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  1. #1
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    Default Non Evasive Tank - Viable?

    Looking over the builds in this forum 99% of them involve 2+ levels in an evasion granting class.

    My question is this... "Is it possible to build a strong (read Survivable) Tank (Paladin or Fighter) without splashing into monk or rogue for evasion?"

    My theory is that evasion = 0 damage from traps and spells but if you can reduce the damage some other way (resistances, absorption) and simply avoid traps.

    My tester for this would be Enter the Kobold end fight. Currently the only way to easily survive this encounter is to have someone with evasion take on the boss while the non-evasive party members range from the hallway. I would like to know if there's a chance for a tank to engage this boss without evasion and still win the day.


    Discuss?
    1) "Quijenoth" Main Arcane Caster, 2life PM, 3life BrdTR, 4life FvS.
    2) "Vallaes" Melee Tank build, 2nd life Barbarian.
    3) "Elvraema" Experiments, 1-Mnk6/FvS14 Solo build. 2-"Dronker"

  2. #2
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Etk? Plenty of ways to do it.
    1) Evasion party - though that's cheating.
    2) Nuke them harder.
    3) Everyone camps from hallway.
    4) You get the proper stuff (high reflex, fire absorption, resistances, fire shield) and go to town on the boss. Nothing special, though it requires more health and heals.
    5) Get some dps and laugh at dead fire stuffs.

    Anyway, yes. It IS possible. Having said that, evasion increases survivability by a massive amount.
    And tanks are meh now.

  3. #3
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    it's hard to be survivable when, in best of cases, u'll get half damage

    a well planned tank can be in the opposite type: only rolling 1 get full damage, rest of times gets 0

    as u can see it's hard to argue against evasion XDDD

    also there're some ways to mitigate damage(that heroic feat that ignores elemental damage when blocking, some ability form undying sentinel too) but in both cases that toon could have evade so it would have more survivavility

    and in etk, the tactic is exactly the opposite XDDD evade kites, rest fight on top, on top u don't get damage unless u cast aoe stuff that grabs aggro from the kiter, from corridor...well, mobs like casting spells through the corridor XD

    we always do it w/o cc, just umd some persistent aoe (not 30 secs pls) and go to the corridor or run in circles passing under the bridge, rest of players delete the kobold, when efreet appears pull it to top and same deal

    living spells+eles are a big pita, that's why evade+ice shield is useful when have no kiter/cc (i've ended alone under the bridge beating the efreet because rest of party died XD when that happens the best option is retreat, raise and come back, the last survivor will have the aggro of every mob so can focus on boss w/o troubles)

    also keep in mind that not every boss has spells with reflex saves, but when that's the case u can be sure that will hurt w/o evade XD)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  4. #4
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    Tanks are not very useful anymore I guess.
    You can have a decent PRR even wearing a robe!

    Something along the lines of a 12 monk 6 pally 2 cleric

    PRR

    15 Ultimate earth stance
    15 Shintao Iron Skin
    25 Paladin Defensive Stance
    10 Warpriest Wall of steel
    15 Standing with Stone
    15 Fully stacked Ephemeral Evolution while Tanking
    30 From Unyielding Sentinel while Unbreakable
    10 Epic Feat
    24 Guardian Ring
    15 Antipode-Planar Focus Set
    ---------------------
    174

    That plus: Improved Evasion, 25% dodge and 25% Shadow Veil Incorporeal should be enough to tank anything in the game
    Last edited by Aviya; 09-29-2013 at 07:23 AM.
    Yeela - Favored Soul Healer and Nuker
    Xylah - Pally Arcane Archer
    Redsonjah - Barbarian DPS

  5. #5
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quijenoth View Post
    My theory is that evasion = 0 damage from traps and spells but if you can reduce the damage some other way (resistances, absorption) and simply avoid traps.
    In theory, with a mix of Superior elemental resistance, absorption gear, and Shield Deflection feat, the classic S&B tank can simply soak up the hits; but that's an awful lot of effort when a good Evasive toon just, well, evades all that stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    15 Ultimate earth stance
    15 Shintao Iron Skin
    15 Standing with Stone
    The S&B tank should have a little more: 30 from Shield Mastery/ISM/Legendary Shield Mastery w/tower shield + 32 from hvy armor (assuming BAB 26) = 62. If paladin, they can also pick up Harbored by Light for +25 PRR; little unclear if this req's S&B. [HbL currently provides +50 PRR, but that's probably a bug.]

    The problem is PRR is one of those things where the more you have, the less each extra pt is worth. In this case, compared to what you posted, +42 PRR is only worth ~3.5% extra dmg mitigation, IIUC. And a S&B tank isn't going to have everything else you list, either: i.e., Imp Evasion, 25% Dodge, 25% Incorp (10% is still the most you can get from gear, I think).

  6. #6
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    In theory, with a mix of Superior elemental resistance, absorption gear, and Shield Deflection feat, the classic S&B tank can simply soak up the hits; but that's an awful lot of effort when a good Evasive toon just, well, evades all that stuff.
    Shield deflection sounds like a mini version of evasion for S&B characters who want to wear heavy armor. It's not going to be nearly as good as the real thing, but that's a good thing for balance purposes. I've been thinking about testing it out to see how useful it is, really, as I haven't seen any real feedback on it so far. I'm going into it quite skeptically

    To the OP, the end fight in Enter the Kobold is not really a fair determination of whether a tank has to have evasion. Basically, without someone kiting/grabbing aggro of the trash mobs then every character, whether they are DPS, a caster, etc, really wants/needs evasion for that fight. I think a non evasion tank is definitely doable, but there are just going to be some fights that will give you trouble.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  7. #7
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Shield deflection sounds like a mini version of evasion for S&B characters who want to wear heavy armor. It's not going to be nearly as good as the real thing, but that's a good thing for balance purposes. I've been thinking about testing it out to see how useful it is, really, as I haven't seen any real feedback on it so far. I'm going into it quite skeptically
    The trend for the last year or two has been that S&B tanks have better dmg reduction & threat amp; but monk "tanks" are better at avoiding dmg, thru Imp Evasion, Incorp+Dodge, high saves, etc. That's still basically true, but the pendulum seems to have swung in favor of pajama builds again. Between the improvements to Earth Stance, the addition of One w/Blade, and the ability to get higher-tier stances on MCed monk builds, you can get most of the defensive perks of monks and fighters, while still having much higher DPS than S&B seems to have.

    Also with U19, I feel like Turbine has simultaneously given us new S&B toys to play with while trying to pigeon-hole S&B tanks. Making the Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses S&B-only is part of it, of course, but it's other things too. E.g., with Shield Deflection feat and Counterattack action boost, Turbine is encouraging shield-blocking (again); but that's counter-intuitive to most DDO forum vets, who feel if you're not attacking 100% of the time on a tank, you must just be piking.

  8. #8
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    I think it's possible, and am working towards something like this as well, just to mix things up.

    First step, however, is to always make your Reflex save. By far the most bang for your buck is halving the damage right off the top. So, Paladin helps, and whatever else to get that Reflex save up.

    After that, Absorption, Resistances, Fire/Cold Shield...all that good stuff. I'm eventually hoping I can have a slot where I can rotate in a set of elemental items depending on the situation.

    So just to make up something entirely random:

    Cloak with Fire Absorb / Vitality
    Cloak with Acid Absorb / Vitality
    Cloak with Cold Absorb / Vitality
    etc
    etc

    Something interchangeable like that...just some random gen slot item like that where I can keep all the other enchants the same, but swap in a different element type. Of course that'll fall apart in some places where there is lots of varying elemental damage, but I think usually in any given place there is one type that is clearly above the others.

    We'll see...it's just a side project...

    The trend for the last year or two has been that S&B tanks have better dmg reduction & threat amp; but monk "tanks" are better at avoiding dmg, thru Imp Evasion, Incorp+Dodge, high saves, etc. That's still basically true, but the pendulum seems to have swung in favor of pajama builds again. Between the improvements to Earth Stance, the addition of One w/Blade, and the ability to get higher-tier stances on MCed monk builds, you can get most of the defensive perks of monks and fighters, while still having much higher DPS than S&B seems to have.
    They can taunt with Concentration skill now too.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The trend for the last year or two has been that S&B tanks have better dmg reduction & threat amp; but monk "tanks" are better at avoiding dmg, thru Imp Evasion, Incorp+Dodge, high saves, etc. That's still basically true, but the pendulum seems to have swung in favor of pajama builds again. Between the improvements to Earth Stance, the addition of One w/Blade, and the ability to get higher-tier stances on MCed monk builds, you can get most of the defensive perks of monks and fighters, while still having much higher DPS than S&B seems to have.

    Also with U19, I feel like Turbine has simultaneously given us new S&B toys to play with while trying to pigeon-hole S&B tanks. Making the Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses S&B-only is part of it, of course, but it's other things too. E.g., with Shield Deflection feat and Counterattack action boost, Turbine is encouraging shield-blocking (again); but that's counter-intuitive to most DDO forum vets, who feel if you're not attacking 100% of the time on a tank, you must just be piking.
    Well, to be honest I am attacking almost 100% of the time in combat, even in tough fights. If things get rough, I'm pretty good at running away LOL. Anyways, it seems like it would be fun to have a reason to drop down into a shield block every so often...You hear the roar of a flamestrike or cometfall, and you quickly block. You see the dragon about to breath on you, and you duck down behind your shield Thematically, it seems like it would be fun. In practice, the question is, how useful is it? How much will you really use it? Is the game responsive enough / give you enough time to make the shield block in time? Would you get by fine without it? Also, per the comments earlier in the thread, can you simply get enough AC and PRR that you're not giving up too much by fighting in light armor with a 2 monk or 2 rogue splash for evasion? I've thought about it (done it before), am seriously considering it, but I really like the idea of playing a knight in heavy armor, just because, I think it's cool
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  10. #10
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    IMO evasion wins in current endgame but if we would see for example epic Shroud and epic ToD a non evasive tank would be viable again.
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    In a lot of games, a well-timed block parries your enemy's attack, making them vulnerable for a moment. If DDO incorporated something like that, I could see shield-blocking being more useful. As it is, though, turtling is just for those moments when you need a breather, possibly to give the healer enough time to do their job.

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