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  1. #81
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Yeah, that sounds about right.
    Heh, thought so. At least fighters get kensei tree and lots of feats. Barbs without rage are almost as bad as Teh_Troll :\

  2. #82
    Community Member ...v...'s Avatar
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    I tr'd my barb and the main reason was that I had to go through 9 clickies to fully rage and buff before combat but most of the time the fight was over by the time I was done. The short duration on some of their rages is just a joke. Horc barb is horrible and I hung mine up.

  3. #83
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    The best way to fix the barbarians, and indirectly other classes, would be to have potions that heal more and better access to healing amplification. I think it is time to remove the penalties for silver flame potions. Today the toons have much more hit points than when first were created these potions. It is time to remove the penalties for those potions (and this could encourage the purchase of Necropolis).
    The problem with making something better that also affects other classes is that it wouldn't necessarily encourage players to make Barbarians. Why would it suddenly encourage me to roll a Barbarian when my other characters could make at least as much use of them as well? Giving Barbarians better access to healing amplification is more ideal in my opinion. Potions are nice, but ultimately the healing-capable players are going to be the one tasked with keeping the Barbarian alive and as they become easier to heal we'll become more likely to want them in party.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    The problem with making something better that also affects other classes is that it wouldn't necessarily encourage players to make Barbarians. Why would it suddenly encourage me to roll a Barbarian when my other characters could make at least as much use of them as well? Giving Barbarians better access to healing amplification is more ideal in my opinion. Potions are nice, but ultimately the healing-capable players are going to be the one tasked with keeping the Barbarian alive and as they become easier to heal we'll become more likely to want them in party.
    Good point, any change would need to be exclusive to the Barbarian class for it to make the class itself more attractive.

    If that is something in the Enhancments that allow it to heal better, say, a +PRR while raged, an ability to drink more then one potion at a time while raged, or even have something where they have a innate vamperic effect while raged, would all do well to augment the class itself without shifting the power balance of the game.

  5. #85
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    All class-granted DR (except maybe monks, because they have a source of PRR with stances automatically) need to also grant some form of PRR. Chiefly, this is Barbs and FVS.

    They also need to really look at "rage" types, and key abilities of various items to work while "raged". This isn't clean currently, and makes for some idiotic problems chiefly with suckiness with Barbarians of all types and War Chanters. Which ones are "rage" bonuses, which ones are "morale" ... which ones are completely overshadowed by Primal Scream, which ones are still relevant, etc. That whole thing needs a clean-up.

    Barbs could also use some "vigor of life" healing amp.
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  6. #86
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    what if we took the effective % damage reduction barbs had back at the lvl20 cap via their DR and work it so they have the same % damage reduction through the new PRR system? it's perfectly thematic as the whole point in their DR is to embody their natural hardiness, PRR also fits that description.

    that, along with the new defensive layers for extra miss chances, should help the barb get back to their old feel at the lvl20 cap, sure it doesn't fix the healing issue, but it's a step in the right direction.

    outside of epic elites where a large chunk of the player base will be i think silver flame pots are doing the trick. with a 28 pt dwarf that dumped all the relevant stats i've managed to munch tomes and pick up cheap items to enable him to use silvers. the penalties, especially movement, are a massive pain in the rump, but my biggest bugbear is the max 10 in a stack. if i could stack 100 i'd be a lot happier. i also hate the price, pots should cost more than wands and scrolls, but not that much more. their cost should be relative to the heal scroll cost. yes i'm a cheap ass vet but i don't like throwing myself into a quest and chugging more in pots than i get back as loot. i do it now and then just to see if i can, but i don't do it as regular adventuring. another irritation is the debuff from both types of pots stacks, if they changed it so only the largest debuff applied that would also help things.

    finally there is the work to get them. i don't begrudge the time i spent farming favour, but i do think there should be another option open to all when CSW pots start to wane before you can grab silver favour. maybe we should hook it into total favour, give us vendors we can unlock at each favour mark that sell better healing pots. unlock drow and cheaper CSW pots (for those not in guilds), unlock vet and cure crit pots. unlock 32 pt builds and higher level CCW pots and so on. have the silvers as a premium pot because they need real cash investment in premium packs.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I think this is the best choice. Adding extra DR or abilites to barbs is a bad idea as is giving them extra feats. You increase their power then devs will increase monster power and/or players of other classes will say they need a boost its a nasty circle.
    But they are going to do that anyway! Power creep is is the motto of this dev team. Personally, I like the idea of both upping their DR a bit and giving them x amount of PRR per DR point.

  8. #88
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    The way to solve this problem is to stop arcane wf from casting repair. WF repairing is BS. Healing twists are BS. It's not the way DnD is supposed to be.

    Healing is the only thing that is supposed to make Divines special. IT'S THEIR PURPOSE.

    With arcanes self healing and all the melee's using the magic cheating healing twist it makes all the other classes feel like they deserve it too.

    Not WAI. Well it's working and it has made divine healing builds obsolete. And the problem is snowballing.
    Last edited by capsela; 10-02-2013 at 12:34 PM.

  9. #89
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Amazed no one has brought this up yet.

    Step one - Get their legs into the stirrups...

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  10. #90
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    MOAR DPS!

    That's the fix. barbs need to do enough damage to make up for them needing a support system, if they had that things would be fine.

    I do not agree with them getting innate PRR/dodge over fighters/rangers/pallies. That stuff needs to be reserved for the Pay2win monks.
    But, you know, the community tends to demand byoh from everybody in a group. If people followed your suggestion then we had *gasp* old rolemodels again and it cannot be that anybody tells me how to hjeal or play my character. It cannot be that somebody asks for a buff, which only my class provides. Because giving away buffs is babysitting.....

    See where the problem lies? And then, a Barbarian cannot have 100% guaranteed first turn kills. The mobs have to much hp for that. And thus, the Barbarian class does not fit to current playstyle. But I am sure the dev.s know about it and never had the intention to make this f2p class a p2p class by demanding those HoT pot.s on gold table.....

    bottom line:
    The community develops its own style of endgame toons and the dev.s design with their own agenda in mind, but forget telling us that they want us to play their way instead of our own way.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 10-02-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  11. #91
    Community Member smckelv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    But I am sure the dev.s know about it and never had the intention to make this f2p class a p2p class by demanding those HoT pot.s on gold table.....
    By that logic Fighters and Rangers should also be relegated to the dustbins in favour of bought classes. Or maybe the fact half-orcs are paid race (the singe most popular barbarian race) would do much to tender devs affections for some Barbarian love.
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  12. #92
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    puhlease, people will learn to toggle defensive stance.
    Still wouldnt last a week.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #93
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    But, you know, the community tends to demand byoh from everybody in a group. If people followed your suggestion then we had *gasp* old rolemodels again and it cannot be that anybody tells me how to hjeal or play my character. It cannot be that somebody asks for a buff, which only my class provides. Because giving away buffs is babysitting.....

    See where the problem lies? And then, a Barbarian cannot have 100% guaranteed first turn kills. The mobs have to much hp for that. And thus, the Barbarian class does not fit to current playstyle. But I am sure the dev.s know about it and never had the intention to make this f2p class a p2p class by demanding those HoT pot.s on gold table.....

    bottom line:
    The community develops its own style of endgame toons and the dev.s design with their own agenda in mind, but forget telling us that they want us to play their way instead of our own way.
    The issue with the community is some of the forumites act like its an all or nothing discussion where Im either never healing / buffing you or Im your babysitter and am only there to keep you propped up. I see more of this on the forums than I see in game however. One good option if people dont want to allow self healing when raged like other classes can, is to have barbarians do alot more DPS than their self healing counterparts. While nothing requires a barbarian, quests would complete alot faster with a few in the group if someone is willing to heal. If we want those in the community who prefer to not cooperate in groups to step back into line, there has to be a reason to. Right now there is not because people can build complete self healing toons that do most of the DPS of a specialist toon.

    Meanwhile in other news, those other f2p classes, wizards and sorcs, can get self healing far better than any barbarian with either no sacrifice to character power, or very minimal sacrifice to character power. The minute we start using the same standards for them as we do for barbarians it will become a completely different discussion.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    The way to solve this problem is to stop arcane wf from casting repair. WF repairing is BS. Healing twists are BS. It's not the way DnD is supposed to be.

    Healing is the only thing that is supposed to make Divines special. IT'S THEIR PURPOSE.

    With arcanes self healing and all the melee's using the magic cheating healing twist it makes all the other classes feel like they deserve it too.

    Not WAI. Well it's working and it has made divine healing builds obsolete. And the problem is snowballing.
    Ugh, healbots nanying dependent classes sounds unfun in the extreme.

  15. #95
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Healing is the only thing that is supposed to make Divines special. IT'S THEIR PURPOSE.
    So according to you a divine's only purpose is to be a healer? That's very narrow minded. To me a divine is simply someone who obtains their spells from a divine source. Whether they choose to use these for making themselves better at healing or something entirely different is up to the player to choose. I should consider myself lucky I don't have the misfortune of being in any D&D group you are part of because it would be a very dull party.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 10-02-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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  16. #96
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The issue with the community is some of the forumites act like its an all or nothing discussion where Im either never healing / buffing you or Im your babysitter and am only there to keep you propped up. I see more of this on the forums than I see in game however. One good option if people dont want to allow self healing when raged like other classes can, is to have barbarians do alot more DPS than their self healing counterparts. While nothing requires a barbarian, quests would complete alot faster with a few in the group if someone is willing to heal. If we want those in the community who prefer to not cooperate in groups to step back into line, there has to be a reason to. Right now there is not because people can build complete self healing toons that do most of the DPS of a specialist toon.

    Meanwhile in other news, those other f2p classes, wizards and sorcs, can get self healing far better than any barbarian with either no sacrifice to character power, or very minimal sacrifice to character power. The minute we start using the same standards for them as we do for barbarians it will become a completely different discussion.
    I see the extremes here and I witnessed them ingame. It is more prevalent in groups/guilds/channels, where high difficulty is daily schedule. It is there in the game community. It jut seems that several fractions of certain attitudes take this game serious enough to meet here on the forum and share or discuss or fight witch each other.

    However the effect is the same. I, for example, need a hireling on my barb despite of high PRR, dodge, displacement clickies, healing spring, SF pot.s asoasof. While on actually every other class I don't. Why? Because Barbarian Rage prevents all utility With Stormhorns and those assassins even ehard mobs have bloated hp so that the DPS compensation is not there. I feel that 7,8k crit.s (blitzing ofc.) on non helpless mobs are quite good but looking at hp bars of certain giants it seems like a tickle. How much do people need to steroid their Barbs then, when with other melee (or hybrids) ideas, like Sithali or general Rangers I can have all with less effort?
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 10-02-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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  17. #97
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smckelv View Post
    By that logic Fighters and Rangers should also be relegated to the dustbins in favour of bought classes. Or maybe the fact half-orcs are paid race (the singe most popular barbarian race) would do much to tender devs affections for some Barbarian love.
    Well,I see a clear favor for all characters with utility in all combat situations. Except Barbarians. I made this cynical comment, because I think there is a big imbalance currently and the dev.s forgot the rage feature in relation to all new powaz.
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  18. #98
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    I see the extremes here and I witnessed them ingame. It is more prevalent in groups/guilds/channels, where high difficulty is daily schedule. It is there in the game community. It jut seems that several fractions of certain attitudes take this game serious enough to meet here on the forum and share or discuss or fight witch each other.

    However the effect is the same. I, for example, need a hireling on my barb despite of high PRR, dodge, displacement clickies, healing spring, SF pot.s asoasof. While on actually every other class I don't. Why? Because Barbarian Rage prevents all utility With Stormhorns and those assassins even ehard mobs have bloated hp so that the DPS compensation is not there. I feel that 7,8k crit.s (blitzing ofc.) on non helpless mobs are quite good but looking at hp bars of certain giants it seems like a tickle. How much do people need to steroid their Barbs then, when with other melee (or hybrids) ideas, like Sithali or general Rangers I can have all with less effort?
    That would the problem of game design and not the class. The problem is actually the limited abilities and actions of mobs. Ever noticed how many times in a fight enemy casters spam the same spells, run away when the are 1hp from death or spam trip like there's no cool down? I'm sure its tough to allow mobs the capability of using a couple of other spells or react a little differently in certain situations, but the bloated HP is what appears to be the trade off. This is the fix that is actually needed.

  19. #99
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I'm sure its tough to allow mobs the capability of using a couple of other spells or react a little differently in certain situations, but the bloated HP is what appears to be the trade off.
    I would be happy with them having a limited SP pool and longer cooldowns on some abilities. Having to deal with enemies who will sit there and spam one spell over and over is very obnoxious. Especially when it is either a self heal or a dispel.
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  20. #100
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    So according to you a divine's only purpose is to be a healer? That's very narrow minded. To me a divine is simply someone who obtains their spells from a divine source. Whether they choose to use these for making themselves better at healing or something entirely different is up to the player to choose. I should consider myself lucky I don't have the misfortune of being in any D&D group you are part of because it would be a very dull party.
    Maybe this mentality comes from PnP and they are transferring it to DDO?

    Point 1
    PnP - At the early levels Divines were "Nanny's" for the group (i.e. your RL friends) and I think everyone was fine with that.
    DDO - You mostly run with strangers (or at least the majority of us) or people we only know online. That same "sacrifice" isn't there to play "nanny."

    Point 2
    PnP - As you level, the Divine becomes a more integral part of the machine as Divine (all spell casters really) become exponentially more powerful (3rd Ed.) Non-divines begin relying on Healing Potions and other wonders of the magic universe so that Divines don't use up all of their most powerful spells (They don't have SP's )

    DDO - The Divine is a separate part of the machine in DDO. They make life easier which allows everyone to do their job better but they are no longer integral. Compounding the problem is point #1. Neither party has a basic reason to run with the other, especially with all of the berating Divines (CC wizards) can get in party chat.

    DDO - Divines (but really all spell casters) power was (is?) exponentially better than non-casters, as DDO which is still loosely based on 3rd ed, is set-up this way. This rubs non-casters raw because they feel they should be king of the kill counts. You can find multiple posts on the forums. Pale Masters received the brunt of the scorn and are being artificially held back because of this sect of the community.

    Maybe this is why people try to pigeonhole Divines. I know I do it unconsciously sometimes.

    How this relates to the OP I am not sure. I know people want more DPS, but I am not sure how that is possible without unbalancing the other classes.
    Increasing (significantly) DR and PRR while raged I am more than fine with, as thematically this fits in with the class.
    More healing amplification I would be fine with as long as it was a granted ability at Barbarian 12 or higher to keep the class balanced with other classes.
    Increased saves. I already commented on my original post on page 1. There is a reason a lot of people are splashing 2 Paladin on their builds (and/or 2 monk). It follows the philosophy of the Tempest Exploiter build, just modernized for today's DDO.

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