Page 11 of 20 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 391
  1. #201
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My experience wasn't that it was more challenging except for solo leveling in trinity mmo's. (you have no dps in those) My experience with why I hate it is that you get the blame in any pug regardless of if people were standing in pools of acid and fire while pulling 20 more mobs than they could handle, then fly off the handle at you. It's why even though I've always had a capped healer in any game I've played for my guild runs, I almost never ever pugged them.
    That is one of the things that makes them so fun. Most MMO's are not that difficult. They are made for normal people to play. Which means if you have 15 years of MMO experience like some of us do they are not that challenging. The challenge of playing a healer in MMO's is keeping people alive in spite of their stupidity. What should be an easy run is made difficult by the poor choices made by your fellow party members and that adds fun, challenge, and excitement.

    DDO is no different. If you want a challenge then PUG. PUGs are where the challenge is because you never know what quality of players you are going to end up with and you never know what decisions they will make. It makes for a chaotic time which increases the challenge and unpredictability of the run. People sometimes mention that PvP is where the fun is because you have a human AI. In a PvE game PUGs are where the fun is because you have humans in your group that sometimes behave as if they are trying to get the group killed (though usually not on purpose). It accomplishes the same goal as PvP (namely unpredictable behavior that makes for an exciting time) while still getting to work together as a team.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  2. #202
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    west coast U.S.A
    Posts
    1,300

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    While I agree with you that EE is terrible (the whole game went in the wrong direction when it made us do a ton of damage and gave opponents a ton of health to make up for it), PvP is even worse. More importantly, PvP is nothing like real tabletop D&D because the entire goal of PvP is the opposite of tabletop D&D. The goal of the DM in D&D is to design encounters that the players will beat that are fun for the players. In other words, the primary goal of the DM is to lose the fight, while making sure the players have a good time. The primary goal of the opposing team in PvP is to make sure you lose and they almost never care about you at all (and frequently take personal enjoyment from knowing you are not having a good time). Facing off against another thinking human being is the only thing tabletop D&D and MMO PvP have in common and it certainly is not enough to seriously compare the two.

    Beyond that I have to agree with you that basing MMO's around gear collection rather than character growth has been a bad move in every MMO. We only keep gear temporarily (i.e. until we find something better to replace it with) and thus collecting it will always be a waste of time.
    no a DM is not suppose to ever just plan on losing any fight. certainly there are degrees of challenge, but for a DM each encounter can be designed to steadily weaken and wear down the party, at least if that is what the main villain of the campaign, or the current foe for the session is capable of. That is such a Y2K+ RPGA attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact anyone who thinks like that wouldnt last a second in an oldschool character grinder adventure like the tomb of forgotton horrors or temple of elemental evil. Let alone something as notorious for end of campaign quests like the Apocolypse stone, an adventure that literally cant be beaten by the players, and its probably one of the finest pre made modules ever published.

    This idea that players are suppose to win is indeed connected to MMO really, and in MMO yes I do expect to always win with a half way decently made character. Anything better then average I expect to dominate with, anything below average I expect to be challenged by using, its that simple.

    But at the table top, thinking a DM is not going to kill your character randomly with a trap, a sucker punch spell, or having an assassin slit your characters throat in the middle of the night, then you have not played real D&D you played some kind of munchkin fest for kiddies.

    In big boy D&D the DM is a brutal advesary who exists to not just narrate a story, and progress the adventure, but to embrace the minds of countless characters who exist solely to see the party dead or far worse. I myself once as a young DM even had to have a girl player take me aside and tell me to stop coddeling her character, an elf priestess who had been captured by orcs. She insisted they at least threaten her with rape and torture, and not keep her unharmed because she was too precious a prize to simply abuse. In other words it was the girl who wanted to not be treated special, or see the game be kept at a pg 13 rating just for her. Since then Ive grown up, and now days if you run at my table top and are 15+ gawds help you if your captured by anything evil and brutal like orcs. It will more then likely resemble something from the serbian film, then LOTR.

    No my friends, DMs do not exist to help you win, they are their to challenge you as a character builder, role player, and especially as a tactician. If you slip up too badly or too often, you wont just feel a spanking, you will feel a noose. If your too confident, you will die in your bed against a foe who cant fail to sneak up and slit your throat, if your too afraid, you will be driven mad by bunnies leaping in the bushes, and if just the right mixture of everything, you may play your DM long enough to blind side him with a character build he didnt see coming, a plan he couldnt imagine, and become a legend at your table top for the decades to come.

    A game of table top is for the DM the ultimate form of PVP and for the players as well it is the endless sense of facing a foe greater in power then any mere god, they are facing the equivalent of that artist brush that would **** with daffy duck on old loony tune shorts. It is only the rules, and the oath each GM takes while having palm on the cover of their manual that keeps it fair for both sides at all, fair in the sense there are thingsa GM should not ever do, but players should not take for granted that what they think they know is not what is in fact at hand either.

    Seriously these ****ing kids who played with daddy for a DM and mommy on the cleric to nanny them are getting to vocal and numerous as they enter the teens.

  3. #203
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I don't pug heavily anymore, but occassional pugging lets you continue to meet new players and it's one of the things that I think will eventually really hurt ddo, the pug scene has multiple problems. Yes I could never pug again if I wanted to but when you get to that point where there is no one pugging you're probably in maint mode.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    While I think you need to invest in meeting people to get a better friends list.
    On the one hand you seem to be saying that it is a good idea to occasionally PUG because it is good for the game (which I agree with), but then you say it is no big deal if you can't get into PUGs because everyone should just have a friends list to group with anyway.

    In my opinion, anything that discourages PUGs is bad for the long term health of the game. People do eventually leave games never to return so the only way to keep a game alive is to add new players. New players will never make it onto your friends list unless you PUG or they happen by purely random luck to become a member of your exact guild. PUGs are the introduction to any game and when they are terrible (or rare) it is unhelpful if the goal is to attract and retain new players. If tripling the experience for EE causes PUGs to be less welcoming of newer players (as the post you were replying to said) then it is a bad idea to triple the experience.

    The trouble with a person that never PUGs is that they basically don't exist (that does not mean I am saying they are uncommon). The only people that would ever even know if they left are the people on their friends list and in their guild (which is only going to be a tiny portion of their server) because they are basically a MMO "hermit" that never leaves their own property. This kind of player does little to help the game last because they do little to make the game experience pleasant for the most important group of people, the ones that are trying to decide if the game is worth playing long term. I am not saying these people don't have the right to exist, merely that anything that encourages this type of behavior (and leads more people down this path) is not going to be good for the long term health of the game.

    TL;DR - The more people that only play with their friends (or by themselves) the faster the game will die.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  4. #204
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    no a DM is not suppose to ever just plan on losing any fight. certainly there are degrees of challenge, but for a DM each encounter can be designed to steadily weaken and wear down the party, at least if that is what the main villain of the campaign, or the current foe for the session is capable of. That is such a Y2K+ RPGA attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact anyone who thinks like that wouldnt last a second in an oldschool character grinder adventure like the tomb of forgotton horrors or temple of elemental evil. Let alone something as notorious for end of campaign quests like the Apocolypse stone, an adventure that literally cant be beaten by the players, and its probably one of the finest pre made modules ever published.

    This idea that players are suppose to win is indeed connected to MMO really, and in MMO yes I do expect to always win with a half way decently made character. Anything better then average I expect to dominate with, anything below average I expect to be challenged by using, its that simple.

    But at the table top, thinking a DM is not going to kill your character randomly with a trap, a sucker punch spell, or having an assassin slit your characters throat in the middle of the night, then you have not played real D&D you played some kind of munchkin fest for kiddies.

    In big boy D&D the DM is a brutal advesary who exists to not just narrate a story, and progress the adventure, but to embrace the minds of countless characters who exist solely to see the party dead or far worse. I myself once as a young DM even had to have a girl player take me aside and tell me to stop coddeling her character, an elf priestess who had been captured by orcs. She insisted they at least threaten her with rape and torture, and not keep her unharmed because she was too precious a prize to simply abuse. In other words it was the girl who wanted to not be treated special, or see the game be kept at a pg 13 rating just for her. Since then Ive grown up, and now days if you run at my table top and are 15+ gawds help you if your captured by anything evil and brutal like orcs. It will more then likely resemble something from the serbian film, then LOTR.

    No my friends, DMs do not exist to help you win, they are their to challenge you as a character builder, role player, and especially as a tactician. If you slip up too badly or too often, you wont just feel a spanking, you will feel a noose. If your too confident, you will die in your bed against a foe who cant fail to sneak up and slit your throat, if your too afraid, you will be driven mad by bunnies leaping in the bushes, and if just the right mixture of everything, you may play your DM long enough to blind side him with a character build he didnt see coming, a plan he couldnt imagine, and become a legend at your table top for the decades to come.

    A game of table top is for the DM the ultimate form of PVP and for the players as well it is the endless sense of facing a foe greater in power then any mere god, they are facing the equivalent of that artist brush that would **** with daffy duck on old loony tune shorts. It is only the rules, and the oath each GM takes while having palm on the cover of their manual that keeps it fair for both sides at all, fair in the sense there are thingsa GM should not ever do, but players should not take for granted that what they think they know is not what is in fact at hand either.

    Seriously these ****ing kids who played with daddy for a DM and mommy on the cleric to nanny them are getting to vocal and numerous as they enter the teens.
    Um, sure. Except a DM can kill any character at any time with three words. So not so much PvP. Four words and it's a wipe.

  5. #205
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    On the one hand you seem to be saying that it is a good idea to occasionally PUG because it is good for the game (which I agree with), but then you say it is no big deal if you can't get into PUGs because everyone should just have a friends list to group with anyway.

    In my opinion, anything that discourages PUGs is bad for the long term health of the game. People do eventually leave games never to return so the only way to keep a game alive is to add new players. New players will never make it onto your friends list unless you PUG or they happen by purely random luck to become a member of your exact guild. PUGs are the introduction to any game and when they are terrible (or rare) it is unhelpful if the goal is to attract and retain new players. If tripling the experience for EE causes PUGs to be less welcoming of newer players (as the post you were replying to said) then it is a bad idea to triple the experience.

    The trouble with a person that never PUGs is that they basically don't exist (that does not mean I am saying they are uncommon). The only people that would ever even know if they left are the people on their friends list and in their guild (which is only going to be a tiny portion of their server) because they are basically a MMO "hermit" that never leaves their own property. This kind of player does little to help the game last because they do little to make the game experience pleasant for the most important group of people, the ones that are trying to decide if the game is worth playing long term. I am not saying these people don't have the right to exist, merely that anything that encourages this type of behavior (and leads more people down this path) is not going to be good for the long term health of the game.

    TL;DR - The more people that only play with their friends (or by themselves) the faster the game will die.
    My point was thinking that only juggs and shiradi and monchers or whatever the fotm will be down the road would get into the groups would be shortsighted because while some people would do that and not everyone would. The only way you'd only ever run into that attitude is if you only ran with a closed group that all behaved that way.

  6. #206
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    On the one hand you seem to be saying that it is a good idea to occasionally PUG because it is good for the game (which I agree with), but then you say it is no big deal if you can't get into PUGs because everyone should just have a friends list to group with anyway.

    In my opinion, anything that discourages PUGs is bad for the long term health of the game. People do eventually leave games never to return so the only way to keep a game alive is to add new players. New players will never make it onto your friends list unless you PUG or they happen by purely random luck to become a member of your exact guild. PUGs are the introduction to any game and when they are terrible (or rare) it is unhelpful if the goal is to attract and retain new players. If tripling the experience for EE causes PUGs to be less welcoming of newer players (as the post you were replying to said) then it is a bad idea to triple the experience.

    The trouble with a person that never PUGs is that they basically don't exist (that does not mean I am saying they are uncommon). The only people that would ever even know if they left are the people on their friends list and in their guild (which is only going to be a tiny portion of their server) because they are basically a MMO "hermit" that never leaves their own property. This kind of player does little to help the game last because they do little to make the game experience pleasant for the most important group of people, the ones that are trying to decide if the game is worth playing long term. I am not saying these people don't have the right to exist, merely that anything that encourages this type of behavior (and leads more people down this path) is not going to be good for the long term health of the game.

    TL;DR - The more people that only play with their friends (or by themselves) the faster the game will die.
    Strange. I feel that easy, or worse forced, pugging is more likely to kill a game. The problem with that is it gives players no incentive to play nice or give a rats ass about the others in the group. Make pugging rare and problematic and players are going to do what it takes to get and stay in a guild or maintain friends.

    Oh, and I played a game in which pugging was very rare for 6 years (open PvP with grave looting made sure of that). All that was needed to replace it were good guild recruitment tools and an incentive to recruit.

  7. #207
    Hero nibel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    (Harsh DM post)
    I played PnP with a DM that thought like you once. I left from the table mid-session because he was clearly more interested in showing us how he could bend the rules to create "awesome NPCs" that we couldn't beat without the help of other "awesome NPCs" that we should beg for their help.

    In any PnP game, if the DM want to play to win, he will win. Any weakness the NPC might have that your party could "wisely figure out" was either left there for you to find out, or the DM found the idea interesting, and let you go ahead with it. The NPC could always have a contigency spell, a hidden ally, a secret power, or something literally pulled from nothing just to save him.

    DMs should be focused on bringing challenge to the table. But it is on his best interest to let the group win. Or, at worst, let them have a half-victory ("you recovered the McGuffin, but the king died"). If all they face are impossible odds, the group will probably fall apart. Or switch up to a miniatures tactics group, that is also interesting on its own, but is not RPG.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  8. #208
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,785

    Default

    Apparently Karavek didn't get enough negative feedback in the last thread where he presumed to tell everyone that he and only he knows the "correct" way of playing P&P, so he's back for more.

    P&P or online, there are no "correct ways", only ways that people find fun. He apparently finds conflict, cruelty and avarice fun. Most P&P players I know do not.

    IME, the most fun DDO quests are the ones where the party barely completes... and the second most fun are the ones where the party almost completes. Wiping is much less fun, of course, but usually still more fun than blasting through the quest easily.

    The same is true of P&P. A good DM stretches his players, makes them use their skills and resources (character and player) and is firm but fair. His goal should be for the party to either barely succeed or barely fail. The further from those two extremes, the worse he's doing -- with the exception, of course, of truly boneheaded moves, which the DM can't control and shouldn't reward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Strange. I feel that easy, or worse forced, pugging is more likely to kill a game. The problem with that is it gives players no incentive to play nice or give a rats ass about the others in the group. Make pugging rare and problematic and players are going to do what it takes to get and stay in a guild or maintain friends.
    I don't want to see PUGging disappear nor be forced on people, but I think a solid argument could be made in the opposite direction. What you say may be true in a larger game, but DDO's community is small and cohesive enough that people who don't "play nice" quickly develop a reputation and find getting into groups quite difficult. Everyone actually has a pretty strong incentive to behave themselves, more than they would if just playing in a guild with a few friends.

    And we all do start out with no guilds. There needs to be a way for people to learn the game without having to decide on a guild first. And like it or not, people will judge the health of the game by the health of the LFM panel.. and it doesn't look too healthy most of the time these days.

  9. #209
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post

    P&P or online, there are no "correct ways", only ways that people find fun. He apparently finds conflict, cruelty and avarice fun. Most P&P players I know do not.
    I think I can come up with a pnp correct way to play,

    Sit down at table with a group of friends / family, share in beer/pizza/whatever depending on age etc, have a good time.

    Hey there is a correct way to play =P

  10. #210
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    The Land of Oz
    Posts
    1,534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sit down at table with a group of friends / family, share in beer/pizza/whatever depending on age etc, have a good time.
    That's not just pnp, DDO or anything else.

    That's just how to live life imo. Very little beats sitting down with the boys after work, having some laughs, drinking some beer and eating leftovers.

  11. #211
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Posts
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    That is such a Y2K+ RPGA attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact anyone who thinks like that wouldnt last a second in an oldschool character grinder adventure like the tomb of forgotton horrors or temple of elemental evil.

    No my friends, DMs do not exist to help you win, they are their to challenge you as a character builder, role player, and especially as a tactician
    Lol, you young punks and your fancy pants "character builds", that is such a 80's RPG attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact that you wouldn't last more than a few months in a real oldschool character based adventure like the Village of Hommlet.

    In the 70's if you wanted something like a 'character build' you chose a class and a race, character build done! D&D was never about challenging a 'character build' but challenging the imagination and everyone having fun in the process. Of course this was in the days before every kid and his dog had an Atari2600, where we still had imaginations and adventures didn't turn into cheap imitations of whatever recent pulp horror film had wiped the humanity from your DM.

  12. #212
    Forum Turtle
    2014 DDO Players Council
    TrinityTurtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Findlay, OH
    Posts
    3,229

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    That is such a Y2K+ RPGA attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact anyone who thinks like that wouldnt last a second in an oldschool character grinder adventure like the tomb of forgotton horrors or temple of elemental evil. Let alone something as notorious for end of campaign quests like the Apocolypse stone, an adventure that literally cant be beaten by the players, and its probably one of the finest pre made modules ever published.
    .
    To be fair, the Tomb of Horrors was written to BE unbeatable, it was MEANT to not allow anyone to win. (I got the REturn to the Tomb of Horrors and it had a history of the adventure). It was written to be a 'scoring' adventure for a convention that nobody could 'win' the adventure at the table, but the players who got the most points for things they did in the adventure during their allotted time at the table won some sort of prizes. So no one (theoretically) got out of that one alive! LOL Except one group that basically bonked the magic item against that which you were trying to find (I'm being vague in case people haven't played but might like to try their luck) and so surprised the DM he let them win on the basis of pure creative playing. LOL

    And oh man, Return to the Tomb of Horrors really took I to the next level, I can't think how many poor characters I've buried in there. Once the dm was in a mood and I got killed by the ghost of the one from my last try. Is that sorta assisted suicide? LOL
    Turtel, Turtley Wrath, Tortoisse, Waterssong, Victerr Creed, Utahraptor, Velocaraptor, Minddancer, Loggerhead, Matamata, Sulcata, Ticerratops, Sierrann, Hankx, Shartelhane

    Member of Highlords of Malkier! Help channel, everyone welcome in this channel!

  13. #213
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    21,801

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    no a DM is not suppose to ever just plan on losing any fight. certainly there are degrees of challenge, but for a DM each encounter can be designed to steadily weaken and wear down the party, at least if that is what the main villain of the campaign, or the current foe for the session is capable of. That is such a Y2K+ RPGA attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact anyone who thinks like that wouldnt last a second in an oldschool character grinder adventure like the tomb of forgotton horrors or temple of elemental evil. Let alone something as notorious for end of campaign quests like the Apocolypse stone, an adventure that literally cant be beaten by the players, and its probably one of the finest pre made modules ever published.

    This idea that players are suppose to win is indeed connected to MMO really, and in MMO yes I do expect to always win with a half way decently made character. Anything better then average I expect to dominate with, anything below average I expect to be challenged by using, its that simple.

    But at the table top, thinking a DM is not going to kill your character randomly with a trap, a sucker punch spell, or having an assassin slit your characters throat in the middle of the night, then you have not played real D&D you played some kind of munchkin fest for kiddies.

    In big boy D&D the DM is a brutal advesary who exists to not just narrate a story, and progress the adventure, but to embrace the minds of countless characters who exist solely to see the party dead or far worse. I myself once as a young DM even had to have a girl player take me aside and tell me to stop coddeling her character, an elf priestess who had been captured by orcs. She insisted they at least threaten her with rape and torture, and not keep her unharmed because she was too precious a prize to simply abuse. In other words it was the girl who wanted to not be treated special, or see the game be kept at a pg 13 rating just for her. Since then Ive grown up, and now days if you run at my table top and are 15+ gawds help you if your captured by anything evil and brutal like orcs. It will more then likely resemble something from the serbian film, then LOTR.

    No my friends, DMs do not exist to help you win, they are their to challenge you as a character builder, role player, and especially as a tactician. If you slip up too badly or too often, you wont just feel a spanking, you will feel a noose. If your too confident, you will die in your bed against a foe who cant fail to sneak up and slit your throat, if your too afraid, you will be driven mad by bunnies leaping in the bushes, and if just the right mixture of everything, you may play your DM long enough to blind side him with a character build he didnt see coming, a plan he couldnt imagine, and become a legend at your table top for the decades to come.

    A game of table top is for the DM the ultimate form of PVP and for the players as well it is the endless sense of facing a foe greater in power then any mere god, they are facing the equivalent of that artist brush that would **** with daffy duck on old loony tune shorts. It is only the rules, and the oath each GM takes while having palm on the cover of their manual that keeps it fair for both sides at all, fair in the sense there are thingsa GM should not ever do, but players should not take for granted that what they think they know is not what is in fact at hand either.

    Seriously these ****ing kids who played with daddy for a DM and mommy on the cleric to nanny them are getting to vocal and numerous as they enter the teens.
    Schadenfreude DMs are far more scoffed at and mocked than DMs who make the experience fun and fair. This picture you continue to paint where daddy is the DM and mommy is the cleric doesnt exist, other than in the mind of some who attempt to mock anyone elses assumed playstyle (assumed because you dont agree with them, so they must be doing it wrong) which is different than their own. D&D is a game far more versitile and diverse than what you have been posting over the past few days, and any attempt to rules lawyer that there is only one right way to play and everyone else isnt playing "big boy D&D" (seriously? ROFL) is sheer Oberoni to the point where anyone flying this flag would be asked to refrain from sitting tables at cons by the producers themselves, due to this kind of attitude being directly contradictory to attracting users to play the game in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #214
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    208

    Default

    I agree with the below post, but not quite in such terms...

    To be honest, I do not believe anyone should be posting in a thread to destroy epic hard difficulty that has more than 1 past life. I have zero past lives, and have been grouping with many people of similar status. We can get through epic hard, but people die, and its not some sort of super-easy iwin button difficulty. It is more challenging and fun than epic normal, but completely doable, which, for us, epic elite is absolutely not.

    We do not rock 600 hps and 3500 sp for our sorcerers, or 750 hp and 2500sp for our clerics. We largely have much more modest hps in the 350-450 range, with our fighters in the 6-700 range, and spell points all over the place. We do not rock 60fort assasinate dcs, nor 70+ dc pretty much anything. Our dcs are largely somewhere between 30-45.

    Epic hard serves a very nice function for our no-past-life -> 2 past life group, running on little if any raid gear and a random smattering of greensteel items, though we do have a significant chunk of house c crafted equipment.

    Please do not suggest arbitrarily killing of difficulty or aspect of the game simply because it does not fit with your play style. DDO is full of a wide and varied range of people.

    Daine, I know you are old and everything, but I bet you 5 bucks you would find it a rough go in our non-monty pnp sessions. Although, nothing like my stupid dm killing me 10 minutes into the very beginning of an entire campaign because i failed a jump check into a pit of spikes 10 feet down that did 14 points of damage to my level 1 4 hp sorcerer. _10_ minutes into the beginning of the campaign. We all promptly decided to give it a wash as a total failure....


    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    Lol, you young punks and your fancy pants "character builds", that is such a 80's RPG attitude I cant even begin to express what is wrong with it beyond the fact that you wouldn't last more than a few months in a real oldschool character based adventure like the Village of Hommlet.

    In the 70's if you wanted something like a 'character build' you chose a class and a race, character build done! D&D was never about challenging a 'character build' but challenging the imagination and everyone having fun in the process. Of course this was in the days before every kid and his dog had an Atari2600, where we still had imaginations and adventures didn't turn into cheap imitations of whatever recent pulp horror film had wiped the humanity from your DM.

  15. #215
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    We do not rock 600 hps and 3500 sp for our sorcerers, or 750 hp and 2500sp for our clerics. We largely have much more modest hps in the 350-450 range, with our fighters in the 6-700 range, and spell points all over the place. We do not rock 60fort assasinate dcs, nor 70+ dc pretty much anything. Our dcs are largely somewhere between 30-45.
    How do you get your dc's that low? I think my original first life wizard had 400+ hp, and 38 dc's with random gen gear back when the cap was 20 and I knew almost nothing about gearing a toon.

    Seriously I'd post your builds up if what you said is true because I think they have some massive problems if you are at even 25 and having that low of dc's and hp.

  16. #216
    Community Member TBot1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    429

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    Village of Hommlet.
    Thank you for bringing back some fond memories. I wish now I hadn't given all my old D&D books and Dragon magazines ...
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  17. #217
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    How do you get your dc's that low? I think my original first life wizard had 400+ hp, and 38 dc's with random gen gear back when the cap was 20 and I knew almost nothing about gearing a toon.

    Seriously I'd post your builds up if what you said is true because I think they have some massive problems if you are at even 25 and having that low of dc's and hp.
    38 is between 30 and 45. Quivering palm, for instance, is 10+monk level/2 + wis modifier. Without shatter bonuses, it is not that crazy to see very low fort checks... especially compared to touch of death, which imo, kinda sucks compared to what it did before. And if you gear for shatter, you lose stun dc. Pick, either quivering palm, or stunning. Can't have both equally effective. :|

  18. #218
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    38 is between 30 and 45. Quivering palm, for instance, is 10+monk level/2 + wis modifier. Without shatter bonuses, it is not that crazy to see very low fort checks... especially compared to touch of death, which imo, kinda sucks compared to what it did before. And if you gear for shatter, you lose stun dc. Pick, either quivering palm, or stunning. Can't have both equally effective. :|
    OMG . . . are you actually stating it's tough playing a monk?

    and yes, you can gear for both. Stunning 10 ring, shatter handwraps, combat mastery somewhere else.

  19. #219
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    I agree with the below post, but not quite in such terms...

    To be honest, I do not believe anyone should be posting in a thread to destroy epic hard difficulty that has more than 1 past life. I have zero past lives, and have been grouping with many people of similar status. We can get through epic hard, but people die, and its not some sort of super-easy iwin button difficulty. It is more challenging and fun than epic normal, but completely doable, which, for us, epic elite is absolutely not.

    We do not rock 600 hps and 3500 sp for our sorcerers, or 750 hp and 2500sp for our clerics. We largely have much more modest hps in the 350-450 range, with our fighters in the 6-700 range, and spell points all over the place. We do not rock 60fort assasinate dcs, nor 70+ dc pretty much anything. Our dcs are largely somewhere between 30-45.

    Epic hard serves a very nice function for our no-past-life -> 2 past life group, running on little if any raid gear and a random smattering of greensteel items, though we do have a significant chunk of house c crafted equipment.

    Please do not suggest arbitrarily killing of difficulty or aspect of the game simply because it does not fit with your play style. DDO is full of a wide and varied range of people.

    Daine, I know you are old and everything, but I bet you 5 bucks you would find it a rough go in our non-monty pnp sessions. Although, nothing like my stupid dm killing me 10 minutes into the very beginning of an entire campaign because i failed a jump check into a pit of spikes 10 feet down that did 14 points of damage to my level 1 4 hp sorcerer. _10_ minutes into the beginning of the campaign. We all promptly decided to give it a wash as a total failure....
    I am sorry but you have not proven why epic normal would not serve the function that epic hard does. Not seeing a point to having an additional difficulty. As I pointed out epic elite needs a reward bump compared to other difficulties and having three difficulties detracts from having two. What have you demonstrated? You say that epic hard is more challenging and fun then epic normal, but shrug lets hear some evidence of this.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 10-01-2013 at 03:00 PM.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  20. #220
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am sorry but you have not proven why epic normal would not serve the function that epic hard does.
    Since you put forth the suggestion, the onus is on you to prove why removing EH is necessary, not on others to defend the status quo.

    EH is the most popular epic difficulty. Everyone, or nearly everyone, who has chimed in on this thread has opposed the idea. And for good reason: it has a whole bunch of downsides and absolutely no benefits whatsoever.

    It is quite literally the most ridiculous suggestion I've seen seriously made around here in a long time. The fact that you are still defending it given the responses so far suggests to me that you either have no idea how most people play, or simply don't care.

Page 11 of 20 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload