is much more. Course the same goes for fighters, so no pure was really spared almost. (couple exceptions in the melee category.) I loved the crits on my barb, but no way did I like being someone elses * in a group.

    Maybe one day ai will become as smart as a human and not seem autistic or mentally challenged at the simplest things like healing themselves and or others (me) But until that day a hireling is a reject of society.
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  12. #192
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    yeah WF barb was never even a possibility for like TOD. WF always tanked Sully. when LOB came out, AC tanks was without question. on normal, a barb wasn't a terrible idea but on hard or higher, no way. my guild was trying to get me to learn to tank LOB on my barb, but I didn't like that idea at all because I knew better. in Echrono, that's where the Pally/monks usually shined and the better choice. I don't know how many Echronos I joined where the party leader specifically wanted an AC tank but it was too many. barbs were usually the back up plan, but pre-MOTU it seemed people were catching on to preferring the pally/monks.
    We always like to have flesh builds with AC to tank sully, WF if they had AC or where self healing with torc and stuff, and shield blocking. I use to do it a lot on my ranger/monk, tank sully and even tanked horo a few times when our horo tank face planted, I also got asked to tank the conjoined on my ranger/monk a bit. Was cool tanking Sully, solo tanking the jailor and dpsing him down a bit solo, the conjoined abishai, and have some people in party panicking when it was suggested, ZOMG!!!!! ranger? we is going to wipe!!! It can only be done with a WF melee and a arcane or two reconning him. ANd I would often do all my own healing too, well on sully and jailor, horo was a pain in the butt but healers said I took a lot less damage even on horo but I didnt like it cause the lower hit points made it dicey imho, esp if I rolled a bad save or something.

    Having to dismiss rage to use clickies and stuff though is a big turn off I guess for barbs.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-06-2013 at 07:47 PM.

  13. #193
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Id agree to this, just to watch the massive griefing fest that follows when arcane casters, bards, and anyone with primal scream are rendering their entire party useless until their rage buffs wear off. Your nerf wouldn't last a week.
    guess they'll just have to press the defensive fighting feat clicky then turn it off. Woe is six seconds of life.

  14. #194
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Is trying to save the barbarian class like trying to enter a 1972 Pinto into a formula one race?

    Barbs have always been terrible . . . well . . . they've been terrible for at least since MoTU. Trying to make them not terrible just isn't gonna happen.

  15. #195
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I just swapped my old pally to a two weapon fighting 12 barbarian 4 favorite soul 4 rogue. Think its going to work well. Ameloriating strike for self heals (sp pots when needed of course), evasion with good saves, lots of hit points, good dps, good stun blow.

    One thing I am kind of getting bored of is stun blow/stun fist and sunder. Wish that there were more tactics that upped dps or neutralized opponents. That is why rogue and archers are fun because they have different tactics that they employ. I would love disarm and grapple in DDO. One feat set that I do not think Pen and Paper does a good job with is bull rush - Turbine could make that better. Bull Rush would be great fun in DDO and a cool barbarian option. The fun thing about stun and sunder is you get gear for it, build for it, etc. If we could have feats like improved disarm, improved grapple, and improved Bull Rush a part of the fun would be building and gearing for it.

    What would be cool for barbarians would be a new set of auto granted feats. How about some feats granted to barbarians like Great blow http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Great_Blow_(3.5e_Feat), Cleaving Rampage http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cleavin...ge_(3.5e_Feat) , http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Frenzie...ck_(3.5e_Feat) , etc.
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  16. #196
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    One thing I am kind of getting bored of is stun blow/stun fist and sunder. Wish that there were more tactics that upped dps or neutralized opponents.
    Sap works though I've only used it on one character build.
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  17. #197
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Originally, barbarians were supposed to make up for being easier to hit by their ability to mitigate physical damage to a much higher degree than other classes. Their DR needs to be increased, and I would suggest giving them a PRR bonus equal to their total barb DR bonus. And maybe there could be a high level barbarian feat that lets them regenerate HP. That would be nice to have.

  18. #198
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Their DR needs to be increased, and I would suggest giving them a PRR bonus equal to their total barb DR bonus. And maybe there could be a high level barbarian feat that lets them regenerate HP. That would be nice to have.
    At this point in time I'm more convinced they need to solve the true root of the problem. Namely find new ways off increasing the difficulty beyond simply increasing enemy HP and damage output. Giving Barbarians a boost would only really increase the number of builds with splashes of Barbarian.
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  19. #199
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    At this point in time I'm more convinced they need to solve the true root of the problem. Namely find new ways off increasing the difficulty beyond simply increasing enemy HP and damage output. Giving Barbarians a boost would only really increase the number of builds with splashes of Barbarian.
    The decreasing effectiveness of barbarians really is a symptom of changes, and its a question of treating the symptom or addressing the root causes. In prior 'eras' of ddo gameplay barbarians were quite effective party members given their high damage output, but it required party support and/or silver flame pots. Over the course of enhancement passes, BYOH ascendancy, and static HP potions versus increasing overall HP/damage, the barbarian has lost some of its luster.

    I think we're long past the point where the general desire of established players is for a party-role oriented style of group play. It's been a long time since I've even seen a post from a well-known prophet of party role style gameplay would post threads that devolved into popcorn fodder. So the barbarian class has to adapt given its general dependence on others when pots don't cut it.

    I think that if you want to avoid the barbarian splash of only a few levels for massive benefits, then proposed benefits like self-healing through damage or other mitigation factors should go into the core part of trees where you can control how big of a splash is needed to gain the benefit. This would coincide with the ability to keep barbarians alive through heroic content through the normal means, while giving them a leg-up when they really start to trail off when everyone else is picking up umd/cocoon/etc survival options.
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  20. #200
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    The decreasing effectiveness of barbarians really is a symptom of changes, and its a question of treating the symptom or addressing the root causes. In prior 'eras' of ddo gameplay barbarians were quite effective party members given their high damage output, but it required party support and/or silver flame pots. Over the course of enhancement passes, BYOH ascendancy, and static HP potions versus increasing overall HP/damage, the barbarian has lost some of its luster.

    I think we're long past the point where the general desire of established players is for a party-role oriented style of group play. It's been a long time since I've even seen a post from a well-known prophet of party role style gameplay would post threads that devolved into popcorn fodder. So the barbarian class has to adapt given its general dependence on others when pots don't cut it.

    I think that if you want to avoid the barbarian splash of only a few levels for massive benefits, then proposed benefits like self-healing through damage or other mitigation factors should go into the core part of trees where you can control how big of a splash is needed to gain the benefit. This would coincide with the ability to keep barbarians alive through heroic content through the normal means, while giving them a leg-up when they really start to trail off when everyone else is picking up umd/cocoon/etc survival options.
    In today's self sufficiency DDO, a barbarian has to adapt to these changes. Through heroic levels, with smart play, he can do fine with just csw and SF pots. Zerging into a room, where shrugging off pain and push a button to self heal is the preferred play style now, can be healing intensive for a barb. In epics, barbs have the same healing options but can also twist Healing Spring or Cocoon. That puts barbs even further behind in self sufficiency.

    I have learned to adapt to these changes in DDO, but in epics its become beyond challenging. I am totally against any kind of self healing on a barb unless its vampirism attained through enhancements or EDs because a barbarian is about raw DPS and not like a paladin or ranger. What does need improvement is better defense and another pot option between csw and SF without the penalties. The game has evolved into a solo self sufficiency game and barbarians are getting left behind.

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