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  1. #1
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    Default perception vs reality, raiding, elitists, healers, byoh, flower sniffers, and you.

    I see a lot of threads and I mean year after year after year of them; that seem to be more about expectations, single experiences that are rare; blown up into "happens every time". Stuff that makes no sense and that is realy not what happens in the game. I see this from all sides. Truth is I've been guilty of this at times myself. Coloring the whole game with a broad brush over isolated incidents. Well I've come full circle, and realized: this game just doesn't resemble the forum skewed perspective. So here are a list of things I think are perception and not reality where that perception seems to be detrimental to the game. Even to the point of making players avoid aspects of DDO over something that isn't REALLY true or is so uncommon as to be effectively untrue. I'll list mine, feel free to list your own. Starting with the biggest misconception of them all:

    Perception: Raiding is a bastion of elitists who are hungry to kick me and/or blame me for failure. So I don't run raids.

    Reality: 99% of the hundreds of raids I've done had no sort of elitism of any description. And weren't even run by particularly good players.

    P: no one ever teaches you the raid, or if they ask if anyone is new to the raid they're out to boot you.

    Reality: of the hundreds of raids I've done a fair number of them someone asks if anyone is new, and no one was ever booted. Always someone takes a moment to explain, sometimes well, sometimes poorly, sometimes humorously. If its your first shroud please do as instructed and try to hit the middle, of the portal. Remember: trust in the shroud^^^^^^^^

    P: if a raid goes bad they will blame the new guy so I don't do raids.

    R: 99% of the failed raids I've been in had no blame handed out, usually they were just a few bad rolls in a row. occasionally a bad mix of classes or the lack of a needed class/skill. Most commonly the raids that failed had poor or non existent leadership.

    P: I'm not prepared/ready for raiding, people will see my lower geared small kill count and boot me.

    R: short answer is: no way LOL, most raids 5 people could be piking and no one would have a clue. No you're being timid for no reason! Long answer is I've seen 1 person booted from a raid that wasn't a clear case of deserving it (griefing/not listening at all which I've seen a couple times at most) that 1 person was me, and it was a case of "i knew I should have politely dropped when the leader was talking about the previous healer he booted who couldn't keep him alive". Clueless D-b*gs exist everywhere in life, they are no more or less prevalent in raids. Although often they do clump together in guilds, so avoid that persons raids and that guilds raids you'll be happier. But don't avoid raiding, that's silly).

    P: I don't want to be a healer because they get all the blame when things go bad.

    R: not hardly, it does happen very infrequently, ( see "D-b*g": world: full of, comment) in fact I've had instances of screwing up where the party members went out of their way to pretend it wasn't my fault. I've had as many or more of those experiences or forgiving party members (no big deal we got this), as I've heard "put down the bow and heal us" comments (exactly 1 time: the Bow is a casting implement with 27% spell power and I'm wearing FoT gauntlets of immortality Mr. D-b*g ).

    P: if your not zerging you are one of those flower sniffers.

    R: sometimes you zerg sometimes you slow down and make D&D nerdgasmic comments about the griffons. Some quests are just a played out source of XP. Some are worthy of doing the optionals. I suspect 95% of the player base plays this way. First time through, crawl figure things out. 100th time through, zerg.

    P: some healers just don't heal, what's wrong with these people.

    R: well the dozen or so of these healers I've run across seemed to be melees with a self heal multiclass, a couple were TR, on a life they weren't enjoying, most of them say something, even put it their LFM. The odd ACTUAL healer who didn't heal.. really not worthy of the threads we see. I suspect many of these posts are just venting by players who had an unfortunate incident, or met a healer who was having a bad day. Or heck who knows maybe D-b, world, full...

    P: Everyone in DDO knows each other, so if you screw up in a quest you'll get black listed and no one will let you in their group, or join yours.

    R: yeah lol no. Games way too big for that and no one knows who anyone's alts are even if it wasn't. Here's what actually happens, a small circle of high level guilds have affiliations and dramas with each other and they think they're important that way, so they extend this perception of their few hundred player "circle" out to everyone on the server. Most of whom have no clue who or what those couple guilds are about. Sure you sometimes run into the same people, but just as often you run with someone a couple times or once, and never see them again.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-28-2013 at 04:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Perception: I'm a stupid forum troll.

    Reality: I'm a stupid forum troll.

    (I'm talking about myself, it's called humor)

    What was this about? Oh yeah, hjeal meh!

  3. #3
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Perception: Raiding is a bastion of elitists who are hungry to kick me and/or blame me for failure. So I don't run raids.

    Reality: 99% of the hundreds of raids I've done had no sort of elitism of any description. And weren't even run by particularly good players.
    I would like to make a note here: This is really contingent upon the raid and the difficulty. Yes, top end raids on elite are not the place for new players to cut their teeth on a raid.

    At one time and still around a bit are the social raids, like Shroud, which were great places for players to learn the raid, when it was run on normal and even hard. Yes, a Shroud Elite is not where a new player belonged.

    Also, lines like: "Link BB's", "Know it" "be in a prime ED" etc, and many other requests in the LFM are not there to show the world the party leader knows how to type, they have a reason, a motive, both to let the person wanting to join that they should be prepared, and to let everyone else know that this might not really the time and place for a first timers lets all learn how to raid type of run. While people may understand a first time run from a player on a hard raid, they also often times will size you up to make sure that as a player you can handle yourself well enough to be a contributing member even on your first run.

  4. #4
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    One thing i've found out to be true over time is that there are a bunch of good players and their attitude will be dertermined by their close circles. What seems to be described as elitists are the ones that hangs together with their cool buddies from that how so great guild. Sometimes actually, they're not even that good, they just talk as they were because their social circle is what they became. Like if just being in that one guild made them better. But it's not how it works in reallity.

    I've always played end game / hardest stuff in every MMOs i've tried but never has it been with the guild that everyone would look at, this just never interrested me... i'm nowhere near an elitist in my attitude toward other but it's 100% true that my number 1 priority when playing is efficiency (that's fun for me). There is a line between what people think about elitist. It's just a combination of someone who is better than you to simply solid AND that has a poor attitude. Jerks = jerks. And when a jerk has the upper hand over you (even if it's a game), he might feels the need to bully and make himself feel better.

    Other than that, I still think it just makes sense that people of the same skill level wants to play together and that this has NOTHING to do with elitism. I think the forum simply represents what would happen if everyone were forced to play with each other. I think... we don't want that.


    Edit: There are also great individuals in those guilds... i'm not generalizing.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 09-28-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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    In most raids the only time they start tossing around blame is if an idiot run ahead pulls stupid agro back and wipes everyone.
    You can easily avoid this by following the leader.

    There is that small minority of raids led by multiple a-holes trying to impress one another but usually those guys arent going to invite you anyway with out a recommendation.



    But I would say that a couple of years ago healers who didnt heal were really common. Maybe that fad is over.
    Last edited by Dartwick; 09-28-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member waryJerry's Avatar
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    Isn't this thread ultimately about correcting the "misconception" that raiding just ain't fun? Furthermore, isn't this "misconception" only a misconception among people who like raiding but aren't for some mysterious reason finding enough players to raid with? Ultimately, if people aren't joining the raid game just because it's not their idea of fun isn't that perfectly valid? Furthermore, if some developers are beginning to get the sense that a lot of players find raiding about as fun as eating cement then maybe the majority of their game projects shouldn't be targeted at pro-raid players? Just wondering here....

  7. #7
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Perceptions: Theres a bunch of reasons people aren't raiding.

    Reality: People aren't raiding because most of the loot has been out-dated making said raids a waste of time.

    It's that simple, a statue in my honor will suffice the glory that is this revelation.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Perceptions: Theres a bunch of reasons people aren't raiding.

    Reality: People aren't raiding because most of the loot has been out-dated making said raids a waste of time.
    I thought that part was obvious and this was about attitude towards other. Maybe I failed reading... again.

    But i've also heard that some people are scared of raiding thinking it's a whole new world while it's not.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 09-28-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    It's funny, I was just thinking about starting a thread about perception vs reality and how it affects folks playing DDO. Your message brings up a lot of good points. My point is specifically about zerging.

    To illustrate my inspiration, let me tell you a funny story. A couple nights ago, I joined a PUG for the lost thread chain in King's Forest. As most PUGs go, I had no real idea what to expect. But before we entered Midler's Farmhouse, the leader stated that we will be saving the prisoners for the extra xp.

    Immediately, one of the party says "I don't have that kind of time" in party chat, and leaves the party. He then starts another lfm with all the favorite buzz words in the comments, "know it, byoh, zerg" etc.

    We proceeded to run the quest, save the prisoners and move on to the next and successive quests with no drama. The group was actually pretty cool. One of the rare groups in PUGs (not really all that rare, again it's about perception) where you have some fun.

    I checked the lfm after we got done to see what other groups there might be, and I see the lfm for our "zerg!" former member. He's currently finishing up the next to the last quest. That's right, we finished about 20 minutes or so ahead of his group and we theoretically got more xp because we broke all the barrels, freed all the prisoners, and generally just didn't hurry although we did move with alacrity... there's a difference between taking your time and wasting your time.

    So what exactly did he not have the time for? More xp and a speedier completion?

    I've been in groups in the past that were zerg happy and they would kick people fairly often if they didn't live up to expectations. My favorite was the guy in Gianthold that wanted to grab the chest in Aurum after we were done. He didn't bother to zerg, the two warforged sorcs in the party could easily handle everything themselves, so this guy went through and broke all the barrels and disarmed the traps etc while the wf sorcs screamed through the dungeon obliterating everything. They kicked him after they got out to "farm" and he was still in. He said he was in the last room and just grabbing the chest. They then stood around the entrance laughing about what a dillweed this guy was (even though he got us some reasonable sized xp bonuses) and generally comparing their epeens. Meanwhile, this guy exited and went on his merry way while tweedledee and tweedledum were still yakking away about nothing. Then to top it off, the posted the next lfm with "we don't care about your stupid loot" in the comment line. That made it pretty clear to me that these guys weren't about being efficient, but wanted to feel superior to those who maybe didn't take the "farming" aspect of the game quite so seriously. (I hate the "farming" mentality as it sounds so much like work. Or playing farmville)

    Now I've also run with zergers who made very efficient use of their time and still managed to be reasonably nice to folks. And many of them would even wait a minute for someone on occasion.

    So here's where the perception and the reality come in. Just because you're impatient and in a hurry, it does not make you a zerger. It does not make you some sort of "pro" gamer, and it certainly doesn't make you a better person than someone who is slower than you. The reality is that in many cases, you aren't being more efficient you are simply hurrying because it makes you feel like you're getting more done. Being fast and efficient is not the same as being in a hurry.

    Break the habits, do some things different now and then. Don't just accept "that's the way everyone does it".

  10. #10
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    Isn't this thread ultimately about correcting the "misconception" that raiding just ain't fun? Furthermore, isn't this "misconception" only a misconception among people who like raiding but aren't for some mysterious reason finding enough players to raid with? Ultimately, if people aren't joining the raid game just because it's not their idea of fun isn't that perfectly valid? Furthermore, if some developers are beginning to get the sense that a lot of players find raiding about as fun as eating cement then maybe the majority of their game projects shouldn't be targeted at pro-raid players? Just wondering here....
    It's funny, I was wondering the exact same things even before I read your post...

    The reasons why raiding isn't fun for a significant group of people that play MMOs:

    1) It can take more time to get a group than it takes to run the raid.
    2) Having 12 people run a quest designed for 8 is EVEN WORSE than zerging through quests designed for 4 in a group of 6.
    3) Politics with loot rolling and hard feelings when failure occurs.

    I could keep going, but I also wanted to address the healer part: some of us have been running without a dedicated healer from the moment we started playing 7 years ago. The "healer" thing is not a problem for us. It's only a problem for the half of the population on the "we're going to assume that everything that works in WoW works in DDO" side. So while we CAN argue about it until we're all blue in the face, the truth is that half of us don't care, and the other half don't get it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Now I've also run with zergers who made very efficient use of their time and still managed to be reasonably nice to folks. And many of them would even wait a minute for someone on occasion.
    That is so crucial. If you do mix up with unknown players (pug), you should understand that you gotta sacrifice some of your own playstyle to adapt it to those so it's fun for everyone. If you don't feel like it, just solo or play with like minded folks. It is not right to priorize your fun over other's unless there were clear rules set up.

    As much as I like efficiency, I will never impose my pace in a pug groups unless it was clearly stated in the LFM description. Though I do have some expectations when it comes to EEs or anything that could represent some kind of challenge.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    Isn't this thread ultimately about correcting the "misconception" that raiding just ain't fun? ....
    Nope its just what I lead off with, as reading my whole post would have shown you. There are just a lot of dumb perceptions about raiding which are overblown and oft repeated here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Perceptions: Theres a bunch of reasons people aren't raiding.

    Reality: People aren't raiding because most of the loot has been out-dated making said raids a waste of time.
    Yes another excellent one, everyone's got a theory but the truth is as you say, just look at VON. eSoS and some red scales is all you need to keep a (what 6 year) old raid the most popular raid in the game? Might be 10 VON's for every FoT on thelanis these days. Make it really cool and make it hard to get and people will keep trying, seems like Turbine has forgotten the obvious. I wish there were 10 other hard to get "artifact" like items in the game spread around the old raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  13. #13
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Most commonly the raids that failed had poor or non existent leadership.
    This topic right here could be a thread of its own. I would say that this statement falls under the "completely untrue" category when it comes to raids and DDO. I have been in countless raids where there was superb leadership, it's just that the leader didn't really know what was going on or why - and the raid failed BECAUSE of the leadership, not because of an absence of it or even an unrelated aspect. The leader was specifically the one AT FAULT.

    DDO raids are mostly a metagame. You simply have to have experience running them to understand all the ins-and-outs of completion. Yet another reason why they are unpopular, and why even people that know the ins-and-outs can get tired of explaining things to the uninitiated. "Don't use summons in this part or the next," "Don't kill puppies that are attacking your fellow group members," "Don't attack the large dracolich until the very end," and all the other stuff-that-doesn't-make-sense-but-is-fairly-necessary-for-completion make it so that its really only experience, character power, and teamwork (individual members spotting something that needs done and doing it) that counts. Leadership is useless.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    3) Politics with loot rolling and hard feelings when failure occurs.
    Ah another one thanks:

    P: there lots of drama in raids over loot

    R: even back before TR was an end game thing to do, most of the loot drama was here on the forums. It is incredibly unusual in actual raids to hear anyone making a fuss. Especially now a days with everyone and their brother TR'ing and thus only one step away from potentially being able to use any raid loot that drops for them.

    Basically loot drama is non existent.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    P: I don't want to be a healer because they get all the blame when things go bad.

    R: not hardly, it does happen very infrequently, ( see "D-b*g": world: full of, comment) in fact I've had instances of screwing up where the party members went out of their way to pretend it wasn't my fault. I've had as many or more of those experiences or forgiving party members (no big deal we got this), as I've heard "put down the bow and heal us" comments (exactly 1 time: the Bow is a casting implement with 27% spell power and I'm wearing FoT gauntlets of immortality Mr. D-b*g ).
    I would say it's not this but when I pug a divine for an evening I will get at least one person with zero hamp and no defenses running forward getting swamped and then screaming for a heal or worse dying and swearing at me because I was still on the load screen, etc etc. It doesn't happen every quest by any means but if it happens even once every three days that's enough for me to no longer pug or heal other players, the bs quotient is to high.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    BECAUSE of the leadership, not because of an absence of it or even an unrelated aspect. The leader was specifically the one AT FAULT.
    Yeah at fault, you know "poor" leadership?? Not Sure how you missed that but its Nice to see we agree with each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  17. #17
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    I'd cross of the leadership aspect and put it instead as a failure of communication. I've seen raids that failed with great instructions from the leader and then someone didn't follow them. FoT for example, don't melee the reaver, monk runs over melees the reaver gets half their hp taken out with boom and then runs back towards the party for heals causing a nightmare. (That one recovered but it easily might not have, we left that monk dead.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I would say it's not this but when I pug a divine for an evening I will get at least one person with zero hamp and no defenses running forward getting swamped and then screaming for a heal or worse dying and swearing at me because I was still on the load screen, etc etc. It doesn't happen every quest by any means but if it happens even once every three days that's enough for me to no longer pug or heal other players, the bs quotient is to high.
    I must be very lucky, then. On my cleric life, while leveling, unless I am on a state of mind to take things slow and solo, I leveled mostly by pug. And not even ONCE someone blamed me for "not healing me". And I recall at least two times where I actually left someone dead until I explained why I wasn't raising them immediatelly.

    Maybe it is a server thing more than a divine thing.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I would like to make a note here: This is really contingent upon the raid and the difficulty. Yes, top end raids on elite are not the place for new players to cut their teeth on a raid.

    At one time and still around a bit are the social raids, like Shroud, which were great places for players to learn the raid, when it was run on normal and even hard. Yes, a Shroud Elite is not where a new player belonged.

    Also, lines like: "Link BB's", "Know it" "be in a prime ED" etc, and many other requests in the LFM are not there to show the world the party leader knows how to type, they have a reason, a motive, both to let the person wanting to join that they should be prepared, and to let everyone else know that this might not really the time and place for a first timers lets all learn how to raid type of run. While people may understand a first time run from a player on a hard raid, they also often times will size you up to make sure that as a player you can handle yourself well enough to be a contributing member even on your first run.
    heh,i used see those kind of notes in raid lfms before i knew them,i would ignore that ****. id just join and try to blend in... or otherwise just try to stay alive and contribute cautiously,every raid and many regular quests have those kind of notes,i know i can heal myself (outside of some raids),and thats the only thing im concerned about.

    i still remember my first time running LOB with my pally-"can you tank him?" "sure" "done it before?" "nope" "ok" (opens trade and gives me a +2 returning adamantine throwing axe) ,"just hang back there and throw **** at him,and get healed" -success!

    first time FOT need tank lfm, "can you tank him?" "sure" -ended up tanking one of the undead dragons by mistake. fail. party wipe. "what the hell man? have you not done this before?" "nope,never asked iv done it." -kicked.. lol it can go either way,leadership is a factor,if i listened to all the BYOH,know it,dont suck,zerg lfms id never run anything,lol.

    chances are even if the lfm says "knowit" your gonna get the "be in best destiny,stay together,blah,blah,heals on XXXX etc" and instructions throughout the raid,delivered with the smug monotone elegance,and excitement of ben stine. "we did it... wow." lol

    trust,their is no shortage of elite guild raiders out there who cant wait to instruct the grp as if its some poorly paid job at a pre-school.. they complain about having to lead "noobs" but love the ego boost they get from it.. even if they sound miserable
    Last edited by gripshift22; 09-29-2013 at 03:08 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I must be very lucky, then. On my cleric life, while leveling, unless I am on a state of mind to take things slow and solo, I leveled mostly by pug. And not even ONCE someone blamed me for "not healing me". And I recall at least two times where I actually left someone dead until I explained why I wasn't raising them immediatelly.

    Maybe it is a server thing more than a divine thing.
    I wonder if it's a time frame thing too, i haven't pugged a divine in years because of it, basically since f2p came out.

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