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  1. #21
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I think the issue with barbarians is only partly due to the class itself and partly due to how endgame is run. I'll take a barbarian over nearly any other class from level 1 to 5, maybe even higher. Boosted run speed. 2 cleaves. Pile of hp and potions to cover any healing of buffs needed. Even up to about level 10 this strategy remains valid though to a lesser extent. Once pot healing can't keep up, you need to explore other options which can lessen your DPS to some degree. By the time you get to epic elite, you have twisted the barb into something that doesn't quite function the way a pure barb does or you're bringing a healbot. This is the state of the game. Most effective endgame epic elite builds have self healing in burst form which can be repeated over time. Heal, Reconstruct, etc. The days of having a dedicated healer in 6 man groups are gone for many, making the barb's rage ability a liability in many cases. Your options are chug SF pots the whole quest or give up raging for cocoon and/or scrolls. Raging also has to be worked around if you want to keep self displacement up for all fights. Other classes don't have this limitation to work around. Either click or scroll cast and engage. Not so for barbs.

    One could play a barb in a different fashion. Functioning similar to a rogue where you strike hard from behind, minimizing incoming damage. In epic elite, you will still take boatloads of damage. It's just the power that the mobs hit with. You need a burst heal when you get hit a couple times.

    There is the virtual price you pay for taking barb levels as well. You give up monk levels which are very much in flavor these days for multiclasses. It's very hard to beat Shadow Fade for defense in addition to evasion and up to 3 extra feats. You also give up paladin which seems the easiest way to get workable reflex saves for new epic elite content.

    Barbarian has so many aspects of the game working against it right now which makes it a hard class to play. It has limitations that just don't exist for other classes and combinations. You can play it, but you feel like you're tied down, not able to get the most out of the build, simply because the game has evolved to prioritize things the barbarian does not do well.
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  2. #22
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    There isn't a problem with barbarians.

    There's a problem with the way parties work in this supposedly D&D-like MMO, and barbarians are just the most obvious manifestation of that problem.

  3. #23
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    There isn't a problem with barbarians.

    There's a problem with the way parties work in this supposedly D&D-like MMO, and barbarians are just the most obvious manifestation of that problem.
    this is true. it will be a cold day in Hell when i invest in umd or take feats like maximize on my barbarian. i can play with pots, not sure why people cant do the same.

  4. #24
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    I agree there are two ways to approch the problem one extreme or the other, but there are degrees in between... lets face it Barb's are really meant to be glass cannon DPS, but at the moment the DPS just isn't worth the glass like fragility. It's hard to call a class that usually has well over a thousand HP's fragile... but I run a couple healers, they are.

    So you can make the DPS even more spiked and leave them where they are, or you can give Barbs more survivability at the expense of DPS... or compromise in between.

    I like CCW pots on sale for plat, but that's basically out of action healing/top off... The Sovereign pots in the store are a solution for so called "whales"... at something like 9tps per heal they are outrageously expensive... As for the Turn in versions (greater healing elixers) well let me tell you how non-viable that is: I turned in FOUR FREAKING YEARS OF COLLECTABLES and I got 31 greaters and 40 lessers (or whatever comes before greaters) that's 15 Alts worth of collectables over 4 years of never ever ever using any of the swaying/spore mushroom turn ins... and I got enough elixers to heal about 3 levels worth of action.

    They need to make those elixers 2 pots per 1 turn in. or start throwing around swaying/spor in the harbor like tastey hams on the day the put those in the game.

    I bought a stack of Sovereigns for my Monk (8 Fighter 12 Monk weaponised dark monk that doesn't yet have cocoon) They are a joy to have, and have saved at least 2 wipes, but at 900 something TP on sale I can't see leveling a Barb with them. I almost roled my first DDO bard when I saw these new elixers... but I'm glad I held off.

    Barbs need innate PRR, then give them Dodge as a class grant maybe give them Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack at 1st, 3rd and 6th for free. One of the problems is that like Bard, Turbine Devs think these classes are powerful, but they don't account for the fact that they can't take 2 monk or 2 Pali, and thus are proxy nerfed in the real actual game.

    While we're on the subject of improving Barb's:

    CAN I GET MY CHARGE/POMMEL SMASH/FOOT STOMP please? Give charge at 1st level a 5hp cost 30sec cooldown abudant step that knocks down opponents with a Barb level + CON mod DC this wouldn't just be a welcome addition: it would be filling a glaring absence. Then give Pommel smash (stuns one opponent same DC) around level 5 or 8. Then a class grant foot stomp say somewhere around 16th level that lets you Improved trip (again barb level plus CON for DC).

    At least give Barbs charge (and while you're at it use the same code for Paladins Shield charge).
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  5. #25
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    MOAR DPS!

    That's the fix. barbs need to do enough damage to make up for them needing a support system, if they had that things would be fine.

    I do not agree with them getting innate PRR/dodge over fighters/rangers/pallies. That stuff needs to be reserved for the Pay2win monks.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    MOAR DPS!

    That's the fix. barbs need to do enough damage to make up for them needing a support system, if they had that things would be fine.

    I do not agree with them getting innate PRR/dodge over fighters/rangers/pallies. That stuff needs to be reserved for the Pay2win monks.
    i must respectfully disagree. clearly barbarians need PTW advantages to rival PTW monks while still being balanced. the solution to this is to make a PTW barbarian class unique to the store. the store barb will come with options for PRR, dodge, concealment, healing amp, or any other manner of buff, the more options you pick the more the class will cost in TP. that way you can get the vanilla barb in the game for free as normal, or you can get the PTW eElite certified barb from the store complete with lvl20 exp and gear to match.

    you're so focused on monks that you're completely missing the bigger picture!
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  7. #27
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    1) For every dr they get give them 5 prr

    2) Remove the penalties to silver flame potions and drop the lesser silver flame potions down a rank. (You could even keep the run speed debuff on the high end ones but get rid of the stat penalty)

    3) At about 12 barbarian grant a feat that has 3 uses per rest that grants 10 temp hp and 1d6+1 for every barb level * heal skill healing every sec for 10 secs as long as the temp hp is there. (this keeps it to being an out of combat healing option) Call it Hardy recovery or something like that. Have the amount recovered effected by healing amp. Also have enhancements in one of the tree's give additional uses.

    This keeps the flavor of the class the same where they can't use scrolls etc while raged, gives them some additional defense in terms of prr since dr is essentially broken, and gives them a way to get their health back up in a game that is increasingly byoh.

  8. #28
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    i must respectfully disagree. clearly barbarians need PTW advantages to rival PTW monks while still being balanced. the solution to this is to make a PTW barbarian class unique to the store. the store barb will come with options for PRR, dodge, concealment, healing amp, or any other manner of buff, the more options you pick the more the class will cost in TP. that way you can get the vanilla barb in the game for free as normal, or you can get the PTW eElite certified barb from the store complete with lvl20 exp and gear to match.

    you're so focused on monks that you're completely missing the bigger picture!
    Oooh . . . what do we call it? A P2Barb?

    We can't forget to give them a melee instakill with a 6-second cooldown and a potential DC 15 higher than that of a maxed Pale Master. This is essential to any Pay2Win class.

  9. #29
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    MOAR DPS!

    That's the fix. barbs need to do enough damage to make up for them needing a support system, if they had that things would be fine.

    I do not agree with them getting innate PRR/dodge over fighters/rangers/pallies. That stuff needs to be reserved for the Pay2win monks.
    I actually kind of like this. This would spur more debate about forced cooperation in the discussions where people constantly declare their healer isnt a babysitter. Want the quest done faster? Get some barbarian full retard DPS on the job, and keep them healed. Or you can do it your own way, and have a bunch of self sufficient soloers in the same instance, knowing it will take longer to complete.

    It makes no sense that other classes and combos can compete with them for DPS but get far better self healing options. It also makes no sense that people do not want to allow self healing when raged, but are fully in support of self healing casters insta killing everything, which is far more powerful than barbarians rage ability in orders of magnitude.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #30
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I actually kind of like this. This would spur more debate about forced cooperation in the discussions where people constantly declare their healer isnt a babysitter. Want the quest done faster? Get some barbarian full retard DPS on the job, and keep them healed. Or you can do it your own way, and have a bunch of self sufficient soloers in the same instance, knowing it will take longer to complete.

    It makes no sense that other classes and combos can compete with them for DPS but get far better self healing options. It also makes no sense that people do not want to allow self healing when raged, but are fully in support of self healing casters insta killing everything, which is far more powerful than barbarians rage ability in orders of magnitude.
    You also need to remove scaling on Epic Elite. As it is now it's easier to solo/short-man stuff thus the need for the "hit things hard!" toon isn't so great.

    Remove scaling so soloing isn't as easy and stock in toons like this goes up.

  11. #31
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    I think another sort of "out of the box" idea for barbs would be some form of non-death disabling. The very nature of a barbarian is supposed to be that they go all out for a limited duration -- sort of like sorcerors, I suppose. (When I played my sorc life I thought of it as kind of a "spell barbarian"). Self-healing isn't viable and causes balance issues and few people want to heal any more, but dying stinks. So implement other ways for barbarians to go nuts for a limited time and then get taken out of commision without dying.

    As just one off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion, maybe barbarians could have an enhancement that lets them go as far negative in HP as they want a certain number of times per rest. While negative they'd be unconscious, and it wouldn't be possible to rouse them for X period of time, after which they'd be, say, healed to half health and resume rampaging.

    And I also agree that they should have far more DPS than other classes. The problem there is that no matter how much DPS is added, we'll still have people saying that they can kill stuff faster with their FVS or cleric than they could by keeping a barbarian alive. As I implied in my last post, the real problem is that too few people care about teamwork any more.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 10-01-2013 at 09:40 AM.

  12. #32
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You also need to remove scaling on Epic Elite. As it is now it's easier to solo/short-man stuff thus the need for the "hit things hard!" toon isn't so great.

    Remove scaling so soloing isn't as easy and stock in toons like this goes up.
    Remove it on elite period. Scaling has it's place in normals and hards for those that like to solo, but elite needs to not have it to encourage but not require grouping. If soloists are concerned about favor it can always be soloed over level for favor like how it was done when we were all new players and learning the game. I think Mr Cow when he was doing his tr diaries proved that you could level up just as fast on a hard streak as an elite streak anyways because you can complete them faster, it just requires a couple more runs on a few quests per life.

  13. #33
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Remove it on elite period. Scaling has it's place in normals and hards for those that like to solo, but elite needs to not have it to encourage but not require grouping. If soloists are concerned about favor it can always be soloed over level for favor like how it was done when we were all new players and learning the game. I think Mr Cow when he was doing his tr diaries proved that you could level up just as fast on a hard streak as an elite streak anyways because you can complete them faster, it just requires a couple more runs on a few quests per life.
    I'd be fine with that. It's probably the best idea to promote grouping.

  14. #34
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    Default More DR please.

    Damage Reduction is huge!

    We need more of this.

    The store bought potions are very nice but more DR is what is needed to balance them out imo.

  15. #35
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    Damage Reduction is huge!

    We need more of this.

    The store bought potions are very nice but more DR is what is needed to balance them out imo.
    Dr doesn't scale well once you get to epics though, prr is probably a better way to handle it at this point since it uses a % allowing it to scale to be a tangible benefit in everything from heroic casual to epic elite.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Oooh . . . what do we call it? A P2Barb?

    We can't forget to give them a melee instakill with a 6-second cooldown and a potential DC 15 higher than that of a maxed Pale Master. This is essential to any Pay2Win class.
    was thinking more BarbALaUberCarte

    yes, for insta kill the "off with their heads!" ability, restricted to female barbs only of course as arbitrary restrictions based on flavour are important. this give you a LoS insta kill ability where your barb does a /point emote. this should rival kukan-do. however just to really annoy the player base the DC is based on DEX+INT+WIS+CHA making 28 pt barbarians redundant (including my own) and spawning a whole new line of DPSly challenged barbs who are trying to get max DC on the instakill.
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  17. #37
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    hehe, ok, i suppose i should add to this thread too

    back before epics the barbs DR was a good source of damage mitigation, so i think swapping their DR for an equivalent PRR would be quite fair.

    not sure about the pot healing, part of me thinks back to NWN1 where heal pots were the main source of healing come lvl20, and part of me thinks the investment in getting UMD up to heal scroll usage shouldn't be negated by a plat option.

    stacking silver flame pots up to 100 would be a massive help, and maybe if the penalties must remain only apply the largest penalty so you can neck both pots if you can't wait for the cooldown. i'd also like to see a reduction in the plat cost as i'm cheap, and the pot/wand/scroll cost relation should be maintained, i have a funny feeling the silver pots are way above the cost you'd expect a heal pot to weigh in at.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    As just one off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion, maybe barbarians could have an enhancement that lets them go as far negative in HP as they want a certain number of times per rest. While negative they'd be unconscious, and it wouldn't be possible to rouse them for X period of time, after which they'd be, say, healed to half health and resume rampaging.
    Narcoleptic Rage?
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  19. #39
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    How about this: While Raging, (Barb Level)% of your base weapon damage is returned as Temp HP that last for 20 secs., up to 100% of your current HP.

    Barbs should be about sustained offense...they should be all about smashing things, and as long as they keep smashing things, they should be sustained. Temp-HP-on-hit converts a portion of their offense to survivability, without making it actual healing like it would if it was a Vampirism effect. Effectively, a pure barb can negate 20% of his DPS in incoming damage; as long as he's doing 5x as much damage as enemies, he'll be fine Anything more than that goes against his "permanent" HP, which means he'll have to heal once combat is over and those temp HP expire. And since DPS scales with level, the survivability scales with level.

    That also would help ameliorate the HP cost on all those new Barb skills.

    Also, convert their DR to PRR, as that scales better and is more future-proof.

  20. #40
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    i like the idea of a better PRR for barbs that scales better. their DR really isn't that great, especially getting into epics. the thing is, barbs would be considered too OP if their DR or PRR was increased a lot to really matter since they should be the most powerful melee class. i know people don't like this, especially ones who heal party members, but i like it when my barb gets hit in combat because she has a lot of guards that proc a lot, even the low % ones proc a lot.

    i was thinking too a high tier vampirism enhancement. have 3 types, a lesser a vampirism and a greater vampirism, you can spend AP on that increase your hp regen on hit. that's probably the only thing i can think of i could get behind for better self healing.

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