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  1. #161
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    What you're not taking into account is that first of all not all enjoy extreme challenge, as others have said, but beyond that, the level of challenge depends on one's skill level, gear, experience and choices.

    Note that last word: choices. You may find EH boring because of how you've decided to play, while I may not because of how I do.

    That's why different difficulties exist, and I say a pox on anyone who wants to remove difficulty levels just because they personally don't enjoy them. It's transparently self-centered, and would accomplish less than nothing if done.

    "EH is boring to good toons" -- that would be "good" based on your definitions. Meanwhile you might consider my "toon" to be "not good" but I probably actually enjoy playing the game a lot more than you do, so who's doing it wrong?
    thank you. you said it perfectly. These "good" toons always think only about themselves and no one else. they don't care if other toons struggle or if players don't have fun. if it's not their way they're bored or feel unchallenged. See that is what separates me from them. i still enjoy this game. All levels of it. i have yet to make it to 26. i have only done a few epic raids and some of the higher stuff. Maybe a few EE as well. i'm still having fun and have plenty to do still. why on earth do people need to rush to the end where nothing is waiting for them. After that they begin to complain and moan like a child nothing is there and boo hoo i want it my way.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'll disagree, assuming a six person group it means 5 people having fun and 1 person that alternates between boredom and aggravation.
    I assume you are talking about the healer which is hands down the most fun role in any game (at least for me). The main reason healers are not as fun in DDO as they are in other games is because the game allows everyone to self-heal essentially killing the role.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  3. #163
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    thank you. you said it perfectly. These "good" toons always think only about themselves and no one else. they don't care if other toons struggle or if players don't have fun. if it's not their way they're bored or feel unchallenged. See that is what separates me from them. i still enjoy this game. All levels of it. i have yet to make it to 26. i have only done a few epic raids and some of the higher stuff. Maybe a few EE as well. i'm still having fun and have plenty to do still. why on earth do people need to rush to the end where nothing is waiting for them. After that they begin to complain and moan like a child nothing is there and boo hoo i want it my way.
    Why should we care? Why do you feel entitled to my caring? Why is your struggling or even having fun any concern of anyone else's but yours?

    Oh wait, are we still talking about the OP's insane idea of removing EH? Something so ridiculous it has 0% chance of ever happening so worrying about it is absurd?

  4. #164
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I assume you are talking about the healer which is hands down the most fun role in any game (at least for me). The main reason healers are not as fun in DDO as they are in other games is because the game allows everyone to self-heal essentially killing the role.
    Based on my experiences in a few different mmo's you are in a very small minority.

  5. #165
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Seriously DDO would be so much better with just the epic normal and epic elite difficulties. Close epic hard. Try a weekend without epic hard and I think DDO would be better. Try closing epic hard for a week because it adds nothing. It gives some silly bonus which should not be and it is barely any more difficult then epic normal. Epic elite is actually somewhat difficult and gives a larger bonus then normal first time. Why does epic hard give a bonus - really why at all. Let's get this right. Make DDO just epic normal and epic elite and end this epic hard difficulty which does nothing for DDO.
    /not signed

    I solo a lot and although I can't always solo elite, I do like the increased challenge of hard.
    I like the loot increase too.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Right. And if you were able to turn to the DM and say "I'll give you 5 bucks if you let me cast all of my spells twice in this encounter", how much fun would it really be in the end? Because that's where we are now.
    I got into the second wave of alpha testing and ended up quitting in disgust before the game was even released in no small part because spell points are simply not D&D no matter what some obscure optional rulebook says. Since that time it has only gotten worse. I miss the good old days of D&D when spell casters had a ranged weapon to attack with because they knew there were not going to have enough spells to last an entire encounter and would need a weapon as backup. Spells are supposed to be significantly more powerful than weapon attacks but quite limited in their use. Instead spells are virtually unlimited and weapon attacks are way too powerful as well (and monsters have way too much hp to compensate).

    The game has not improved since I left alpha, but my standards have definitely lowered. After trying Neverwinter, DDO seems amazing by comparison which is less of a compliment for DDO than a sad testament about how hard it is to find a decent D&D MMO.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  7. #167
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    See, I still remember running things like Redwillows and getting my backside handed to me. At level. On normal. New player with a mish-mosh of random gear? Sounds about right. It's ok with me that solving one of those makes H easy and solving both enables Elite. I wish most heroic Elites were a bit more difficult at times, but I think that same kind of conceptual check would work in epics.
    Oh man, I was just looking through my DDO screenshots the other week. I had a bunch from Delera's, showing off spell effects and such (my mage ducking her head away as a fireball explodes on a wall being one of my favorites), wraiths, etc. And a few of them were from my "awesome solo run through redwillows" on my paladin/cleric. I think she was 8th or 9th at the time, back when a +4 sword was about as good as you'd have, +3 plate armor, +3 shield, etc. 4 enhancements total. I remember being so incredibly proud of being able to solo it.

    Fond memories of DDO's early days.

  8. #168
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Define "extreme challenge."

    And while you're at it . . . what's your cut-off point for "good."
    I'll give you a definition of what extreme challenge is. You've defined it yourself. Requires gimmicky toons, metagaming, and completely different tactics than everything else in the game.

    Sirgog said it himself, that epic hard is not a good training ground for epic elite, because nothiing you learn to do there works in epic elite. That of course certainly goes for the entire rest of the game as well.

    Let me give you an example of extreme challenge in a video game. I used to have a college football game that i really enjoyed. I tried it once on the 'insane' difficulty setting. At that setting, no matter how much better my players should have been than the other team's, watching every one of their linemen pancake all 5 of my offensive linemen within a nanosecond of the snap was completely ludicrous. Was it hard? Oh hell yeah. The problem is it wasn't football. It in no way resembled it. It was the old playground game of kill the man with the ball. So it totally sucked to play, and i abandoned it.

    This is somewhat how i see epic elite in DDO. Everything you learned was wrong. It's so different, that it doesn't even really resemble the entire rest of the game.

    That's why many people don't want to play epic elite. Because they like DDO.

  9. #169
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You want something fast and dirty . . . triple the XP on EE.
    And if you did, it would lead to even more:

    ...it's not particularly difficult once you move to certain types of builds, meta-game the heck out of things, and lose any aversion to cheesey tactics.
    So triple the exp, and you'll just encourage more twinked out, meta-gamed, specific builds who use cheeseball tactics to cakewalk through everything.

    No thanks.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Based on my experiences in a few different mmo's you are in a very small minority.
    It is often one of the more challenging roles. Though the main reason it's generally unpopular is that most players are more concerned with how well "I" do than how well "we" do.

  11. #171
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'll give you a definition of what extreme challenge is. You've defined it yourself. Requires gimmicky toons, metagaming, and completely different tactics than everything else in the game.
    .
    There are many different ways to play epic elite. You could cc, dps, kite and dps, range, etc. A party of barbarians with a healer character would be fine in epic elite. They all have stun blow, do decent dps, etc. People do have to be smarter in how they equip and build characters for e.g. Physical Resistance is really really smart in epic elite for example. If you get your character to 40+ physical resistance that helps immensly.

    The reality is epic hard does not require any tactics or thought whereas epic elite does.
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  12. #172
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    And if you did, it would lead to even more:



    So triple the exp, and you'll just encourage more twinked out, meta-gamed, specific builds who use cheeseball tactics to cakewalk through everything.

    No thanks.
    Oh please you can take almost any build thru ee's as long as it has:

    A means to do strong dps

    Viable defenses, this means blurry, incorp and max dodge for your armor as well as some prr

    Fortification at 150% (opinions will vary on exact amount but 100% doesn't cut it at all imo)

    A way to self heal at least 200 hp in a shot whether that is an innate spell of your class, a umd'd scroll, or a silver flame potion.

    Well rounded saves in approx at 50 up to egh, not sure what number I'd put down for ee stormhorns.

    Where in that is a specific build? Yes there are some builds that are very popular that do all of that but you can pull that off with almost any build. No you probably can't do that with your cha based shruiken throwing halfling barbarian, but there is a way to set up any base class to be able to run in ee.

  13. #173
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It is often one of the more challenging roles. Though the main reason it's generally unpopular is that most players are more concerned with how well "I" do than how well "we" do.
    My experience wasn't that it was more challenging except for solo leveling in trinity mmo's. (you have no dps in those) My experience with why I hate it is that you get the blame in any pug regardless of if people were standing in pools of acid and fire while pulling 20 more mobs than they could handle, then fly off the handle at you. It's why even though I've always had a capped healer in any game I've played for my guild runs, I almost never ever pugged them.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's a competitive thing I think, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, I hate losing, failing, not getting the best I can. In school that was a 4.0, in games it's winning/not failing. When I was writing scripts for drilling/milling machines it was figuring out a way to optimise the machines movements for a few more percent in productivity. I hate coming in not the best in anything I do and when I do "fail" it just pushes me to try harder at whatever that activity it might be that I was doing.
    I guess it's about how you look at it. If I'm soloing, I'm playing much differently and more precisely. If I'm in a group, I tend to be more concerned about everybody having fun and being involved than what I can best do to get a completion. I guess it's more about achieving the goals I set than those the devs did.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My experience wasn't that it was more challenging except for solo leveling in trinity mmo's. (you have no dps in those) My experience with why I hate it is that you get the blame in any pug regardless of if people were standing in pools of acid and fire while pulling 20 more mobs than they could handle, then fly off the handle at you. It's why even though I've always had a capped healer in any game I've played for my guild runs, I almost never ever pugged them.
    It's why I generally just avoid PuGs. I see it as below soloing and logging out to watch Gilligan's Island reruns on my desirability list. Just something to do to find a guild or fill a friends list.

  16. #176
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It's why I generally just avoid PuGs. I see it as below soloing and logging out to watch Gilligan's Island reruns on my desirability list. Just something to do to find a guild or fill a friends list.
    I don't pug heavily anymore, but occassional pugging lets you continue to meet new players and it's one of the things that I think will eventually really hurt ddo, the pug scene has multiple problems. Yes I could never pug again if I wanted to but when you get to that point where there is no one pugging you're probably in maint mode.

  17. #177
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Oh please you can take almost any build thru ee's as long as it has:

    A means to do strong dps

    Viable defenses, this means blurry, incorp and max dodge for your armor as well as some prr

    Fortification at 150% (opinions will vary on exact amount but 100% doesn't cut it at all imo)

    A way to self heal at least 200 hp in a shot whether that is an innate spell of your class, a umd'd scroll, or a silver flame potion.

    Well rounded saves in approx at 50 up to egh, not sure what number I'd put down for ee stormhorns.

    Where in that is a specific build? Yes there are some builds that are very popular that do all of that but you can pull that off with almost any build. No you probably can't do that with your cha based shruiken throwing halfling barbarian, but there is a way to set up any base class to be able to run in ee.
    Except we're not talking about just being "viable" in EE at that point. If you triple the exp, people are going to want to get it done as fast as possible, for the highest benfits/most exp per minute. That means people WILL gravitate towards the builds that can do it all, because that's "easier" than the other setups. Why take along someone who's merely "viable" as opposed to someone who can help steamroll the place?

    Classes/builds that are just "viable" in EE now would be passed over for ones that are "superior" in EE. If you don't believe that, then I think you're being somewhat naive.

  18. #178
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Except we're not talking about just being "viable" in EE at that point. If you triple the exp, people are going to want to get it done as fast as possible, for the highest benfits/most exp per minute. That means people WILL gravitate towards the builds that can do it all, because that's "easier" than the other setups. Why take along someone who's merely "viable" as opposed to someone who can help steamroll the place?

    Classes/builds that are just "viable" in EE now would be passed over for ones that are "superior" in EE. If you don't believe that, then I think you're being somewhat naive.
    While I think you need to invest in meeting people to get a better friends list.

  19. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    While I think you need to invest in meeting people to get a better friends list.
    yes, because having a better friends list fixes everything!
    °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸,ø¤°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸A R C H A N G E L S °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸,ø¤°º¤ø,¸ ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
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    Sev~

  20. #180
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    yes, because having a better friends list fixes everything!
    It would fix this, yes there will be people that gravitate to fotm builds to crush content. However for myself and the people I play with on a regular basis it's the person behind the keyboard. There are players I will take no matter how gimp looking the build because they're going to do what needs to be done to complete the content.

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