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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The SP-pot timer has come up before and generally gets brought up every time an EE raid is beaten the first day by people chugging hundreds and in some cases thousands of SP pots. It'll never happen, too many whiners and too much money is made in the store for this to happen.

    As a result of this Turbine has to "challenge" us in the dumbest way possible. This has always been "epic's" problem. If I had a good solution that actually could happen I'd propose it, I don't so I'll just stick to trolling.
    Yep. And as I've said before, this is the core reason why so many game imbalances exist. In D&D, casters are deliberately limited in the number of spells they can cast because those spells tend to be much more powerful than anything non-casters can do. In DDO there are many powerful non-caster abilities, but offensive spells tend to be more powerful still, and the blue bar is supposed to put a lid on how often they can be used.

    Healing in P&P is also gated by the number of spells that divines can cast, which forces a party to deal with issues such as strategy, damage mitigation and combat tactics.

    Much of this would also be the case in DDO if casters really were limited by their blue bars. The availability of SP potions throws the game entirely out of whack and makes it impossible to achieve any sort of game balance. There's no possible way to make a raid that is challenging and fun for a group that uses none of such potions, and isn't a complete pushover for a group that uses 50 of them. Even with different difficulty levels.

    Even a timer on these pots would help, as you suggested. But it won't happen. Much as people complain about "pay to win" over stuff like tomes, those little blue vials are actually the worst offenders, and Turbine simply makes too much money on them to hinder their use.

    SP pots are DDO's equivalent of "the spice must flow".
    Last edited by Qaliya; 09-30-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #102
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yep. And as I've said before, this is the core reason why so many game imbalances exist. In D&D, casters are deliberately limited in the number of spells they can cast because those spells tend to be much more powerful than anything non-casters can do. In DDO there are many powerful non-caster abilities too, but spells tend to be more powerful still. Healing in P&P is also gated by the number of spells that divines can cast, which forces a party to deal with issues such as strategy, damage mitigation and combat tactics.

    Much of this would also be the case in DDO if casters really were limited by their blue bars. The availability of SP potions throws the game entirely out of whack and makes it impossible to achieve any sort of game balance. There's no possible way to make a raid that is challenging and fun for a group that uses none of such potions, and isn't a complete pushover for a group that uses 50 of them. Even with different difficulty levels.

    Even a timer, as you suggested, would help.
    In PnP you had a human DM running the show.

    but you know whats funny . . . since we're kinda/sorta talking about EEs here. I don't find casters to be over-powered at all in EEs . . . and they are absolute god-mode in EH and below.

  3. #103
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    Let me word it a different way then:

    The overwhelming majority of LFM's are NOT for EE. With people aware that the difficulty exists, it is a very clear indicator that people don't want to play EE. No matter how much you want them to. No matter how much you have evolved as a player. No matter how much you try to force people to play with you.

    You want to grow an Epic Elite community, run plenty of EE groups, never be a jerk, never be an elitist, accept regular failure, guide people rather than force them, stop others from abusing your party members when they have failed. Accept that not everyone wants to play as a self-sufficent toon, this was never in the spirit of D&D. Accept that some people will want a healer. Accept that some people will get upset if you tell them how they must build their character. Understand that many are not at your level and some never will be, often because they just don't want to be; respect their way of thinking even if it is different from yours, they help help to financially support the game too. Write a few guides, perhaps start an EE guild, be inclusive, be a leader second and a fellow player first.

    Cast from your mind any thought that heralds you as either Epic or Elite while running Epic Elite content, you are merely competent at a single computer game, that is neither epic nor elite. Most important of all if you want to grow an Epic Elite community, make sure everyone in your party has fun, its why they play.

    Trying to force people to play EE by removing EH is a bad idea and will not achieve your desired outcome. To grow the EE community requires work from you not the devs.
    While I actually don't want eh removed, most your post is horrible. You say to make sure that everyone is having fun, however earlier in your post you say;
    accept regular failure
    Failure is never fun, it sucks, so right there is at least one person not having fun.
    Accept that not everyone wants to play as a self-sufficent toon
    This means you have to have someone play a healer which the majority of players find not to be fun, and it means waiting for a healer rather than playing the game, also not fun. This doesn't even get into the whole you need to have a way to heal yourself incase the healer is busy part.
    Understand that many are not at your level and some never will be, often because they just don't want to be; respect their way of thinking even if it is different from yours
    I'm good but not the best, and I still have room to improve as pretty much everyone does. If you aren't at my level that's fine but if you don't want to get better I have zero respect for you and do not ever want to play with you.

  4. #104
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Most folks that come here and keep up with things are invested enough to push and make ourselves pretty good at least. So we have a skewed sense of reality in terms of how hard something is or is not. I keep forgetting this until I run with other people who are casual or very new. There is a HUGE difference between what I can do in a quest and what they can do. I am in no way, shape or form disrespecting those people nor taking away from any contributions they make to a quest...but the bottom line is that they are not on the same level. So I can go into a quest on EH, even solo, and blow through it. At the same time, I can go into that same quest with a group of folks who are new or just play once every week or two and there is a HUGE difference in both how I have to approach the quest and how quickly its run.

    I think that a lot of us who are here forget that. And I think there are a lot more folks who fit the casual/new player boot than we like to admit. I'll go further to say that those people get very frustrated with the difficulty that they have with quests...even those I find fairly trivial.

    All that said to say; there is a big difference between our skill levels in DDO and its difficult to apply the "make it harder" mantra when so many new or casuals struggle already.
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  5. #105
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    How about getting rid of EE, since everybody complaining about epics tend to complain about something relating to it. That way the constant complainers would just go away.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  6. #106
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    How about getting rid of EE, since everybody complaining about epics tend to complain about something relating to it. That way the constant complainers would just go away.
    Nah, we'd still be here complaining about how boring the game was instead of how nobody wants to play the hard stuff.

    And people really don't find EH boring? I do find that hard to believe unless you're been playing for less than a month.

  7. #107
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nah, we'd still be here complaining about how boring the game was instead of how nobody wants to play the hard stuff.

    And people really don't find EH boring? I do find that hard to believe unless you're been playing for less than a month.
    I need neither to crush the opposition, or be "challenged" to enjoy a game. And if i read the forums right, people are abotu to leave the game if anything else happens, and that might be the trigger for me to get their stuff.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  8. #108
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The bolded part . . . come on that's never gonna happen. Nobody heals any more and those few who try are so bad at it . . .
    This is true. Toons playing classic roles, except maybe arcanes, really arent welcome in the general pugging community anymore. Can u say t**d in the swimming pool? Pugging isnt about questing together. Its about completing together and seeing who won the kill count

    But classic roled toons make really fun guild grps

  9. #109
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I need neither to crush the opposition, or be "challenged" to enjoy a game. And if i read the forums right, people are abotu to leave the game if anything else happens, and that might be the trigger for me to get their stuff.
    There's no point in getting anyone's stuff when the loot people will just make it out-dated junk next update anyway.

  10. #110
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    But classic roled toons make really fun guild grps
    I'll disagree, assuming a six person group it means 5 people having fun and 1 person that alternates between boredom and aggravation.

  11. #111
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    Let me word it a different way then:

    The overwhelming majority of LFM's are NOT for EE. With people aware that the difficulty exists, it is a very clear indicator that people don't want to play EE. No matter how much you want them to. No matter how much you have evolved as a player. No matter how much you try to force people to play with you.

    You want to grow an Epic Elite community, run plenty of EE groups, never be a jerk, never be an elitist, accept regular failure, guide people rather than force them, stop others from abusing your party members when they have failed. Accept that not everyone wants to play as a self-sufficent toon, this was never in the spirit of D&D. Accept that some people will want a healer. Accept that some people will get upset if you tell them how they must build their character. Understand that many are not at your level and some never will be, often because they just don't want to be; respect their way of thinking even if it is different from yours, they help help to financially support the game too. Write a few guides, perhaps start an EE guild, be inclusive, be a leader second and a fellow player first.

    Cast from your mind any thought that heralds you as either Epic or Elite while running Epic Elite content, you are merely competent at a single computer game, that is neither epic nor elite. Most important of all if you want to grow an Epic Elite community, make sure everyone in your party has fun, its why they play.

    Trying to force people to play EE by removing EH is a bad idea and will not achieve your desired outcome. To grow the EE community requires work from you not the devs.
    This is exactly what I do. I just grab whoever looks to join off the lfm. I have led more raids than quite possibly anyone that has ever played DDO. I teach where people are receptive to teaching. Not to toot my horn or my guild's horn, but we are one of the best healing guilds in the history of Khyber - I have 3-4 healers which I love to play and I have no problems with healing a group through thick and thin.

    On that EE thrill of the hunt for example there was a wizard, monk, S&B tank, and a rogue and I played a cleric. I helped the wizard pale master better understand some of the effective spells and techniques. I explained to him that ottos irresistable is a nice spell to have on those assassins. I did some symbol of death which helped his disco balls work and my implosion work better. I then did a few energy drains followed by destructions. I saw the wizard by the end of the quest do a few energy drains and fingers of death on targets. The s&b I helped explain that prr would help on the assasins and that he probably should be more s&b then twf in there because that would help us as a group. The rogue I tried to help him with telling him to listen for when the chain starts whipping to get out of range and to keep assasinating ( he seemed to land). The monk who had some offensive and defensive capabilities I helped with what dc works for the stunning fist and touch of death and some different tactics. I thanked them for joining the lfm before dropping group after completion of the quest.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  12. #112
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    If everyone signs on to stop being elitists and let 'unprepared' toons into their EE runs (or join EE PuG's that 'unknown' people post) then I'd be on board with this.

    That said, EH is exactly what it needs to be right now. Accessible. With a bonus to xp (though much smaller than EE) and decent loot. Until people stop it with the 'you don't have enough hp's' or 'your build is gimp' or 'I ran with that guy one time and didn't like him' then DDO is going to need a reasonably rewarding alternative to EE's. I personally won't run any EE's on my rogue I'm leveling right now because I feel like it's not ready for that. I solo EE's on my other two toons I play but my rogue really is NOT ready. That said...if the alternatives were running EN's for no bonus or running EE's on that toon I'd join EE's ready or not. I'd play carefully but I don't have the gear or ED's yet on this toon yet to make it able to survive EE's - I'd probably end up dead even playing carefully.

    I think people need to remember that there was a time when we all had iffy gear, builds, etc. Removing EH is just an attempt to punish people that aren't completely geared yet or lack in-game experience. Go down that road and you'll have a nice sandbox for the couple hundred of people per server that are left.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  13. #113
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Go down that road and you'll have a nice sandbox for the couple hundred of people per server that are left.
    That's not where we are now?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is exactly what I do. I just grab whoever looks to join off the lfm. I have led more raids than quite possibly anyone that has ever played DDO. I teach where people are receptive to teaching. Not to toot my horn or my guild's horn, but we are one of the best healing guilds in the history of Khyber - I have 3-4 healers which I love to play and I have no problems with healing a group through thick and thin.
    And just to clarify my post - it wasn't aimed at you. The problem is that you're really in the minority with the people I've played EE's with. Heck, for awhile some of them wouldn't even allow non-ranged/casters into EE Tor's because 'melee builds are a choice you made and you chose wrong'. That type of attitude is far more prevalent than people playing healers in EE and guiding people through the quests. If your attitude was the norm then they could just remove EN AND EH both. Assuming of course they fixed the stupidity of off-destiny leveling.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  15. #115
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'll disagree, assuming a six person group it means 5 people having fun and 1 person that alternates between boredom and aggravation.
    Boredom and aggravation for you and i, but most guilds have at least one girl who actually enjoys it

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That's not where we are now?
    Not quite...give it a couple more months though.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  17. #117
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    My wizard has a nice selection of heavy picks, because that's how he used to kill things in epics. Well, that and a woo-woo stick.

    I can't really remember if the grass was greener, but it must have been - it always is. Was. Whatever. Get off my porch.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #118
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Not quite...give it a couple more months though.
    I just looked at ddoracle looks like logins are at about 15000, (close enough to call it an average), For me if I'm playing that day I log in at least 5 times per account do to the memory leak per account. Disregarding the people like me that might log with more than one account per day if 5 logins are even close to average each server probably only has 3-4000 active players it looks like.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    In PnP you had a human DM running the show.
    Right. And if you were able to turn to the DM and say "I'll give you 5 bucks if you let me cast all of my spells twice in this encounter", how much fun would it really be in the end? Because that's where we are now.

    If Turbine wants to make the game more challenging, it's easy: double the TP cost of mana potions, halve the drop-rate in game, and put a 5 minute timer on them. Put the same timer on raises/resurrects. Ta da, all of the "too easy" types would now have their hands full in a lot of places. And it would require, what, one day's worth of work from one coder, followed by maybe a week of testing?

    This won't happen, because Turbine likes the $ they get from mana pots, and because most players like complaining about a lack of challenge a lot more than they like challenge itself.

  20. #120
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    This is true. Toons playing classic roles, except maybe arcanes, really arent welcome in the general pugging community anymore. Can u say t**d in the swimming pool? Pugging isnt about questing together. Its about completing together and seeing who won the kill count

    But classic roled toons make really fun guild grps
    That's not it, it really isn't.

    1. EDs give lots of power. Meaning the damage gap between melees who could heal themselves better (say rangers) and those who could not (fighters and barbs) got a heck of a lot smaller.

    Whereas before in old epic bringing the fighter or barb made more sense as they were significantly better at killing things, now that difference wasn't as big. Our "rangers" started getting more play time and our "fighters" less.

    2. The "DC Casting Dark Age" that lasted from U16 until U19 (about 6 months) ruined the game for many people. What do you call an Evoker FvS with a 56 DC in EE GH? A hjealbot!

    The saves post MoTU went full-retard for a while, meaning if you were a DC casting wizard you were screwed and the insta-killing divines went from god-mode to gimp-mode over night. I always thought it was okay if FvS was an over-powered ubber-class because it was accepted that they take on the healing burden. If they were 95% the killer of a wizard but had 1k more SP to heal the gimps in the party it was a fair trade-offs.

    Remove their ability to insta-kill and they just became a big bag of un-fun so they were either TR'd or shelved. Things are better now but it might be too little too late.

    3. Insane mob damage. You just can't power heal people through EEs, it's not possible. The non-BYOH players just simply aren't as good and lack the smarts to know when to duck. I'm sorry but it's true, learning to lick your own wounds makes you a better player.

    4. Better self-healing options exist. Cocoon is awesome, anyone can take it. 5-8 more skill points also means fitting in no-fail UMD heal-scrolls is possible on any build.

    5. Nobody likes waiting for a healer. Since there are much better healing options and nobody will heal you anyway, why wait? Seriously, the game's been like this for almost a year now, why haven't you adapated?

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