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  1. #21
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    People are aware of EN, EH and EE, the overwhelming amount of LFM's on Khyber for Epic are EN and EH, ergo the majority of people there don't want to play EE.

    Further, even if a significant population from a deleted EH move to EE (rather than EN or just quit) it wont make them better or more invested players. What you will end up with is more EE PuGs that will fail more often.

    History is littered with examples of individuals who have tried to force large groups to conform to their personal ideas of 'a good time', it never ends well.
    There are almost no epic normal lfms on khyber either.
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  2. #22
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Raids are far different then quests. I am talking about 6 person quests - that is where the problem lies. If the handful of epic raids retain 3 difficulties so be it.
    Yeah I was just using it as an example where the difficulties got done right. If they can take that progression - EN easy for PUGs, EH hard but doable for PUGs and zergable only in good groups, and EE not designed for PUGs at all, then EH will serve a real purpose in game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Epic Hard fills the niche for those that are partly/mostly geared. It allows for the participation at a level that does not require a load of resources or a fully functioning well oiled machine of a group to complete. While some will argue that it is not any or much more difficult than Epic Normal, I would have agreed with you pre U19.2. It seems that Epic Hard got some kind of a boost or change in scaling as my normally static group of 4 EH players are now finding we need to stop at shrines we use to just blow past and nothing in our builds have changed. Additionally Epic Hard is a good place to hone ones skills if the objective is to become Epic Elite players.


    EH has never served the skill honing role at all. Running more EH doesn't teach you how to run EE, it teaches you skills that if used in EE are suicide. The only thing it might do is get you gear upgrades, but that won't help unless you have the skills downpat.

    EH teaches you to zerg, round up large packs and use AoE kill effects, a strategy that is not viable in EE unless you outgear the content. It also teaches you that your CC effects will almost always land regardless of gear, which isn't true in EE.

    If you are undergeared/underlevelled in EEs, the skills you need are breaking up mob packs via clever use of stealth, ranged attacks, and sometimes traps, careful cooldown and mana management, and crafting a strategy that plays to the strengths of your group's epic destinies.

    Anyone looking to break in to EEs would be much better served taking their level 25-26 character into a PUG for the Eveningstar chain on EE or the Sentinels chain on EE.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  3. #23
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    There are almost no epic normal lfms on khyber either.
    I can attest to this.

    I posted one (for Fall of Truth) recently when I was very low on time, didn't have time for a failed run and was just looking for the commendation. I was also too hungover to lead an EH group. It didn't fill, although we got an easy completion with the seven that came. Had a couple of people ask 'do you mean EH?' because EN groups are so rare that people assumed it was a typo.

    Likewise I've seen similar things when posting an EN group to get a first time XP bonus. Everyone just assumes it's a typo.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  4. #24
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    lets just remove all 3 Epic difficulty options and bring back "EPIC"

    this would go hand in hand with no more streak bonuses or first time +80% for Epic Elite.

  5. #25
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I do sometimes wonder if you "the whole game is super easy" types will ever step outside of your gated communities and realize that there is a whole big ddo world out there. Filled with people who are not min maxers, who don't have exceptional video gaming skills, that are not able to play epic elite. The mass of helots who wander ddo outside of your castle walls.

    I assure you that there are far more people who are playing in the epic levels that cannot do epic elite, than there are that can. Or they can do it, but not well, and only if they are in a group with other stronger players. Even from within your little elite clans, you can see the evidence on these forums. What is that evidence? The gimmick toons.

    How many times have you seen people say that meleeing is too dangerous in epic elite? So people build all of their toons to have manyshot. They always have evasion and pally splashes. Every caster using shiradi. Not everyone wants to do that. In fact, most people don't want to do that. At least not on every character.

    Here's something else that may shock you. Not everyone has maxed out all of their destinies. Believe it or not, there is a sizable number of people who haven't even finished one.

    Is there a difference between epic normal and hard? Yes. It's probably similar to the difference between heroic normal and hard. Try running epic hard on a fresh first llife 20 that is still wearing level 16 gear and has a level 0 destiny, and then tell me there is no difference. Assuming of course, it isn't a gimmick build.

  6. #26
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    There are almost no epic normal lfms on khyber either.
    Let me word it a different way then:

    The overwhelming majority of LFM's are NOT for EE. With people aware that the difficulty exists, it is a very clear indicator that people don't want to play EE. No matter how much you want them to. No matter how much you have evolved as a player. No matter how much you try to force people to play with you.

    You want to grow an Epic Elite community, run plenty of EE groups, never be a jerk, never be an elitist, accept regular failure, guide people rather than force them, stop others from abusing your party members when they have failed. Accept that not everyone wants to play as a self-sufficent toon, this was never in the spirit of D&D. Accept that some people will want a healer. Accept that some people will get upset if you tell them how they must build their character. Understand that many are not at your level and some never will be, often because they just don't want to be; respect their way of thinking even if it is different from yours, they help help to financially support the game too. Write a few guides, perhaps start an EE guild, be inclusive, be a leader second and a fellow player first.

    Cast from your mind any thought that heralds you as either Epic or Elite while running Epic Elite content, you are merely competent at a single computer game, that is neither epic nor elite. Most important of all if you want to grow an Epic Elite community, make sure everyone in your party has fun, its why they play.

    Trying to force people to play EE by removing EH is a bad idea and will not achieve your desired outcome. To grow the EE community requires work from you not the devs.

  7. #27
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    So to summarize this thread: by far the most popular epic difficulty at least on my server should be scratched because some guy on the forums said so -- who can't even explain why it should be removed.

    Makes perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    You want to grow an Epic Elite community, run plenty of EE groups, never be a jerk, never be an elitist, accept regular failure, guide people rather than force them, stop others from abusing your party members when they have failed. Accept that not everyone wants to play as a self-sufficent toon, this was never in the spirit of D&D. Accept that some people will want a healer. Accept that some people will get upset if you tell them how they must build their character. Understand that many are not at your level and some never will be, often because they just don't want to be; respect their way of thinking even if it is different from yours, they help help to financially support the game too. Write a few guides, perhaps start an EE guild, be inclusive, be a leader second and a fellow player first.
    This is far too reasonable for the DDO forums, you know.

  8. #28
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    So to summarize this thread: by far the most popular epic difficulty at least on my server should be scratched because some guy on the forums said so -- who can't even explain why it should be removed.

    Makes perfect sense.



    This is far too reasonable for the DDO forums, you know.
    Yes because DDO is dying to summarize. The people who have cancelled their subscriptions or stopping buying things have voted.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I give this troll a 2 out of 10.

    OP, I expect better.

  10. #30
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yes because DDO is dying to summarize. The people who have cancelled their subscriptions or stopping buying things have voted.
    Are you saying that people have quit the game specifically because epic hard exists?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yes because DDO is dying to summarize. The people who have cancelled their subscriptions or stopping buying things have voted.
    Oh, of course. I'm sure that arbitrarily removing the single most popular epic level difficulty will lead to a veritable stampede of people back to the game.

    Nearly every day the forums are filled with people complaining about EH difficulty and saying it's why they're quitting.

    Oh wait -- I've actully never seen that said even once.

  12. #32
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Here's something else that may shock you. Not everyone has maxed out all of their destinies. Believe it or not, there is a sizable number of people who haven't even finished one.

    Is there a difference between epic normal and hard? Yes. It's probably similar to the difference between heroic normal and hard. Try running epic hard on a fresh first llife 20 that is still wearing level 16 gear and has a level 0 destiny, and then tell me there is no difference. Assuming of course, it isn't a gimmick build.
    Noone gets to 28 or even to 25 without capping a destiny (unless they deliberately develop several destinies at once).

    Excluding the harder EH stuff, a fresh level 20 wearing sensibly chosen random loot will feel like a god among insects running most EH quests, as long as they are grouped with other people with comparable gear.

    Compare EH VON2 to heroic normal Sins of Attrition (something the fresh 20 might have run a level earlier) - there is no question that HN Sins is the much harder of the two quests. Mobs use more dangerous abilities (teleport behind and sneak attack), and mob density is much higher.


    Hell most EH level 20-22 stuff is easier than Heroic Normal Mindsunder, which is not a quest most regard as particularly difficult.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  13. #33
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Hell most EH level 20-22 stuff is easier than Heroic Normal Mindsunder, which is not a quest most regard as particularly difficult.
    I'm sorry but this statement is somewhat ludicrous. Granted, there are quite a few high level heroic quests that are harder on elite than most lower epic quest on hard. But not on normal.

  14. #34
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    let me tell you a secret matt....

    we already have a 2 difficulty system in DDO....

    EH and EE are what get played more often than not.

    but you know that already dont you?

    Is this is really about how you dont want lower players thinking they are "almost" good enough for EE because they can do EH?

    Its about how you dont want lower players getting 90% of the Xp you get from EE?

    what else could it be? What exactly is the "Problem" as you see it with the difficulties set up the way they are?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We don't envision starting players with Starter Gear and zero knowledge playing on Hard or Elite.
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  15. #35
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I give this troll a 2 out of 10.

    OP, I expect better.
    This is no troll. Epic Hard adds nothing to DDO and in fact hurts DDO. DDO would be better without Epic Hard.
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  16. #36
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    /not signed.

    The Shroud needs normal/hard/elite.

    The best thing to happen to this game was The Shroud. I don't think it would be alive without it.

    That is if they introduce Epic shroud.
    Last edited by zDragonz; 09-29-2013 at 09:27 PM. Reason: sorry Drunk post.

  17. #37
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    I don't think you've gone far enough Maddmatt, they should get rid of Epic Normal, Hard and Elite and just have "Epic Maddmatt", a difficulty perfectly tailored for you to always be "actually somewhat difficult". This new difficulty should work on a sliding scale to match whatever character you are currently playing. If you are in a party the difficulty should always be adjusted so that you are the greatest contributor and if a party tries to play without you in it they should fail at the end boss with the message "Should have played with Maddmatt". Turbine should also rebrand the game "DDO: Epic Maddmatt".

    Either all of the above, or perhaps Turbine can recognise that not everyone is as Elite as Maddmatt and have a range of difficulties for us lesser mortals so we can enjoy the game in peace and grow our player skills, gear, destinies and characters at the pace that suits us best, unbeholden to the demands of the elite.
    Epic Maddmatt is indeed the best option!
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  18. #38
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    let me tell you a secret matt....

    we already have a 2 difficulty system in DDO....

    EH and EE are what get played more often than not.

    but you know that already dont you?

    Is this is really about how you dont want lower players thinking they are "almost" good enough for EE because they can do EH?

    Its about how you dont want lower players getting 90% of the Xp you get from EE?

    what else could it be? What exactly is the "Problem" as you see it with the difficulties set up the way they are?
    If it were my choice 100% would be playing EE, but realistically that is not a viable game economically. Epic normal is great for the casual players or people who just want to get something straightforward and yet experience DDO - I am for that.

    The problem I have is that not enough people play epic elite. Epic hard is really just the same as epic normal and very boring so the options are quit which several people have done or work really hard and try to play epic elite. By hard I mean I do lfms, I play healer or whatever class, I take whomever or whatever, I teach people like I did in epic elite thrill of the hunt today, etc.. I just do whatever I can. When I think about things I ask myself why does epic hard even exist and I can not come up with a very good answer. Epic Elite makes sense and Epic normal does as well, but epic hard? Epic Hard is just run because it gives a little bit more xp then epic normal so lets make it epic normal nerf its xp and create only two options. You either run epic normal or epic elite in a quest fair enough.
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  19. #39
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'm sorry but this statement is somewhat ludicrous. Granted, there are quite a few high level heroic quests that are harder on elite than most lower epic quest on hard. But not on normal.
    What's harder - fighting 3 EH mobs at once, or fighting 10 Heroic Normal mobs at once? Usually, the 10 HN mobs, unless you min-max by pushing up your DR (something newer players don't know to do).

    Old epics mostly had low mob density, high level heroic stuff has much higher density, and so most lower level EHs end up easier than heroic normals.

    Of course there's exceptions (VON1 with the double spawn bug, etc) but the general rule is true - the game is much, much harder at 18 than it is at 20.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  20. #40
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    If it were my choice 100% would be playing EE, but realistically that is not a viable game economically. Epic normal is great for the casual players or people who just want to get something straightforward and yet experience DDO - I am for that.

    The problem I have is that not enough people play epic elite. Epic hard is really just the same as epic normal and very boring so the options are quit which several people have done or work really hard and try to play epic elite. By hard I mean I do lfms, I play healer or whatever class, I take whomever or whatever, I teach people like I did in epic elite thrill of the hunt today, etc.. I just do whatever I can. When I think about things I ask myself why does epic hard even exist and I can not come up with a very good answer. Epic Elite makes sense and Epic normal does as well, but epic hard? Epic Hard is just run because it gives a little bit more xp then epic normal so lets make it epic normal nerf its xp and create only two options. You either run epic normal or epic elite in a quest fair enough.
    A better solution to the present mess would be to recalibrate EH so that it's actually halfway between EN and EE.

    Go for EN having a 100% PUG success rate, EH having an 80% PUG success rate and EE no chance in a true PUG unless you outlevel/outgear the content in which case it's probably a channel run.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

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