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  1. #1
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Default Item Crafting from Spells

    I know it'd be quite complex, but I've been mulling over how cool it would be to have the ability to craft spells into items. Just a few of my thoughts on what it could include.


    • Would require a scroll of the spell, and the material components
    • A flat platinum cost, based off the SP cost of the spell
    • number of uses per day determined by spell level (for sake of example, let's say 5/day for 1-3rd spell, 3/day for 4-6th, and 1/day for 7-9th)
    • item level would be player-determined by choosing spell caster level (so you could make a min level 10 haste ring and a min level 28 haste ring as a capped wizard)
    • An experience point cost to add metamagics to the spell
    • Spells could only be put onto certain items based on the spell (boots only for haste?)
    • 1/character, like most clickies



    Some of the more ludicrous examples of things players might love to have that might be considered too OP, and hypothetical costs:

    Ring of Heal, 3/day. Min level 12
    Cost: One scroll of Heal. 40,000 plat (sp cost 40 x 1,000 plat). XP cost 10,000 XP (10 sp to add Empower Heal x 1,000 XP)
    Usage: Heals ~158 HP (120 base * 1.32 (half spellpower from empower heal)). No UMD required.

    Boots of Haste, 5/day. Min Level 20

    Cost: one Scroll of Haste. 20,000 Plat. XP Cost 10,000 XP (for extend)
    Usage: 4 minutes of Haste (2 minute base duration x2 extend) per click.

    Helm of Wail of the Banshee, 1/day. min Level 17
    Cost: One scroll of Wail of the Banshee (rare scroll). 50,000 plat.
    Usage: One cast of Wail, DC 19.

    Particularly for spells with DCs, doesn't seem like it would be too dangerous. And it would be advantageous to non-spellcasting classes and to players who don't want to have to invest into UMD too heavily.
    Last edited by Fefnir_2011; 09-30-2013 at 11:05 PM.
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    I know it'd be quite complex, but I've been mulling over how cool it would be to have the ability to craft spells into items. Just a few of my thoughts on what it could include.


    • Would require a scroll of the spell, and the material components
    • A flat platinum cost, based off the SP cost of the spell
    • number of uses per day determined by spell level (for sake of example, let's say 5/day for 1-3rd spell, 3/day for 4-6th, and 1/day for 7-9th)
    • item level would be player-determined by choosing spell caster level (so you could make a min level 10 haste ring and a min level 28 haste ring as a capped wizard)
    • An experience point cost to add metamagics to the spell
    • Spells could only be put onto certain items based on the spell (boots only for haste?)
    • 1/character, like most clickies



    Some of the more ludicrous examples of things players might love to have that might be considered too OP, and hypothetical costs:

    Ring of Heal, 3/day. Min level 12
    Cost: One scroll of Heal. 40,000 plat (sp cost 40 x 1,000 plat). XP cost 10,000 XP (10 sp to add Empower Heal x 1,000 XP)
    Usage: Heals ~158 HP (120 base * 1.32 (half spellpower from empower heal)). No UMD required.

    Boots of Haste, 5/day. Min Level 20

    Cost: one Scroll of Haste. 20,000 Plat. XP Cost 10,000 XP (for extend)
    Usage: 4 minutes of Haste (2 minute base duration x2 extend) per click.

    Helm of Wail of the Banshee, 1/day. min Level 17
    Cost: One scroll of Wail of the Banshee (rare scroll). 50,000 plat.
    Usage: One cast of Wail, DC 19.

    Particularly for spells with DCs, doesn't seem like it would be too dangerous. And it would be advantageous to non-spellcasting classes and to players who don't want to have to invest into UMD too heavily.
    You do know in 3E+ D20 based D&D such crafting does exist, but is also in the realm of spell casters alone to forge as it frankly should be.

    The so called failure of crafting systems we have here in DDO is a by product of a vocal minority of purely non caster playing forumites who *****ed and monaed that it was unfair that casters should alone be able ot craft, at the same time casters *****ed about having to sacrifice offensive casting feats for crafting feats, as if haggle bot bards and pure nanny bot clerics couldnt scrape up the feats to also double as crafting builds.

    The simple fact is much of the monty haul power creep could have been avoided if the original rules for magic items had been kept, BS named items that break the rules like most raid gear had never been added, and the items and economy where all driven by players rather then random loot generation.

  3. #3
    Community Member MagicalDad's Avatar
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    Default What about scroll-scribing?

    Scribing scrolls is pretty iconic P&P ability - Wizards are best at it, but all casting classes can scribe scrolls for spells they can cast. So, perhaps it can be like crafting - you can level up your 'penmanship' by crafting low-level spells scrolls, and gradually work up to higher level spells. Costs would be plat + spell components (omni dust or stones?). Eventually you would be able acquire 'Masterful Penmanship' to either decrease the UMD required to cast the scroll or to increase the casting level. Higher level for unbound, of course, so high level scribes can recoup their expenses, while lower-level scribes can still make arcane/divine rare scrolls for their bard/rogue/arti toons.

    Odds to successfully create a scroll would be something like (caster level x casting stat modifier + spellcraft + umd) / spell level. That way a lvl 20 wizard with a 50 int would have a roughly 40% chance on a Wail scroll, and no-fail on something like Fire Shield.
    Khyber, Leader of Elite Empire: Veryunique - Wiz20/Epic8 (PM, PL: Clr,Fvs), Skullcrshr - Pal20/Epic8 (PL: Barb, Ftrx2),
    Elsir - Brd12/Ftr4/Rog2/Epic7 (Swash, PL: Rgr,Mnk,Rog,Art,Drd,Clr), TheMadness - Sorc 14 (PL: Sorc, Wiz, Clr)

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalDad View Post
    Scribing scrolls is pretty iconic P&P ability - Wizards are best at it, but all casting classes can scribe scrolls for spells they can cast. So, perhaps it can be like crafting - you can level up your 'penmanship' by crafting low-level spells scrolls, and gradually work up to higher level spells. Costs would be plat + spell components (omni dust or stones?). Eventually you would be able acquire 'Masterful Penmanship' to either decrease the UMD required to cast the scroll or to increase the casting level. Higher level for unbound, of course, so high level scribes can recoup their expenses, while lower-level scribes can still make arcane/divine rare scrolls for their bard/rogue/arti toons.

    Odds to successfully create a scroll would be something like (caster level x casting stat modifier + spellcraft + umd) / spell level. That way a lvl 20 wizard with a 50 int would have a roughly 40% chance on a Wail scroll, and no-fail on something like Fire Shield.
    Honestly that works great in pnp but horribly in an mmo. If you introduce a grind, you have to have an equivalently useful grind for all classes or it creates major flaws in the game.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    You do know in 3E+ D20 based D&D such crafting does exist, but is also in the realm of spell casters alone to forge as it frankly should be.
    I was flipping through my 3.5e core books while I was thinking about this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus
    Honestly that works great in pnp but horribly in an mmo. If you introduce a grind, you have to have an equivalently useful grind for all classes or it creates major flaws in the game.
    Why? Elaborate, please. In a cooperative game, how does giving one class an ability another class doesn't have create flaws? How is his idea any different than if Fighters could custom-forge weapons and armor?

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalDad
    What about scroll-scribing?
    And wand-crafting as well would be neat. Or an actual Ring of Spell Storing. An item you could cast a spell into for later use.
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    Why? Elaborate, please. In a cooperative game, how does giving one class an ability another class doesn't have create flaws? How is his idea any different than if Fighters could custom-forge weapons and armor?
    If you give them the ability to create weapons and armor, there was nothing about it in the post. But lets say you stick to the pnp rules, I haven't looked at them in a long time but I don't remember pure non-casting melee's being able to make any time of "enchanted" armor. This would lead casting classes to get a massive boost in power while melee's get nothing. Yes ddo and dnd has aspects of combat that are unbalanced already but everything is functional. Outside of a pnp group this kind of functional power with the economy would create weird social effects.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    I was flipping through my 3.5e core books while I was thinking about this.




    Why? Elaborate, please. In a cooperative game, how does giving one class an ability another class doesn't have create flaws? How is his idea any different than if Fighters could custom-forge weapons and armor?



    And wand-crafting as well would be neat. Or an actual Ring of Spell Storing. An item you could cast a spell into for later use.
    my most beloved character in PnP was an old school elven fighter mage who practiced the way or the blade song( a fighting style so amazing and only possessed by centuries old elves, and impossible for anyone with a span of life measured in decades to achieve) he was the kind of character that carried a collection of weapons, among them spell storing ones, and kept in an item known as a bracelet of many charms, one worn on each wrist containing a dozen swords each and capable of being unleashed with a mere thought. Even in PnP 2nd ed when we converted to the spells and powers spell point system, my character who had eventually aquired the fabled ring of kings( a ring of infinite spell storing bascially) would then go on to spend centuries of dumping every days alotment of spell points into the ring.

    Its these things I believe that where likely not only done by myself at table tops that lead to an emotinal scarring for avid warrior centric players of races like dwarves who came to see all things arcane as abominable and why things like 4E where eventually spawned based on the QQing of a vocal group of *******.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If you give them the ability to create weapons and armor, there was nothing about it in the post. But lets say you stick to the pnp rules, I haven't looked at them in a long time but I don't remember pure non-casting melee's being able to make any time of "enchanted" armor. This would lead casting classes to get a massive boost in power while melee's get nothing. Yes ddo and dnd has aspects of combat that are unbalanced already but everything is functional. Outside of a pnp group this kind of functional power with the economy would create weird social effects.
    not wierd social effects, needed ones. socially non casters should feel beholden to and beneath the heel of non casters, this is a fact in all sword and sorcery settings. Magic rules steel serves. Even conan was in fact nothing next to the power of characters in his setting like Tsoth Lanti who could of killed conan with little more then a thought.

    In a world like say the forgotten realms settings world of Toril, its the fact the red wizards are effectively a magic item manufactury with a chain of stores in the form of red wizard diplomatic enclaves across their world, is what gives them such acceptance inspite of openly practicing slavery and necromancy. Infact even in lands where such practices are forbidden enclaves are allowed to keep their slaves and practice raising the undead. All because of people wanting to buy their magic items.

    We would never have seen such social issues like the era of arcanes being buff bots and divines nanny bots if those muscle bound meat heads had to depend on them for making their items. And it would of been a much better DDO for it.

    crafting and those who practice it in games where it can be useful truly even the main way to gain the top items, often sees those who practice crafting become amng the wealthiest and most socially influential on their games servers, and its as it should be. DDO giving crafting so generic and open to all only made it that much less appealing to all but those who used it mainly for self twinking or trying to gouge players.

    Not to mention if the majority of top end gear was in the domain of player crafters alone to produce, it would allow them to also influence indirectly by placing racial, class, and alignment restrictions, what players might prefer playing. If for example all the elven wizards where making items no orc scum could touch, how many might stop playing those ugly walking abominations that pollute the fair streets of the Reach.

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    not wierd social effects, needed ones. socially non casters should feel beholden to and beneath the heel of non casters, this is a fact in all sword and sorcery settings.
    .
    Sounds like a fast way to drive off customers, lose money and lose your job. You just made my point. So why would a dev that wants the game to continue so they can continue to get a paycheck want to do this?

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If you give them the ability to create weapons and armor, there was nothing about it in the post. But lets say you stick to the pnp rules, I haven't looked at them in a long time but I don't remember pure non-casting melee's being able to make any time of "enchanted" armor. This would lead casting classes to get a massive boost in power while melee's get nothing. Yes ddo and dnd has aspects of combat that are unbalanced already but everything is functional. Outside of a pnp group this kind of functional power with the economy would create weird social effects.
    There should be a balance to some extent in DDO. And I totally understand the concern that it would unbalance the economy if casters were mass producing useful wondrous items. But there's no sense in complaining about the fact that spellcasters can, well, cast spells. In fact, introducing clickie crafting as the dominion of casters would bring some balance to Cannith Crafting, where hagglebots and artificers are the best choice for crafting now. And even if non-casting melees can't make clickies, there are other things that could be their domain.


    • Give them the ability to buy raw materials to make items. It's perfectly fair to let a fighter/barbarian/paladin/etc be the only person who can craft Mithral Bracers.
    • Let them be able to make blanks of special material, like a Silver Longsword.
    • Let them craft martial feats into items, like crafting innate Dodge or Mobility into a suit of armor, or crafting IC:slashing onto a greataxe(stacking with keen).
    • Let them be the only ones who can make raw materials that could be used for crafting elsewhere (melt a Cold Iron Handaxe down into a Cold Iron Ingot).


    No need to deny a class, and a community, a useful talent because it "isn't fair" to other classes. Especially when there's other ways to balance abilities.


    Also, I forgot one other thought I had. Why can't I disjunct an item for crafting with Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


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