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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    So according to you a divine's only purpose is to be a healer? That's very narrow minded. To me a divine is simply someone who obtains their spells from a divine source. Whether they choose to use these for making themselves better at healing or something entirely different is up to the player to choose. I should consider myself lucky I don't have the misfortune of being in any D&D group you are part of because it would be a very dull party.
    You are right. I should have said, "It's what makes divines special." When anyone can heal, and raise dead Divines aren't special anymore.

  2. #102
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    You are right. I should have said, "It's what makes divines special." When anyone can heal, and raise dead Divines aren't special anymore.
    Perhaps that would have made a difference, but I don't see why you couldn't scribe a scroll to handle it.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-02-2013 at 05:09 PM.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  3. #103
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i like the idea of a better PRR for barbs that scales better. their DR really isn't that great, especially getting into epics. the thing is, barbs would be considered too OP if their DR or PRR was increased a lot to really matter since they should be the most powerful melee class. i know people don't like this, especially ones who heal party members, but i like it when my barb gets hit in combat because she has a lot of guards that proc a lot, even the low % ones proc a lot.

    i was thinking too a high tier vampirism enhancement. have 3 types, a lesser a vampirism and a greater vampirism, you can spend AP on that increase your hp regen on hit. that's probably the only thing i can think of i could get behind for better self healing.
    They would proc still because PRR and DR don't count until you are hit.

    I would avoid PRR as they would become simple splash classes just for it. I think DR tied to barb level is the way to go. I think you should be able to get 1 DR per 2 barb levels and then on the enhancement line make a change so there is a tier 1 5/10/15% healing amp leading to a tier 2 or even tier 3 2/4/8 DR boost.

    Thus if you took a barb to level 20 with the full boost you would end up with DR of 18. Considering that their PRR is gonna be limited because of medium armor it's honestly going to be behind the SD damage3 mitigation by a fair bit and even behind a fighter in Heavy but given the Barbs increased DPS and his better HP I think it would be a solid trade.

    Also keep in mind the higher DPS should mean less swings against you and therefore less chances you get hit. I think it's a fairly simple thing that could add the needed boost to Barbs without overbalancing things.


  4. #104
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    I think that giving the Barbs a good boost of DR and some PRR at capstone so that a splash can not get the bonuses would work just fine since getting a Barb to 20 is not the problem.

    as well as giving them a Vampirism based stance to feed them some self healing

    ***
    when I played my barb life (level cap was 20) I used Vampiric weapons to self heal a bit when I needed it worked quite nicely.

  5. #105
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    You are right. I should have said, "It's what makes divines special." When anyone can heal, and raise dead Divines aren't special anymore.
    So ever since there has been bards around divines have not been special? Bards can heal...they are arcane but get healing spells.........and umd.............rogues get umd as a class skill as well, same with artificers.........so they have *never* been special?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I think that giving the Barbs a good boost of DR and some PRR at capstone so that a splash can not get the bonuses would work just fine since getting a Barb to 20 is not the problem.

    as well as giving them a Vampirism based stance to feed them some self healing

    ***
    when I played my barb life (level cap was 20) I used Vampiric weapons to self heal a bit when I needed it worked quite nicely.
    No don't put it *all* in the capstone have it scaled up, at level 6/12/20 or something, so barbs can have some options for splashing and build variety like other classes but make the higher tiers worth it enough so people will have to stop and think about the trade offs.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-02-2013 at 09:12 PM.

  6. #106
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Making a barbarian that is really solid at endgame that does not have a team of healbots following him/her around sounds like a challenge. Makes me want to make one just for the challenge.
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  7. #107
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Making a barbarian that is really solid at endgame that does not have a team of healbots following him/her around sounds like a challenge. Makes me want to make one just for the challenge.
    Go for it have fun.......then you can share what you found to work with everyone else.

  8. #108
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    Default death of the barbarian

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Making a barbarian that is really solid at endgame that does not have a team of healbots following him/her around sounds like a challenge. Makes me want to make one just for the challenge.
    I tried to fight this fight for many years but U19 was the last straw and they even gave me a +20 LR as if to say, we're sorry, we know you played a barbarian for many years but it's time to let go. So I did. One with the blade simply destroyed the barbarian class. I LR"d into a 13 Fighter/6 Monk/1 Cleric and he is exponentially more fun to play. The increase in dps is massive considering I can self heal now and all the crit bonuses associated with amplifying an esos from kensai and monk. DDO is a byoh game now and if you can't people look at you like they might a skunk. That's the direction the game has gone and you have to adapt to it. Interestingly enough hit points in AD&D were never defined as your 'health'. They were an abstract representation of your heroic ability, heck even some of the feats your character gets that provide HPs reflect this like heroic inspiration. There were few classic fantasy characters more representative of this than the 'Conan' type, yet DDO barbarians have none of this ability. Barbarians are restricted to in game 'heal' sources that represent physical damage healing. At the very least a barbarian should have access to a rejuvenation cocoon type ability either in the Fury tree or the Barbarian enhancement top level tier that provides a similar effect. As it stands now any melee that takes a spell caster level will have virtually unlimited access to self healing. Yes, I suppose you could go with 18 barb/2 cleric or 2 druid, but the game has made the combination of monk and kensai enhancements so powerful and synergetic that why would you? And this of course doesn't even address how u can't use heal effects except potions while barb raged (and the rage still hurts you).

    If some sort of self healing ability isn't provided for barbarians I don't see them being used very often. There could be some 6 barb mixes out there that would be interesting. They have lost ability in every update though, slowing losing dps due to not being able to rage out and other classes drastically closing the gap in raw dps, the game moving to byoh, the emphasis on damage mitigation and usefulness of AC in a lot of content. All this stuff has chipped away at the once mighty barbarian now regulating them to the sidelines.

  9. #109
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Thus if you took a barb to level 20 with the full boost you would end up with DR of 18. Considering that their PRR is gonna be limited because of medium armor it's honestly going to be behind the SD damage3 mitigation by a fair bit and even behind a fighter in Heavy but given the Barbs increased DPS and his better HP I think it would be a solid trade.
    .
    18dr would be a joke when they can hit you for a few hundred. That's why it needs to move to prr, prr provides a % so it scales and can be effective at all levels and difficulties. DR is only effective at lower levels or epic normal and below.

  10. #110
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    I tried to fight this fight for many years but U19 was the last straw and they even gave me a +20 LR as if to say, we're sorry, we know you played a barbarian for many years but it's time to let go. So I did. One with the blade simply destroyed the barbarian class. I LR"d into a 13 Fighter/6 Monk/1 Cleric and he is exponentially more fun to play. The increase in dps is massive considering I can self heal now and all the crit bonuses associated with amplifying an esos from kensai and monk. DDO is a byoh game now and if you can't people look at you like they might a skunk. That's the direction the game has gone and you have to adapt to it. Interestingly enough hit points in AD&D were never defined as your 'health'. They were an abstract representation of your heroic ability, heck even some of the feats your character gets that provide HPs reflect this like heroic inspiration. There were few classic fantasy characters more representative of this than the 'Conan' type, yet DDO barbarians have none of this ability. Barbarians are restricted to in game 'heal' sources that represent physical damage healing. At the very least a barbarian should have access to a rejuvenation cocoon type ability either in the Fury tree or the Barbarian enhancement top level tier that provides a similar effect. As it stands now any melee that takes a spell caster level will have virtually unlimited access to self healing. Yes, I suppose you could go with 18 barb/2 cleric or 2 druid, but the game has made the combination of monk and kensai enhancements so powerful and synergetic that why would you? And this of course doesn't even address how u can't use heal effects except potions while barb raged (and the rage still hurts you).

    If some sort of self healing ability isn't provided for barbarians I don't see them being used very often. There could be some 6 barb mixes out there that would be interesting. They have lost ability in every update though, slowing losing dps due to not being able to rage out and other classes drastically closing the gap in raw dps, the game moving to byoh, the emphasis on damage mitigation and usefulness of AC in a lot of content. All this stuff has chipped away at the once mighty barbarian now regulating them to the sidelines.
    I am not sure that I quite buy a 13 fighter 6 monk 1 cleric does better dps then some 18 barb 2 X or 12 barb X X, but rather similiar dps is probably the case. The problem is not dps, but everything else lol.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Amazed no one has brought this up yet.

    Step one - Get their legs into the stirrups...

    [face_innocent]
    I was going to suggest taking them to a veterinarian.

  12. #112
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am not sure that I quite buy a 13 fighter 6 monk 1 cleric does better dps then some 18 barb 2 X or 12 barb X X, but rather similiar dps is probably the case. The problem is not dps, but everything else lol.
    We've "Sobrien" tested the barbs, they do not perform as well as the fighters.

  13. #113
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    For barbs:
    • +1 PRR for each Barb lvl, additional +10 PRR for lvl 20 barb (this PRR is stacking with everything).
    • can use clickies while raged


    For all melee attacks:
    • Each Cleave has a chance to trigger effects from tactical feats: Sunder, Trip (maybe 10% chance for each tactical feat, can proc several effects at once).
    • Each Great Cleave has a chance to trigger effects from tactical feats (if you have them): Improved Sunder/Improved Trip/Stunning Blow.
    • Each
      Hamstring/Improved Feint/Improved Sunder/Improved Trip/Sap/Slicing Blow/Stunning Blow/Whirlwind Attack
      has a chance to trigger effects from tactical feats (if you have them):
      Hamstring/Improved Feint/Improved Sunder/Improved Trip/Sap/Slicing Blow/Stunning Blow
      (and yes, it should be possible in theory to hit all enemies with all the effects using Whirlwind Attack, IF you have those feats, and keep in mind that in EE most of the DC will fail, so it's not overpowered)


    All classes:
    • All SF pots should stack up to 100 (or even 1000) and if you have 400+ SF favor then you get no penalties at all. Additionally, make new epic SF pots (ML20), which are more expensive, but also more powerful (like, costs 5 times more and heals 2 times more, or other numbers, but no astral shards in cost please).

  14. #114
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    All classes:
    • All SF pots should stack up to 100 (or even 1000)



    100% Agree with this point! The 10 stack limit has gotten to the point of being just silly at this stage of the game.

  15. #115
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We've "Sobrien" tested the barbs, they do not perform as well as the fighters.
    Suprerme Cleave is awful nice and great for charging up dreadnaught blitz and just in general. There are a lot of little things that barbarians get which your one on one laboratory tests would not take into account. Similar dps is what I am talking about.
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  16. #116
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Suprerme Cleave is awful nice and great for charging up dreadnaught blitz and just in general. There are a lot of little things that barbarians get which your one on one laboratory tests would not take into account. Similar dps is what I am talking about.
    That is true, the "laboratory" doesn't paint a complete picture. it's just the only measure that's easily available.

    but it's not like charging a blitz is in any way shape or form difficult on a non-barb.

    And you can't do any DPS when you're dead or on your back from a failed save. The defensive benefits from the kensai/monks is just so strong.

  17. #117
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am not sure that I quite buy a 13 fighter 6 monk 1 cleric does better dps then some 18 barb 2 X or 12 barb X X, but rather similiar dps is probably the case. The problem is not dps, but everything else lol.
    The biggest problem is self healing when raged. Either barbarian needs equivilent self healing when raged, or their DPS should be far enough ahead of those who can self heal that it justifies being alot harder to self heal. Im talking like 1.5x anything that can easily self heal. That way if im playing my divine I now have an internal debate if i want to play offensively and get some rangers / monks / paladins that can take care of themselves, or I can get some full retard DPS barbarians and hjeal them to victory. Right now its not even a debate, due to barbs only having ~similar DPS but far less convenient self healing.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-03-2013 at 10:44 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #118
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The biggest problem is self healing when raged. Either barbarian needs equivilent self healing when raged, or their DPS should be far enough ahead of those who can self heal that it justifies being alot harder to self heal. Im talking like 1.5x anything that can easily self heal. That way if im playing my divine I now have an internal debate if i want to play offensively and get some rangers / monks / paladins that can take care of themselves, or I can get some full retard DPS barbarians and hjeal them to victory. Right now its not even a debate, due to barbs only having ~similar DPS but far less convenient self healing.
    Well its not just about self healing it is also about damage mitigation or avoidance all of which a barbarian is bad at. If a barbarian could avoid damage better then other classes, but had no self healing that would be a way to reconcile this. A barbarian with splashes of other classes could have good physical resistance and dodge, but it is difficult to get the saves up there especially high enough to overcome the -10 to stats of silver flame pots.
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  19. #119
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    What you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    make new epic SF pots (ML20), which are more expensive, but also more powerful (like, costs 5 times more and heals 2 times more, or other numbers, but no astral shards in cost please).
    What Turbine heard:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    make new epic SF pots (ML20), which are more expensive, but also more powerful, but astral shards in cost please).

  20. #120
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Well its not just about self healing it is also about damage mitigation or avoidance all of which a barbarian is bad at. If a barbarian could avoid damage better then other classes, but had no self healing that would be a way to reconcile this. A barbarian with splashes of other classes could have good physical resistance and dodge, but it is difficult to get the saves up there especially high enough to overcome the -10 to stats of silver flame pots.
    Part of that goes right back to being able to activate items or cast when raged. One example: None of the other melee I have see any issue activating the t2GS displaement clickies I made for them, but the barbarian has to dissmiss rage to do so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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