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  1. #1
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Default Paladin enchancements

    my favorite topic....

    ok so since person that was planning and creating paladin enchancements completely ignored last few years of asking for changes on forums, and even more lacked idea what to do.
    here is some ideas what to do:

    1: free tower shield proficiency with defender PRE, it was asked for, for years!!! paladin is feat starved, we get extra feats over level 25, but compared to how many feats fighter gets its just silly, not ot mention that fighter gets towershield as class feat at lvl 1... i think that giveing a defender a free proficiency would be the right way, since half of other classes gets proficiency in some weapons (example: kukri for assasin) so why this cant be done for pally.

    2: every melee class gets crit range and crit confirmation enchancements, paladin gets only as part of smite, what about 99% of other nonsmite attacks?

    3: both paladin prestiges should have own smite enchancemetns, for kotc its exalted smite, that is focused on damage, defender could get own smite called righteous smite, it would give extra damage, and stacks of vulnerable to target, same as the warpriest one (i dont see reason why not), also when righteousness is active, righteous smite would do 500% hate. each smite would be 2 ap, one tier only

    4. smite charges giveing enchancemetns should be merged and placed as 1 enchancement on each tree, 3 tiers, each tier gives +2 smite charges, and boost crit multiplier/range on corresponding smite (exalted or righteous depending on the pre its taken from), tier 2 would also give a 50% chance for smite charge to be returned on ANY crit attack (it could be 33% too.) tier 3 would add 150% chance on natural 20. meaning that on 20 you get 1 charge back, and have 50% chance to get second one.

    5. defender tier 5 harbored by light, please remove guard effect off it and replace it with heal amp, it would then be worth the 2 ap per tier.

    6. lower the ap cost on armor and shield % ac boost enchancements in tier 4 and 5, it seriously takes too much ap.

    7. merge the +6 str and con, and 20% hp into one tier 5 enchancement, and remove that THING about haveing shield on to have it active, not only its broken, and can potentialy kill paladin on rapid swapping of weapons, but also takes away a lot of hp on the possiblity of grabbing two handed weapon by tank to do bit more dps when tank is not needed. i would rather think that first 3 enchancemetns that give hate gen, saves and prr would be affected by this, since that makes much more sense, idk whats the logic behind takeing away str and con and hp for not wearing the shield, makeing it tier 5 enchancement will mean that paladin has to commit to this prestige to get it.

    8. this thing could work good for both fighter tank and paladin, idea is to make enchancemetns that UPGRADE defensive fighting toggle feat we get at level one, it could upgrade that feat with some extra effects, like parry or riposte, but what i would love to see in it is an ability to walk around at walk speed with shield block on, oposted to the jumping around or tumbling whne defensive fighting is active, also to make main hand attacks at enemy with +50%/+100% hate generation, at slower attack speed BUT retaining the shield block bonuses. would make that new shield block feat actualy a thing that everyone would want to have on tank.

    9. since you took away weapons of good capstone and gave it only for kotc paladins, then please add bless weapon spell, it could make held weapon good aligned.

    10. passive enchancements with special effects procced on shield bash, like trip, unbalance (it could lower the dc for trip on enemy for example to reasonable level so even paladin can trip stuff) overrun, maybe some enchancements with specific to paladin debuffs on enemies added to smites, diffrent for both kotc and defender.

    11. probably pointless to ask but divine might to be made back a bonus to damage instead of str, bonus to str is pointless, it not only does not stack with insight items but even if it did, for a heroic ability that is accessible at low levels, its pointless, noone will be able to get enough charisma to get reasonable bonus out of DM to matter. each 4 points of charisma count as 1 point to damage....... thats seriously too high expense for so low gain, original version of it rewards buffing up charisma, new one just shows how pointless it is to try, if you fear that this low level ability will be exploited on splashes add to it paladin level check, that gives full 100% charisma bonus to dmg only with full 20 paladin levels.

    thats all for now, im pretty sure i left out something, but cant remember what, anyway leave some comments about it.
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 09-28-2013 at 01:39 PM. Reason: update.
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  2. #2
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    There is not really anything about upping the dps that Paladins do or helping non tank Paladins which is the aspect of the class that needs the most help. Sounds like you are a tank that just wants to buff your build.
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  3. #3

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    I rather like his ideas on recharging smites.

    Even just giving 1 smite back per vorpal (similar to adrenaline) would be aces.

  4. #4
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    There is not really anything about upping the dps that Paladins do or helping non tank Paladins which is the aspect of the class that needs the most help. Sounds like you are a tank that just wants to buff your build.
    yes i play a tank.
    no i dont want to buff my build, i want things back i had before new enchacnemetns hit the fan, and i want for turbine to be creative about paladin enchancemetns the same way as they did with bard, rogue, and all otehr classes that got lot of changes for the better, all classes got improvements and pally and tanks overall got .....

    and about tanks? whats so wrong about them haveing actual dps, where ddo becomes more and more dps game, seriously...... its not about buffing pally or tanks, its about balancing those classes and playtypes against all other classes doing thousands of damage per hit, how do oyu supposed to hold aggro against that huh?
    "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    my favorite topic....

    ok so since person that was planning and creating paladin enchancements completely ignored last few years of asking for changes on forums, and even more lacked idea what to do.
    here is some ideas what to do:

    1: free tower shield proficiency with defender PRE, it was asked for, for years!!! paladin is feat starved, we get extra feats over level 25, but compared to how many feats fighter gets its just silly, not ot mention that fighter gets towershield as class feat at lvl 1... i think that giveing a defender a free proficiency would be the right way, since half of other classes gets proficiency in some weapons (example: kukri for assasin) so why this cant be done for pally.
    I like this idea, but...not sure if it should be part of the Defender PrE. Maybe it could work, maybe not. As it stands, the extra HP and Positive Spellpower are nice, so losing them for Tower Shield Proficiency would be pointless. Added to that first Core augment, on the other hand, is more than nice (and helps distinguish the Sacred Defender from the Stalwart Defender)...but it really begs the question of whether the proficiency should be added to Paladins directly in the first place, rather than give it as part of an enhancement. What makes Fighters have Tower Shield Proficiencies while Paladins, who are by and large built for tanking, don't? Aside from "it's in the PHB" (which is kind of a whoop-de-doo these days), there's little argument over it. I really want the devs to at least consider this one, but without removing anything; feat starvation is STILL the worst enemy of all Paladins.

    2: every melee class gets crit range and crit confirmation enchancements, paladin gets only as part of smite, what about 99% of other nonsmite attacks?
    Don't seem to agree with this one. You get critical threat range/critical multiplier benefits on where it really matters, so I don't see any problems with that. Paladins really don't rely much on direct damage. On the other hand, if they were freed some feats, they could make better use of Tactical DC increases, which leads to a latter bit...

    3: both paladin prestiges should have own smite enchancemetns, for kotc its exalted smite, that is focused on damage, defender could get own smite called righteous smite, it would give extra damage, and stacks of vulnerable to target, same as the warpriest one (i dont see reason why not), also when righteousness is active, righteous smite would do 500% hate. each smite would be 2 ap, one tier only
    I prefer a bit of substance to "maneuvers that aren't called maneuvers", so I don't agree much to Righteous Smite. Not a fan of the stack mechanic either.

    4. smite charges giveing enchancemetns should be merged and placed as 1 enchancement on each tree, 3 tiers, each tier gives +2 smite charges, and boost crit multiplier/range on corresponding smite (exalted or righteous depending on the pre its taken from), tier 2 would also give a 50% chance for smite charge to be returned on ANY crit attack (it could be 33% too.) tier 3 would add 150% chance on natural 20. meaning that on 20 you get 1 charge back, and have 50% chance to get second one.
    I think I see a pattern here. Basically, you're asking that each tree has offensive and defensive measures, pretty much defeating the purpose of making each tree distinct whatsoever. If it were something like, say, Ascetic Training or Elemental Attacks from the Monk, I could agree (that's one way to spread out some points and get more utility). As it stands, if you want some boost to your smites, you incline a bit towards KotC. That's not so bad after all.

    5. defender tier 5 harbored by light, please remove guard effect off it and replace it with heal amp, it would then be worth the 2 ap per tier
    .

    Harbored by Light is an odd ability, I say. I'd remove it altogether: PRR and Light Guard when blocking with a shield is pointless. If the Light Guard was like that of the Warpriest, which is always active, then it'd justify some of the costs, but you're basically sacrificing your damage potential by turtling. I'd go much, much further: replace PRR with healing amp, AND keep Light Guard but as Warpriest. Far further; as I said before, but keep PRR. That's probably 25 PRR, 15% healing amp and 5d4 damage every time you get hit, without having to wield a shield.

    6. lower the ap cost on armor and shield % ac boost enchancements in tier 4 and 5, it seriously takes too much ap.
    Honestly, I'd revise the costs altogether. Many things require spending 2 AP per tier/rank, which becomes excessively costly eventually. Might as well double the shield % increase, because it's low for what offers; many kinds of shields have a base AC of 1 or 2, which means you need 50% shield increase to make them meaningful; a +5 heavy shield, which should be pretty common, grants a +6 shield bonus to AC, which would translate to a +9 with a 50% increase. With a +15% increase, as it currently stands...it only boosts to a +7. That's...what, 6 AP for a +1 boost to AC? Might as well boost PRR from shields or doublestrike bonuses from it as well, an idea I read somewhere else and I heartily agree with the poster who wrote that.

    7. merge the +6 str and con, and 20% hp into one tier 5 enchancement, and remove that THING about haveing shield on to have it active, not only its broken, and can potentialy kill paladin on rapid swapping of weapons, but also takes away a lot of hp on the possiblity of grabbing two handed weapon by tank to do bit more dps when tank is not needed. i would rather think that first 3 enchancemetns that give hate gen, saves and prr would be affected by this, since that makes much more sense, idk whats the logic behind takeing away str and con and hp for not wearing the shield, makeing it tier 5 enchancement will mean that paladin has to commit to this prestige to get it.
    That's...basically the idea, but I'd say that both Fighters and Paladins should have their Defensive Stances grant Str, Con and HP right from the get-go.

    Look at the Monk. All of the Monks' 4 stances increase with level. The Animal Form enhancements ALSO increase with level. Meanwhile, something like Defensive Stance requires...what, 20 AP to be moderately useful? Even a +2 Str and +2 Con alongside the PRR bonus makes Def. Stance meaningful, since otherwise you end up with a stance that sacrifices your speed for PRR and some minor bonuses. If you're getting the Stance, you're pretty much committing to the PrE anyways.

    On the other hand, I agree with dropping the shield requirement. I mean, why can't you justify that wielding a two-handed weapon still lets you focus on defense? It makes THF Pallies consider Sacred Defender.

    8. this thing could work good for both fighter tank and paladin, idea is to make enchancemetns that UPGRADE defensive fighting toggle feat we get at level one, it could upgrade that feat with some extra effects, like parry or riposte, but what i would love to see in it is an ability to walk around at walk speed with shield block on, oposted to the jumping around or tumbling whne defensive fighting is active, also to make main hand attacks at enemy with +50%/+100% hate generation, at slower attack speed BUT retaining the shield block bonuses. would make that new shield block feat actualy a thing that everyone would want to have on tank.
    Erm...isn't that essentially what Combat Expertise does? Defensive Fighting is rarely worthwhile, but CE requires Int to obtain, which I can understand the reason even if mechanically it's ridiculous (it's meant to represent the fencing fighting style, but it never got any further). I'd say that you could grant something akin to what Barbs and WF get with Power Attack, but with defensive fighting/CE. That's a good start, but note that anything that boosts Def. Fighting should also boost CE, since it's the natural progression.

    9. since you took away weapons of good capstone and gave it only for kotc paladins, then please add bless weapon spell, it could make held weapon good aligned.
    I'm still waiting for the proper Shield Other spell to appear. I am infinitely grateful to the Devs for removing the abortion of nature that was the "Shield Other" enhancement line from the ill-built Protection tree, but it's about time that they add some damage redirection tanking to the Paladin, who's the best suited for it. Bless Weapon could act much as Align Weapon, though, with the extra bonus of immediate crit confirmation.

    10. passive enchancements with special effects procced on shield bash, like trip, unbalance (it could lower the dc for trip on enemy for example to reasonable level so even paladin can trip stuff) overrun, maybe some enchancements with specific to paladin debuffs on enemies added to smites, diffrent for both kotc and defender.
    You do know that's an entire feat chain altogether, no? A Fighter or Paladin could definitely look for this line, where Shield Bashes (direct or indirect) provide something along the lines of what Swashbucker did (the Daze Guard effect). Shield Charge and Shield Slam are examples of it. Block Arrow would also be nice, now that Deflect Arrows seems to be working correctly. Then again, that would require Paladins having more feats, but this is actually good because it'd promote having Pallies get bonus feats (and replace that dreaded Remove Disease, because not even giving it Greater Restoration makes it useful).

    11. probably pointless to ask but divine might to be made back a bonus to damage instead of str, bonus to str is pointless, it not only does not stack with insight items but even if it did, for a heroic ability that is accessible at low levels, its pointless, noone will be able to get enough charisma to get reasonable bonus out of DM to matter. each 4 points of charisma count as 1 point to damage....... thats seriously too high expense for so low gain, original version of it rewards buffing up charisma, new one just shows how pointless it is to try, if you fear that this low level ability will be exploited on splashes add to it paladin level check, that gives full 100% charisma bonus to dmg only with full 20 paladin levels.
    No. No. Just...no.

    You don't seem to understand how Divine Might works now. I would say that Divine Might should be shifted to Sacred bonus (and the Defensive Stance bonus to Competence, as per the Fighter version), but remain as is.

    Every 4 points of Charisma mean 2 points of Strength, which means +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls (+1.5 if wielding a 2H weapon), +1 to the DC of all Tactical feats (including Sunder and Trip, which you already get), and directly increase your Strength in case you need to break open doors. It's VERY useful, and all it takes is a resource that you barely use (Turn Undead; it's too weak to matter when compared to a Cleric, useless when you're not fighting undead and the only real threat to it is Divine Righteousness). Perhaps it's too costly for what it offers, but if used correctly, it's great.

    The original version never, EVER, rewarded buffing up Charisma (at least, the one before the enhancement pass). You needed to devote all starting points from the Point Buy, your level-based increases, OR eating Tomes to get DM IV which...only granted a +8 bonus to damage for 1 minute. Compared to that, this version of DM is leagues better. It's creative, and useful all around; reverting it to a mindless damage bonus is meaningless. Note: for a +8 to damage, you need a magical number of 26 Charisma. That's difficult to get for a MAD class (one that depends on Str, Con AND Cha), but you can get a decent 22 easily with 16 Cha and a +6 Cha item. That's about the bare minimum you can justify, and it also adds to your saves. That 22 Cha amounts to +6 Cha modifier, which is effectively a +6 Str increase. All in all, you require only boosting Charisma by 4 to overcome the entirety of the pre-Enh. Pass DM enhancement. Is it really so hard to get 4 points? There's insight bonuses to Charisma, Great Charisma feat, level-based increases, enhancement-based increases, tomes, airship buffs...that's a LOT of increases to Cha. Far more easier to buff than base Charisma, which was the benchmark of old DM.

  6. #6
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    I like this idea, but...not sure if it should be part of the Defender PrE. Maybe it could work, maybe not. As it stands, the extra HP and Positive Spellpower are nice, so losing them for Tower Shield Proficiency would be pointless. Added to that first Core augment, on the other hand, is more than nice (and helps distinguish the Sacred Defender from the Stalwart Defender)...but it really begs the question of whether the proficiency should be added to Paladins directly in the first place, rather than give it as part of an enhancement. What makes Fighters have Tower Shield Proficiencies while Paladins, who are by and large built for tanking, don't? Aside from "it's in the PHB" (which is kind of a whoop-de-doo these days), there's little argument over it. I really want the devs to at least consider this one, but without removing anything; feat starvation is STILL the worst enemy of all Paladins.
    i didint say anything about removeing stuff to give proficiency, same as with with all other classes that get proficiency in something in their pre, but im not sure sure if it should be core enchanceemnt OR tier 5 enchancement so its not that easy to get with splash, so either a 3rd or 4th core enchancement OR tier 4 or 5 in the tree, same as with medium armor in warchanter. if its by design that paladins are not supposed to use towershields, then heavy shields need a boost in prestige so they can be closer to tower shield on ac and prr, sure you can go around it, get umd and stack of masters touch, and you have yourself a proficiency... but seriously, does it not seems right for a prestige that is meant to be a tank to use best possible shield?



    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    Don't seem to agree with this one. You get critical threat range/critical multiplier benefits on where it really matters, so I don't see any problems with that. Paladins really don't rely much on direct damage. On the other hand, if they were freed some feats, they could make better use of Tactical DC increases, which leads to a latter bit...
    maybe it should be a "choose what you want to get" kind of enchancement like in racial trees, where you would have options what you want to buff, and as for paladins not relying on direct damage? tell me who does not rely on direct damage in this game? ddo is not anymore a game where you can be a flower picker running with your party through a quest, its very hard to gear up char if you cant get into party becouse you have too low dps, and its hard to get any reasonable dps on pally

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    I prefer a bit of substance to "maneuvers that aren't called maneuvers", so I don't agree much to Righteous Smite. Not a fan of the stack mechanic either.

    I think I see a pattern here. Basically, you're asking that each tree has offensive and defensive measures, pretty much defeating the purpose of making each tree distinct whatsoever. If it were something like, say, Ascetic Training or Elemental Attacks from the Monk, I could agree (that's one way to spread out some points and get more utility). As it stands, if you want some boost to your smites, you incline a bit towards KotC. That's not so bad after all.
    what i meant with it is that simite could get some extra effects that are procced on smite, depending on what is currently active, so ok it would not even need any new smite clickie as long as there would be enchancement that allows to buff up the feat smite with some usefull stuff, a "righteous smite" was just a thought, about the topic of other classes doing so much dps that its hard to keep aggro most of times, so here comes that 500% more hate on smite, it was just an example, effects attached to smites could vary for each PRE, and be separate, in separate trees, and second thing about why smite enchancements in both trees, i was just thingking about it this way becouse of too high ap costs to move around trees, its hard enough to take all nessesary enchancements from defender alone to be still considered a tank, not to mention to get very costly stuff from kotc and racial.


    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    Harbored by Light is an odd ability, I say. I'd remove it altogether: PRR and Light Guard when blocking with a shield is pointless. If the Light Guard was like that of the Warpriest, which is always active, then it'd justify some of the costs, but you're basically sacrificing your damage potential by turtling. I'd go much, much further: replace PRR with healing amp, AND keep Light Guard but as Warpriest. Far further; as I said before, but keep PRR. That's probably 25 PRR, 15% healing amp and 5d4 damage every time you get hit, without having to wield a shield.
    your idea of what it should be is oposite to mine, so i would say it calls for multi choice enchancement, choose what you want to have, becouse for me personaly it would be much more important to have prr and heal amp than a guard, i dont like to have constant guards, unless they are nondamage guards, so i would say few versions of a enchancement to choose from: prr+heal amp/prr + guard/guard+ heal amp= everyone happy



    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    Honestly, I'd revise the costs altogether. Many things require spending 2 AP per tier/rank, which becomes excessively costly eventually. Might as well double the shield % increase, because it's low for what offers; many kinds of shields have a base AC of 1 or 2, which means you need 50% shield increase to make them meaningful; a +5 heavy shield, which should be pretty common, grants a +6 shield bonus to AC, which would translate to a +9 with a 50% increase. With a +15% increase, as it currently stands...it only boosts to a +7. That's...what, 6 AP for a +1 boost to AC? Might as well boost PRR from shields or doublestrike bonuses from it as well, an idea I read somewhere else and I heartily agree with the poster who wrote that.
    that too, i would say that idea of 2 points for 3 tiers is wrong all together, if something HAS to cost more then it should cost 2 ap only for first tier of it, to unlock it, upgrades should be 1 ap, i forgot to mention it but i also think that those enchancements are way too high in tree.



    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    That's...basically the idea, but I'd say that both Fighters and Paladins should have their Defensive Stances grant Str, Con and HP right from the get-go.

    Look at the Monk. All of the Monks' 4 stances increase with level. The Animal Form enhancements ALSO increase with level. Meanwhile, something like Defensive Stance requires...what, 20 AP to be moderately useful? Even a +2 Str and +2 Con alongside the PRR bonus makes Def. Stance meaningful, since otherwise you end up with a stance that sacrifices your speed for PRR and some minor bonuses. If you're getting the Stance, you're pretty much committing to the PrE anyways.

    On the other hand, I agree with dropping the shield requirement. I mean, why can't you justify that wielding a two-handed weapon still lets you focus on defense? It makes THF Pallies consider Sacred Defender.
    yes but then again if it was like that every splash could be exploited on splashes again, placeing this high in tree in tier 5 would mean that to get it stacked all the way to +6 and +20% would mean you need to be enough levels in the class, btw this enchancement should have level gate on each tier.

    other possibility would be adding it straight to stance core enchancement and makeing core enchancements after this one, add +2/+4/+6 and % hp, with highest bonus as part of capstone.


    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    Erm...isn't that essentially what Combat Expertise does? Defensive Fighting is rarely worthwhile, but CE requires Int to obtain, which I can understand the reason even if mechanically it's ridiculous (it's meant to represent the fencing fighting style, but it never got any further). I'd say that you could grant something akin to what Barbs and WF get with Power Attack, but with defensive fighting/CE. That's a good start, but note that anything that boosts Def. Fighting should also boost CE, since it's the natural progression.
    i used defensive fighting as example, yes it would have to do same thing for both DF and CE, ce would always be better, but core of idea remains, makeing "defensive fighting" a real defensive fighting, main idea is to make it possible to use all advanced shield bonuses that are barely used most of time, in old times when intimitanking was the way, the shieldblock bonuses were important, now if you try to shield block while tanking you end up chaseing after the target in few seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    I'm still waiting for the proper Shield Other spell to appear. I am infinitely grateful to the Devs for removing the abortion of nature that was the "Shield Other" enhancement line from the ill-built Protection tree, but it's about time that they add some damage redirection tanking to the Paladin, who's the best suited for it. Bless Weapon could act much as Align Weapon, though, with the extra bonus of immediate crit confirmation.
    would be nice, and yes, i think that we should get a bless weapon spell, and MAYBE holy weapon spell to be reworked to something similar but with maybe temporary silver and cold iron dr, self use only so artificers would not feel bad about it

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    You do know that's an entire feat chain altogether, no? A Fighter or Paladin could definitely look for this line, where Shield Bashes (direct or indirect) provide something along the lines of what Swashbucker did (the Daze Guard effect). Shield Charge and Shield Slam are examples of it. Block Arrow would also be nice, now that Deflect Arrows seems to be working correctly. Then again, that would require Paladins having more feats, but this is actually good because it'd promote having Pallies get bonus feats (and replace that dreaded Remove Disease, because not even giving it Greater Restoration makes it useful).
    the reason why i sugested for it to be enchancement is exactly becouse of feat starvation diet on pally, and no NO MORE SHIELD FEATS.... plsease..... it seriosuly getting hard to sqeeze in all the must have stuff, without loseing all of the i want to have things, if there will be more shield feats, then we can just let game autolevel us becosue we wont have any choices at all. again a multichoice enchancement may be the right way to go, to choose what you want your shield bash to do


    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    No. No. Just...no.

    You don't seem to understand how Divine Might works now. I would say that Divine Might should be shifted to Sacred bonus (and the Defensive Stance bonus to Competence, as per the Fighter version), but remain as is.

    Every 4 points of Charisma mean 2 points of Strength, which means +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls (+1.5 if wielding a 2H weapon), +1 to the DC of all Tactical feats (including Sunder and Trip, which you already get), and directly increase your Strength in case you need to break open doors. It's VERY useful, and all it takes is a resource that you barely use (Turn Undead; it's too weak to matter when compared to a Cleric, useless when you're not fighting undead and the only real threat to it is Divine Righteousness). Perhaps it's too costly for what it offers, but if used correctly, it's great.
    i hope its sarcasm.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    The original version never, EVER, rewarded buffing up Charisma (at least, the one before the enhancement pass). You needed to devote all starting points from the Point Buy, your level-based increases, OR eating Tomes to get DM IV which...only granted a +8 bonus to damage for 1 minute. Compared to that, this version of DM is leagues better. It's creative, and useful all around; reverting it to a mindless damage bonus is meaningless. Note: for a +8 to damage, you need a magical number of 26 Charisma. That's difficult to get for a MAD class (one that depends on Str, Con AND Cha), but you can get a decent 22 easily with 16 Cha and a +6 Cha item. That's about the bare minimum you can justify, and it also adds to your saves. That 22 Cha amounts to +6 Cha modifier, which is effectively a +6 Str increase. All in all, you require only boosting Charisma by 4 to overcome the entirety of the pre-Enh. Pass DM enhancement. Is it really so hard to get 4 points? There's insight bonuses to Charisma, Great Charisma feat, level-based increases, enhancement-based increases, tomes, airship buffs...that's a LOT of increases to Cha. Far more easier to buff than base Charisma, which was the benchmark of old DM.
    i think you forget that this enchancement is for heroic levels, on heroic levels you wont get meaningful bonus out of this new dm, to get this +8 to damage that old dm was giveing you would need to have 42 charisma, its highly unrealistic to get that high on epic levels without gimping yourself, have you looked at the kensai? how much extra damage they get out of all of their enchancements???, seriously kotc paladin getting some low +3+4 to damage, attack and dc aint enoguh to justify it, what about all the builds that use cha to attack and damage? they max out cha in any way possible to get DM that gives them bonus to.......... oh wait... str.... ?, your talking about tactics dc, on paladin its just unreal idea, since paladins never did get any proper enchancements that woudl actualy GIVE any dc boosts, so even with this new dm you never get dc on stunning trip or w/e else high enough to work on levels above 20, to conclude i just mean that new dm is just a MEH thing, why bother comes to mind, where bonus recieved from it is just too low to matter in any way compared to the cost in both ap/tomes to get cha high, dont forget that this so priceless +4 tomes of charisma with this new system mean +1 bonus to damage and dc.... way to go

    i hope this wall of text clears my previous post a bit :P
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 09-30-2013 at 01:01 PM. Reason: adding new bricks to wall...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    i didint say anything about removeing stuff to give proficiency, same as with with all other classes that get proficiency in something in their pre, but im not sure sure if it should be core enchanceemnt OR tier 5 enchancement so its not that easy to get with splash, so either a 3rd or 4th core enchancement OR tier 4 or 5 in the tree, same as with medium armor in warchanter. if its by design that paladins are not supposed to use towershields, then heavy shields need a boost in prestige so they can be closer to tower shield on ac and prr, sure you can go around it, get umd and stack of masters touch, and you have yourself a proficiency... but seriously, does it not seems right for a prestige that is meant to be a tank to use best possible shield?
    The Fighter gets Tower Shield Proficiency as a class feat. You can dip in 1 level of Fighter and get it. The Paladin is meant to be better suited than a Fighter to be a tank, and the Paladin doesn't get it. This is what I meant: instead of making it part of an Enhancement, make it part of the class itself.

    I mentioned the bit about legacy (they don't get proficiency with Tower Shields in tabletop) as the only explanation why Paladins don't get it here, but that doesn't mean I agree with that argument. To me, Paladins should get Tower Shield Prof. right from the start, as Fighters do; unlike on tabletop, Tower Shields are meant to be the top end in terms of shield protection.

    As for heavy shields being better, consider the following. Both bucklers and light shields grant the same amount of AC, and heavy shields grant 1 extra point of AC. Making the shield progression buckler 1/light shield 2/heavy shield 3/tower shield 4 would be a good start, though I'd say it should be slightly better (though, with Darkwood and Densewood Shields granting a better AC bonus, that's a given). It's only natural to follow that progression, as what makes each shield distinctive in tabletop (bucklers let you use the other hand for everything including TWF, light shields let you use the hand for casting, heavy shields can be used for shield bashing, tower shields grant cover) isn't used here. Might as well make each shield somewhat distinctive.

    maybe it should be a "choose what you want to get" kind of enchancement like in racial trees, where you would have options what you want to buff, and as for paladins not relying on direct damage? tell me who does not rely on direct damage in this game? ddo is not anymore a game where you can be a flower picker running with your party through a quest, its very hard to gear up char if you cant get into party becouse you have too low dps, and its hard to get any reasonable dps on pally
    I see you didnt get what I meant.

    When I spoke of "direct damage", I didn't refer to the act of dealing damage alone. To me, there's three different ways to deal damage here, at least in terms of melee damage (which is what applies to most Paladins). "Direct damage" is the thing Fighters and Barbs do; each time they make a swing, you can expect them to do X damage (barring crits). "Precision damage" is what Rogues do; each time they make a swing, they deal X+Y damage, where "Y" is the amount of extra damage dice, which doesn't always apply (and that doesn't get multiplied on a crit.) What Paladins do, almost by design, is "burst damage"; when they deploy their super-attack, they deal a lot of damage, but when you measure their DPS, it's lower than what they can do normally.

    Exalted Smite runs on the idea of boosting burst damage by making it precision + burst: when you smite, you deal a burst of damage which can improve on a successful crit. The enhancement line essentially increases the chances of landing that crit, and improving the damage you deal when landing that crit; if you land the attack in the right way, you deal immense amounts of damage (something the Fighter or Barb would have to spend a few swings to achieve), but your overall damage is still much lower (thus, Fighters and Barbs still outmatch you in terms of damage).

    That's what I meant about "not relying on direct damage"; they rely better on setting up their Smites to deal maximum amounts of damage, because that's their key offensive ability, much like the key offensive ability of a Barbarian is to fly into a Rage, the key offensive ability of the Rogue is their Sneak Attack and the key offensive ability of the Ranger is...well, it should be Favored Enemy, but they get a mix of sustained + burst through Manyshot (then again, Manyshot is a feat, so it's not like it's unique to the Ranger).

    Note Divine Sacrifice, as well; you spend some SP and HP, and you deal extra damage. Again, burst damage. ONLY the Paladin get DS, much like only the Pally gets to Smite right from the get-go (Clerics and FvS can now smite as well, but they don't get the insane burst damage a Paladin can bring). KotC is the enhancement line that somewhat increases the sustained/direct damage a Paladin can bring, but it's evident that the core of KotC is reinforcing the Paladin's burst damage potential.

    what i meant with it is that simite could get some extra effects that are procced on smite, depending on what is currently active, so ok it would not even need any new smite clickie as long as there would be enchancement that allows to buff up the feat smite with some usefull stuff, a "righteous smite" was just a thought, about the topic of other classes doing so much dps that its hard to keep aggro most of times, so here comes that 500% more hate on smite, it was just an example, effects attached to smites could vary for each PRE, and be separate, in separate trees, and second thing about why smite enchancements in both trees, i was just thingking about it this way becouse of too high ap costs to move around trees, its hard enough to take all nessesary enchancements from defender alone to be still considered a tank, not to mention to get very costly stuff from kotc and racial.
    Look at what you're saying at that last sentence. If the AP costs for Paladin abilities were slashed all the way, you'd probably spend a bit more on KotC and racials, and probably get a higher increase in your direct damage potential (through Slayer of Evil and Courage of Heaven, even if they're limited to Evil creatures; fortunately, Evil creatures comprise more than half of the enemies around, so at least you get the free 2d6 to damage at most times). You'd do better to request slashing AP costs all over the Paladin, because some AP costs are excessive (Divine Might, Exalted Smite...I'd say Damage Boost as well, but if you're a human, Action Boosts are somewhat cheaper).

    I don't reject the idea of rider effects on smites, which seems to be what you wanted to do (so I excuse for the "maneuvers that aren't maneuvers bit"; that's aimed to some of the new abilities from, say, Kensai or FB). However, 500% extra hate is...quite frankly, boring. Go a bit more creative; how about making smite damage into area damage? Stunning and eventually paralyzing creatures on a smite? That makes your smites much more effective and aids with tanking: if you cause damage to all enemies in area, you make those enemies easier to defeat as their HP is lowered, and you draw THEIR aggro as well; whereas paralyzing an opponent takes them out of commission for a while, letting you focus on another enemy. Tanking isn't necessarily drawing hate; that's purely an MMO thing. Your stance + Divine Righteousness should (should!) offer more than enough threat generation (that it doesn't because the stance hate and the Diviine Righteousness hate are both Sacred bonuses is completely ridiculous from the devs' part), and that combined with a well-landed smite should draw hate from the Fighter or Barb, who are the sustained damage dealers.

    your idea of what it should be is oposite to mine, so i would say it calls for multi choice enchancement, choose what you want to have, becouse for me personaly it would be much more important to have prr and heal amp than a guard, i dont like to have constant guards, unless they are nondamage guards, so i would say few versions of a enchancement to choose from: prr+heal amp/prr + guard/guard+ heal amp= everyone happy
    I like the idea of guards, as I subscribe to the school of damage redirection (you tank by having the enemies kill themselves as you reflect their damage, and have the damage they deal to enemies directed towards you, so hate becomes meaningless as you redirect all damage to one person which is easier to heal than many), so I don't mind damage-dealing guards. It's a way to directly increase your damage without having to focus on actually landing a hit.

    That said: note what I said on the last sentence. I'm not a fan of PRR, because you need an absurdly high amount of it to really matter (it has diminishing returns, and you need around 145 PRR to reduce all damage by 50%, so 25 PRR can only help as much). However, I topped that by making Harbored by Light grant all THREE effects at once. The healing amp is far, far more useful than PRR IMO; yet, you can have immense amounts of PRR and you could still take a good bit of damage, so stacking PRR on top doesn't make it overpowered. With all three, you can reduce damage by about 13% (or less, based on how much actual PRR you have) AND deal about 12-13 points of damage with each hit. If an enemy deals 100 points of damage, you're essentially reflecting all the damage they deal back, which is what damage redirection actually promotes.

    yes but then again if it was like that every splash could be exploited on splashes again, placeing this high in tree in tier 5 would mean that to get it stacked all the way to +6 and +20% would mean you need to be enough levels in the class, btw this enchancement should have level gate on each tier.

    other possibility would be adding it straight to stance core enchancement and makeing core enchancements after this one, add +2/+4/+6 and % hp, with highest bonus as part of capstone.
    Don't...seem to get this one.

    I make the reference to Monks and their Animal Forms for some reasons; basically, Monks get a boost to their stats just by gaining levels, but they get a boost to their stats right from the start, instead of having to wait 5-12 levels to get them all at once. Animal Forms are worse, because they offer boons right from the start and they get their first increase at 3rd level, well within the range of a splash (and dangerously close to the range of a dip). Dipping 6 levels in Monk gets you a +4 to one stat and a single bonus from your Animal Form if you spend 3 AP for them (1 for the Henshin Mystic first Core, then 2 AP for the actual enhancement), but you need to wait until level 6 to get a +2 bonus to a single score (or two), if you have enough AP to acquire them? That's why I said that they should get at least a +2 to Strength and Constitution right from the get-go, because this is the only stance that grants too little for the level it's acquired.

    Though, I can concede with your second option. If you're getting those boosts as Core enhancements, you're devoting to the class (and potentially the stance) anyways. It hurts a bit with dips (the highest enhancement would require you to stay pure and not multiclass), so I'd say you could keep Greater Sacred Defense and make the Capstone enhancement ALSO grant the bonus, so that Pure characters get a huge bonus for staying pure, compared to dipping for diversity. Nice idea.

    i used defensive fighting as example, yes it would have to do same thing for both DF and CE, ce would always be better, but core of idea remains, makeing "defensive fighting" a real defensive fighting, main idea is to make it possible to use all advanced shield bonuses that are barely used most of time, in old times when intimitanking was the way, the shieldblock bonuses were important, now if you try to shield block while tanking you end up chaseing after the target in few seconds.
    To me, as it stands both in here and in tabletop, Combat Expertise is the natural improvement to Defensive Fighting, so it's really meaningless that you need something like Int 13 to access it. I mentioned that bit about CE being the stand-in for fencing because it IS (note the Swashbuckler and the Duelist in tabletop, and you'll notice both include having high Intelligence to apply to AC or damage), but that doesn't mean I agree with the idea. CE should be easier to access. Then again, this is an issue I have with both CE and Power Attack (the latter should be just like on Tabletop, where you sacrifice more of your BAB for more damage; the PA as it currently stands should be an option for any melee class, much like Sunder or Trip).

    The problem lies in that adding more abilities adds to the AP cost, which as you mentioned before, Paladins suffer from. Thus, the best way to work this out would be through enhancement replacements. I could see Sacred Armor/Shield Mastery (and by consequence, Stalwart Defense/Shield Mastery) turned into abilities a la Improved Power Attack (a slight loss to attack bonus, but a higher percentage boost to AC, added Dodge that's independent from your Dex modifier, and perhaps a passive boost to maximum Dodge), and since it'd replace these, you'd end up with no more AP spent than you'd need.

    However, when you mentioned "the devs need to improve Defensive Fighting", I mentioned CE because it's (almost by definition) the improvement to DF. The way you mentioned it, it felt like the only thing that needed improvement was Defensive Fighting.

    would be nice, and yes, i think that we should get a bless weapon spell, and MAYBE holy weapon spell to be reworked to something similar but with maybe temporary silver and cold iron dr, self use only so artificers would not feel bad about it
    Holy Sword in tabletop applies to any weapon you touch, not just swords. So forcing you to get blessed Cold Iron weapons to fuel them is pretty ridiculous. Considering that Artiess get Enchant Weapon and similar temp. item enhancements, Holy Sword could be turned into a pretty good item enhancement (+1 stacking Enhancement bonus, the Holy weapon property and the ability to bypass Silver and Cold Iron DR, as you mentioned), and make it Personal (again, what you suggested). Arties won't feel bad by that; it just means they can't add Deadly Weapons on you, or Elemental Weapons. Actually, you could allow Pallies to use the spell on other people and Arties wouldn't feel bad, because Pallies don't get enough SP to justify that kind of buff.

    the reason why i sugested for it to be enchancement is exactly becouse of feat starvation diet on pally, and no NO MORE SHIELD FEATS.... plsease..... it seriosuly getting hard to sqeeze in all the must have stuff, without loseing all of the i want to have things, if there will be more shield feats, then we can just let game autolevel us becosue we wont have any choices at all. again a multichoice enchancement may be the right way to go, to choose what you want your shield bash to do
    I gave out the idea of more feats because they already exist (Shield Charge and Shield Slam are on Complete Warrior, a tabletop supplement, and Block Arrows is in Heroes of Battle, another supplement), and because it'd promote the idea that Paladins NEED more feats. Pallies already need most of what the Fighters can get, AND they also get access to Metamagic feats, just adding to the starvation. Right now, they NEED more feats; suggesting them as feats rather than as enhancements would open those options to Fighters (and not just Stalwart Defenders and Sacred Defenders, but to anyone who actually wants to go S&B offensively, as much of an oxymoron as it sounds) and hinting the idea that "Pallies would definitely get them if they had more feat slots to play with" is a win-win situation, rather than make them enhancements which adds to the total AP cost of both SDs. In that case, you'd have not just feat starvation, but also AP starvation; on the other hand, with feats, you're opening a new fighting style altogether, so you don't need to get THF and a bastard sword/dwarven waraxe on top of the necessary feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp. Critical and Toughness + fighting style feats, IIRC).

    i hope its sarcasm.....
    Oh, certainly it's NOT sarcasm. I'm dead serious. If I were to be sarcastic, I'd add a sarcasm tag on the end.

    i think you forget that this enchancement is for heroic levels, on heroic levels you wont get meaningful bonus out of this new dm, to get this +8 to damage that old dm was giveing you would need to have 42 charisma, its highly unrealistic to get that high on epic levels without gimping yourself, have you looked at the kensai? how much extra damage they get out of all of their enchancements???, seriously kotc paladin getting some low +3+4 to damage, attack and dc aint enoguh to justify it, what about all the builds that use cha to attack and damage? they max out cha in any way possible to get DM that gives them bonus to.......... oh wait... str.... ?, your talking about tactics dc, on paladin its just unreal idea, since paladins never did get any proper enchancements that woudl actualy GIVE any dc boosts, so even with this new dm you never get dc on stunning trip or w/e else high enough to work on levels above 20, to conclude i just mean that new dm is just a MEH thing, why bother comes to mind, where bonus recieved from it is just too low to matter in any way compared to the cost in both ap/tomes to get cha high, dont forget that this so priceless +4 tomes of charisma with this new system mean +1 bonus to damage and dc.... way to go
    Both versions have their share of troubles, but the old DM version was far more difficult to achieve than this one.

    I must admit, I made a miscalculation on the amount of Cha you need to reach the old amount of DM, but you'd have to consider that while a +4 tome only grants at most a +1 to attack, damage and tactics DC, before it was NECESSARY to reach Divine Might IV. The AP cost to get to Divine Might IV was absurd (10 AP for a +8 to damage? Really? REALLY!? *insert Kobold voice*), and the base Charisma requirement was likewise absurd for what was essentially a minor boost to damage. Right now, it's Charisma to three things instead of no Charisma to one, which makes Charisma matter far more than the original (where having enhancements to Charisma didn't matter, because you could never achieve enough AP and base stat to achieve it. Returning to that would be just as absurd as you claim this DM is.

    As for Tactical DC boosters...Divine Might lets you at least approach them. As mentioned, you need 42 points in Charisma to reach a +8 bonus to Strength, which is essentially what Power Surge offers (and for twice the duration, if you spend 6 AP on it), so you're missing...what, +3 to DC from Tactics? +2/+3 DC from the Capstones (based on the amount of Charisma you have)? Unless you spend AP to get BOTH Capstones (not sure if that's possible), 42 Charisma nets you exactly half of that amount, plus the same bonus to attack rolls than Power Surge at twice the duration and an increased number of times per day (it's based off your uses of TU, which rise with Charisma).

    Here's a much more intense insult: you want Charisma to damage? Why Purple Dragon Knights get that essentially for free and Paladins don't? Purple Dragon Knights only need to spend 1 AP to get that, and they get free bonuses to their Tactical DCs to boot. Sure, they start at...what, level 15? But that's a proof of why Divine Might is so meh no matter what: a PDK gets in 2 AP what a Paladin would dream off, no requirements whatsoever (aside from being an Iconic, but what makes an Iconic different from a regular hero? That they cost TP? Meh). Imagine a Paladin with Cormyrian Knight Training AND levels in Paladin. Just 2 levels in Paladin nets you Divine Might, and 12 levels in Fighter nets you Power Surge. Before reaching Epic levels, you get a boost to Tactical DCs unlike anything you've ever seen, and you can focus on Kensai Heavy Blades Weapon Group for even more damage. Just consider that possibility, and tell me how Divine Might would help Knights of the Chalice compete with THAT. That is essentially the main reason why I oppose to changing Divine Might; it's the Power Surge of the Paladin, and with some effort it can reach furthermore. To me, making Divine Might focus only on adding Charisma to damage for 2 minutes is insulting, as it won't really let you approach the damage potential of a Fighter or Barbarian no matter how much you try.

    That doesn't mean Divine Might couldn't be improved, but if it does, it should be aimed towards this new direction rather than reverting to the old direction. Adding Cha modifier to damage AND perhaps half of it to attack and tactical DCs is far, far, FAR better than just adding Cha to damage, when an iconic does this nearly effortlessly. Thinking to revert when there's far better options just doesn't cut this. To me, this version of DM goes in the right direction, as it really DOES prize Charisma. Note what you mentioned on your first post:

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    original version of it rewards buffing up charisma, new one just shows how pointless it is to try
    With the original version, you needed a base Charisma of 20. That could only be gained by increasing your Charisma through point-buy, level-based increases, or tomes. Even then, the cost was just prohibitive. The amount of Charisma you had aside from the base was irrelevant; a +6 Cha item didn't influence this, nor your level-based boosts to Charisma, and the damage it granted was fixed, never based off your Charisma. That wasn't a reward for buffing Charisma; you got rewarded with Divine Grace, because your saves would be unbeatable. This version rewards you getting high Charisma by adding that directly to your Strength, but since it's not a high increase to damage, it's pointless. It doesn't matter that you get better chances to actually land a hit (something that you could only get through smites) or that your Tactical DCs are a bit more meaningful (compared to before, where a Paladin simply couldn't dare to compete); all that it matters is damage. Well, PDKs ruin that for Paladins; no matter what they get, it'll never be better than just spending the TP on a PDK and dipping 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Might for escalated gains. It ruins both pure Pally KotCs and pure Fighter Kenseis, because it blends the both of two worlds and just keeps tacking on MORE. If you want Paladins to be meaningful, you have to make them compete with that and at least get on a range where they can compete, even if the TP cost means PDKs will end up being superior. Cha to damage for 2 minutes really isn't even in the same range of competition, period. That's why I'm so adamant at defending this version of Divine Might; it's creative, it's useful for more that damage, and if it were to be improved, it gives a good measure of what to improve.

    If what you want is a tank that deals good damage, you're thinking of the wrong class IMO. I'd love to say those are my words, but those are words I'm taking from my Fighter-loving friend. I'm a diehard fan of Paladins, and I want them to be more than just Fighter/Clerics (and with Warpriests now entering the list, I'm desperate to see Paladins stand out beyond Warpriest Clerics and Fighters). Focusing merely on "I need my tank to deal more damage" is narrow-minded, which is a shame because you've given good ideas and reached a great compromise on others that does that and MORE.

  8. #8
    Community Member Sidewaysgts86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    No. No. Just...no.

    You don't seem to understand how Divine Might works now. I would say that Divine Might should be shifted to Sacred bonus (and the Defensive Stance bonus to Competence, as per the Fighter version), but remain as is.

    Every 4 points of Charisma mean 2 points of Strength, which means +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls (+1.5 if wielding a 2H weapon), +1 to the DC of all Tactical feats (including Sunder and Trip, which you already get), and directly increase your Strength in case you need to break open doors. It's VERY useful, and all it takes is a resource that you barely use (Turn Undead; it's too weak to matter when compared to a Cleric, useless when you're not fighting undead and the only real threat to it is Divine Righteousness). Perhaps it's too costly for what it offers, but if used correctly, it's great.

    The original version never, EVER, rewarded buffing up Charisma (at least, the one before the enhancement pass). You needed to devote all starting points from the Point Buy, your level-based increases, OR eating Tomes to get DM IV which...only granted a +8 bonus to damage for 1 minute. Compared to that, this version of DM is leagues better. It's creative, and useful all around; reverting it to a mindless damage bonus is meaningless. Note: for a +8 to damage, you need a magical number of 26 Charisma. That's difficult to get for a MAD class (one that depends on Str, Con AND Cha), but you can get a decent 22 easily with 16 Cha and a +6 Cha item. That's about the bare minimum you can justify, and it also adds to your saves. That 22 Cha amounts to +6 Cha modifier, which is effectively a +6 Str increase. All in all, you require only boosting Charisma by 4 to overcome the entirety of the pre-Enh. Pass DM enhancement. Is it really so hard to get 4 points? There's insight bonuses to Charisma, Great Charisma feat, level-based increases, enhancement-based increases, tomes, airship buffs...that's a LOT of increases to Cha. Far more easier to buff than base Charisma, which was the benchmark of old DM.
    As someone who has pretty much been playing paladins as their main, and has numerous chars with paladin PLs, I must say that I strongly. strongly disagree with you here.

    By the way, you may want to recheck your math in your "note" there. 26 charisma? 26 charisma results in a charisma mod of 8 (26-10, divide by 2, 8.). +8 strength is good for a +4 mod to damage. Half of what youre talking about. Not +8. Remember kiddies, its 4 points of charisma for 1 point of base damage now. 4x8=32. Then add the 10 you need to add before you start seeing modifiers in the first place. Whats our total? 42. We need a charisma score of 42, to get the 16 charisma mod bonus required to add a +8 mod to our strength. And this is STILL a nerf in comparison to what we used to have for the 2wf'ing DPS paladins. Whys that? Because we only add half our strength to off hand hits. Factor that in- And you need 54 (54, subtract 10 to get 44, divide by 2 to get 22, 22 strength gives us an 11 strength mod, adding 11 to our main hand, and adding 5 to our off hand, resulting in the 16 we USED to get per main+offhand attack) charisma to get the same damage bonus we were getting prior.

    And this is for what? A few points of attack, which was never an issue before in most situations, and a few dcs- Which lets face it, 95% of paladins out there dont/cant get high enough to matter in a vast majority of end game content anyways.

    Ya, no thanks. Give me back the divine might we had before. Taking divine might used to be a build choice. Do you sacrifice a few points of str at start up to get access to Dm? Did you use a few point from leveling up to get those higher tiers- or hunt down some juicy charisma tomes? It was a tough choice, but a rewarding one. Now? Its a no brainer. Divine might is worthless compared to what it used to be. Do you think any paladin now has to "think twice" about if they want to make some tough build choices at start up and sacrifice to get a high base charisma? Do you think theres really any paladins running around now who have sacrificed a fair bit and are running around with a base charisma of 20? Of course not. You put a few points into it, and dump the rest into strength. Why? Why is this such a no brainier? Because divine might isnt nearly as useful as it used to be.

    But just my 02 cents. I strongly prefer/desire the old DM to what we have now. Id gladly give up the tactical DCs and + to attack (which on the new ac system, is no longer as big as it used to be either) for the damage we used to get.

  9. #9
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    with same gear my cha based drow had almost same str,with 13 base str and 16 cha (with dm ofc)

    than my str based horc, 16 str 14 cha

    and far more saves ofc

    iirc it was 62 for horc 58 for drow(with 42 cha, btw thought it was recquired a higher value, nothing hard to hit, 13 str base for PA at lvl 1 and go), with a difference of...8 in saves or so

    the dps difference was minimal, also dunno why so many complains against DM, now u can get it at lvl 4, it's a really strong weapon, almost insane, but for that u should stop thinking in "str is the only stat"

    also high cha pally = lots of funs in undead quest: can't 1 shot em? don't worry, have ****loads of charges that deal... Xd6 damage AND stun for 1 min, time more than enough to kill em all

    pally is not a fighter, doesn't need to be played like that

    also no to tower shield proficiency

    btw, 3 pally lives only, 14-4-2 drow, 10-8-2 drow, 10-8-2 horc, yes, not a fan of zealot

    also the 14 pally lvls were for the almost 20 holy swords i have in the cache, at 1-2 per life will be enough to finish tring in case i decide taking pally lvls that prolly will since the strength of DM(25th/40 i guess)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  10. #10
    Community Member Sidewaysgts86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    also dunno why so many complains against DM
    Probably has to do with the whole "did more damage" for most people, thing- But dont quote me on that. Im not 100%.

  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    1: free tower shield proficiency with defender PRE, it was asked for, for years!!! paladin is feat starved, we get extra feats over level 25, but compared to how many feats fighter gets its just silly, not ot mention that fighter gets towershield as class feat at lvl 1... i think that giveing a defender a free proficiency would be the right way, since half of other classes gets proficiency in some weapons (example: kukri for assasin) so why this cant be done for pally.
    I so agree with you on this one. They will give you all of these bonuses for having a shield…but somehow a tower shield requires a feat investment. Ummm…OK?

    You want to make S&B popular again? Give a SD a Tower Shield proficiency as a part of the enhancement tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    3: both paladin prestiges should have own smite enchancemetns, for kotc its exalted smite, that is focused on damage, defender could get own smite called righteous smite, it would give extra damage, and stacks of vulnerable to target, same as the warpriest one (i dont see reason why not), also when righteousness is active, righteous smite would do 500% hate. each smite would be 2 ap, one tier only
    I kinda agree. The additional hate generation would be mighty nice to have.

    4. smite charges giveing enchancemetns should be merged and placed as 1 enchancement on each tree, 3 tiers, each tier gives +2 smite charges, and boost crit multiplier/range on corresponding smite (exalted or righteous depending on the pre its taken from), tier 2 would also give a 50% chance for smite charge to be returned on ANY crit attack (it could be 33% too.) tier 3 would add 150% chance on natural 20. meaning that on 20 you get 1 charge back, and have 50% chance to get second one.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    5. defender tier 5 harbored by light, please remove guard effect off it and replace it with heal amp, it would then be worth the 2 ap per tier.
    First of all, if you go Human, you can get 20% healing amp without a huge amount of investment in the racial tree. You can also get 10% healing amp without a huge investment in the KotC tree. So I don’t see this really as an issue.

    Harbored by Light, however, would be better if it worked like incorperal, adding a percentage chance to miss, as opposed to dealing insignificant damage. They could bill it as a “blinding” effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    6. lower the ap cost on armor and shield % ac boost enchancements in tier 4 and 5, it seriously takes too much ap.
    I somewhat dispute that. I was able to invest a lot into most of the SD tree and still have a lot of Aps left over.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    7. merge the +6 str and con, and 20% hp into one tier 5 enchancement, and remove that THING about haveing shield on to have it active, not only its broken, and can potentialy kill paladin on rapid swapping of weapons, but also takes away a lot of hp on the possiblity of grabbing two handed weapon by tank to do bit more dps when tank is not needed. i would rather think that first 3 enchancemetns that give hate gen, saves and prr would be affected by this, since that makes much more sense, idk whats the logic behind takeing away str and con and hp for not wearing the shield, makeing it tier 5 enchancement will mean that paladin has to commit to this prestige to get it.
    I will find an entire Amen Chorus to agree with you getting rid of losing CON when you swap shields. Even if I use the SAME SHIELD with a different weapon, I lose about a quarter of my HP. Wha’s up with that?!? Totally idiotic.

    As for losing STR? I’m on the fence about that one. With the right focus, you can do passable one-hand damage, without the major feat investment it takes to get decent damage for both one-handed and two-handed damage. The old way of tank-on-demand is out, and I have very little doubt it will remain that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    8. this thing could work good for both fighter tank and paladin, idea is to make enchancemetns that UPGRADE defensive fighting toggle feat we get at level one, it could upgrade that feat with some extra effects, like parry or riposte, but what i would love to see in it is an ability to walk around at walk speed with shield block on, oposted to the jumping around or tumbling whne defensive fighting is active, also to make main hand attacks at enemy with +50%/+100% hate generation, at slower attack speed BUT retaining the shield block bonuses. would make that new shield block feat actualy a thing that everyone would want to have on tank.
    I’m on-board with you with the hate generation. I have to sacrifice INT on a pally for just about everything else, which means I lose skill points. In the end, it means I take a hit somewhere in intim. Even when I get 100% hate generation, it still gets lost on epic content almost right away, and I’m having issues with intim capturing bosses at level…even with decent gear. This shouldn’t be happening on something that is focused to be a tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    9. since you took away weapons of good capstone and gave it only for kotc paladins, then please add bless weapon spell, it could make held weapon good aligned.
    +1

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    the reason why i sugested for it to be enchancement is exactly becouse of feat starvation diet on pally, and no NO MORE SHIELD FEATS.... plsease..... it seriosuly getting hard to sqeeze in all the must have stuff, without loseing all of the i want to have things, if there will be more shield feats, then we can just let game autolevel us becosue we wont have any choices at all. again a multichoice enchancement may be the right way to go, to choose what you want your shield bash to do

    i hope its sarcasm.....
    I have to agree with T.G. Oskar on that. More Shield feats would be both useless and irrelevant to the Pally as is. The pally is feat starved. No two ways about it. Now, if they kill the uselss remove disease and give them more feats, we can talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    i think you forget that this enchancement is for heroic levels, on heroic levels you wont get meaningful bonus out of this new dm, to get this +8 to damage that old dm was giveing you would need to have 42 charisma, its highly unrealistic to get that high on epic levels without gimping yourself, have you looked at the kensai? how much extra damage they get out of all of their enchancements???, seriously kotc paladin getting some low +3+4 to damage, attack and dc aint enoguh to justify it, what about all the builds that use cha to attack and damage? they max out cha in any way possible to get DM that gives them bonus to.......... oh wait... str.... ?, your talking about tactics dc, on paladin its just unreal idea, since paladins never did get any proper enchancements that woudl actualy GIVE any dc boosts, so even with this new dm you never get dc on stunning trip or w/e else high enough to work on levels above 20, to conclude i just mean that new dm is just a MEH thing, why bother comes to mind, where bonus recieved from it is just too low to matter in any way compared to the cost in both ap/tomes to get cha high, dont forget that this so priceless +4 tomes of charisma with this new system mean +1 bonus to damage and dc.... way to go
    Before I begin giving out my two cents on this this little remark, let's assume something. An average pally starts with 14 Cha. A +6 Cha item is easy enough to get. +1 from enhancements. +1 exceptional charisma. A +2/+4 tome of Charisma. That nets you right around 24~26 Cha. Assuming a +4 tome for 26 Cha, which is non gimped as you can see, we get a +8 charisma modifier to str. This nets you right around +4 to str modifier which means +4 to atk and damage, 6 if using a two handed weapon. Now i don't know about you, but when I enter an anti magic field/cone or get hit with ray of exhaustion, a +8 to str sounds beautiful as a melee combatant. Now that we are assuming this, let's carry on.

    Being a die hard fighter fan and player, I regretfully inform you that it is my divine right to say this to you:

    If you are so worried about the damage you deal, you are in the wrong class.

    The pally is not... I repeat again... IS NOT a damage dealing class. It's a burst damage dealer with smite. That's its niche and it does it well. Even then, it still does reasonable melee damage without that +8 you so highly want/claim you need. Only the fighter and barbarian, maybe the ranger, are supposed to be able to do large amounts of damage on a near constant basis. Even then, the pally can still match the fighter's pace rather well using Divine Light and Divine Sacrifice. Plus, once you get to higher levels, that +30% from action boost gives you plenty of damage already which means that +8/+4 to damage doesn't really matter in the long run.

    Now, you want to deal more damage? Go Waforged and follow the Lord of Blades. Two handed weapons deal more damage on a near constant basis. Period. Plus, Bladesworn transformation is awesome. Why hit the enemy 5 times to kill it when you can do it 2 or 3 hits? That's not even taking into consideration smite or exalted smite. In that one attack you hit with a bonus to attack and damage plus its easier to crit so the damage is boosted even more. Its about making that one attack mean something. The name of the game is damage overflow my friend, and sadly that's a game that the pally just can't compete with the Fighter or barbarian.

    This also begs the question of how you play your Pally. Do you focus only in doing melee damage? Then the Fighter/Barbarian is better. Do you use your smites often? No? Then go fighter/barbarian. Do you care much about your pally's healing abilities? No? Then go fighter/barbarian. The pally is built to out last the fighter and barbarian while dealing a nice amount of burst damage. You should take that into consideration before saying that the DM sucks or whatever.

    Now, you still want to change it back? Okay... I can allow it on one condition however. Only once you argue that DM adds cha to attack, tactical dc, AC and damage do you, and everyone else who agrees with you, have my permission to whine about how ****** and worthless the new DM is. The pally deserves such an ability and its not unbalanced. Heck, you can divide this among several enhancements that allow one to choose the ones they want, or need, first. Still, that's not enough for me.

    Give the pally an AoE smite ability. It consumes uses of smite evil and deal smite evil damage to enemies in an area, with multiple levels that increase area of effect and reduce the cooldown. Maybe also deal twice smite damage to area. You want more? Remove divine light and turn into an enhancement line for the AoE smite. Something like: Tier 2; +6d6/Tier 3: +12d6/Tier 4: +18d6. All light damage. I don't know about you, but smite damage in an area plus some extra d6's of light damage is a great way to gather hate.

    Now, interestingly enough you are arguing about DM, but what about Lay on hands? They don't regenerate. A non-Iconic WF pally really needs some more healing. They need regenerating LoH. You darn fleshies are always hogging all the good stuff. T_T

    That's my two cents for this little topic. I hope none of you were offended by my blunt comments, but this is the point of view of a dedicated fighter player who values combat and build efficiency.

  13. #13
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_2_D_2 View Post
    Being a die hard fighter fan and player, I regretfully inform you that it is my divine right to say this to you:

    If you are so worried about the damage you deal, you are in the wrong class.

    The pally is not... I repeat again... IS NOT a damage dealing class. It's a burst damage dealer with smite. That's its niche and it does it well. Even then, it still does reasonable melee damage without that +8 you so highly want/claim you need. Only the fighter and barbarian, maybe the ranger, are supposed to be able to do large amounts of damage on a near constant basis. Even then, the pally can still match the fighter's pace rather well using Divine Light and Divine Sacrifice. Plus, once you get to higher levels, that +30% from action boost gives you plenty of damage already which means that +8/+4 to damage doesn't really matter in the long run.
    I think that the big problem is that if I am a S&B SD, my smite damage is literally laughable. Without a full investment with Exaluted Smite, and removing EDs from the equation, you deliver maybe a little over 90 HP of damage, non-crit. I’ve tried abandoning human healing amp for the KotC line with smites, but the investment is fairly steep. Your best bet in this regard is to find a decent high-crit one-hander, and hope it lands the motherloade on a smite.

    It is only “burst damage” in one line, which is a huge problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_2_D_2 View Post
    Now, you want to deal more damage? Go Waforged and follow the Lord of Blades. Two handed weapons deal more damage on a near constant basis. Period. Plus, Bladesworn transformation is awesome. Why hit the enemy 5 times to kill it when you can do it 2 or 3 hits? That's not even taking into consideration smite or exalted smite. In that one attack you hit with a bonus to attack and damage plus its easier to crit so the damage is boosted even more. Its about making that one attack mean something. The name of the game is damage overflow my friend, and sadly that's a game that the pally just can't compete with the Fighter or barbarian.
    My biggest problem with this game is the fact that it is becoming more reliant on niche builds / iconics and splashes to become successful in several areas. It is like the AM / PM dispute that always seems to go on: if you want to be “successful”, you wither go WF AM or fleshy PM. Anything in between is “gimp.”

    I’m not doubting what you say about Bladesworn, but it seems like the “successful” builds in one area or another for a class end up having little to no diversity. Why can’t a S&B SD human pally have even mediocre DPS, even if that requires “burst” abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by R_2_D_2 View Post
    This also begs the question of how you play your Pally. Do you focus only in doing melee damage? Then the Fighter/Barbarian is better. Do you use your smites often? No? Then go fighter/barbarian. Do you care much about your pally's healing abilities? No? Then go fighter/barbarian. The pally is built to out last the fighter and barbarian while dealing a nice amount of burst damage. You should take that into consideration before saying that the DM sucks or whatever.
    You know, I wouldn’t have a problem with that assertion, but the reality is that with pushing a lot of APs into the SD tree, you still run into huge problems with self-healers and mobs that drop displacement. True Seeing gets rid of one, but the other becomes a major problem. You either invest in something like Improved Trip, use a paralyzer (whose DCs, frankly, SUCK after lvl 17), or you have to reply on your DPS. AC is relegated to washing windows, and I’ve gone the uber-PRR route. At level, they still can do a lot of damage over time, and wear you down. So if your burst DPS sucks out of the gate, you’re pretty much hosed.

    And yeah, I’ve tried the THF / SD route. The DPS as so underwhelming that I LR-ed, and went pure S&B. There is just too much of a feat investment required to run the SD tree AND do less-than-laughable DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_2_D_2 View Post
    Give the pally an AoE smite ability. It consumes uses of smite evil and deal smite evil damage to enemies in an area, with multiple levels that increase area of effect and reduce the cooldown. Maybe also deal twice smite damage to area. You want more? Remove divine light and turn into an enhancement line for the AoE smite. Something like: Tier 2; +6d6/Tier 3: +12d6/Tier 4: +18d6. All light damage. I don't know about you, but smite damage in an area plus some extra d6's of light damage is a great way to gather hate.
    I like the idea of an AoE smite with all the goodies attached to it. That would make a S&B build far more palatable. It would also make SD something fairly attractive. I also like the idea of linking it to turns.

    As a SD pally, I’ve got something like 13 turns. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve actually expended those turns below 10. You get that clicky where you get all sorts of boots to AC epic DR, and PRR (Glorious Stand?), but the cooldown is so hysterically long, I use it maybe once or twice a quest. So I’ve got all of these unused turns by the time I’m done.

    And again, if I recall correctly, making the investment into KotC to get DM meant flushing a lot of the defensive goodies down the drain, as well as healing amp. It’d be nice, however, if I could transform those into an AoE smite like you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_2_D_2 View Post
    Now, interestingly enough you are arguing about DM, but what about Lay on hands? They don't regenerate. A non-Iconic WF pally really needs some more healing. They need regenerating LoH. You darn fleshies are always hogging all the good stuff. T_T
    If I remember correctly, if you are a KotC, you do not need to invest a lot into the SD tree to get extra LoH. However, between LoH and your healing spells, that is a LOT of healing. Unless I’m in content where I’m in a group (and the scaling takes effect), I rarely have problems with healing. So, the extra LoH is not much of an issue at all.

  14. #14
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    when i level as a paladin for the PL, i don't waste the AP on DM because i cant get my CHA high enough to matter. if i did, i would be capped and i TR again anyways so it don't matter at that point. it could be a different story if i was actually trying to build and keep playing a paladin, but getting a CHA in the 40's plus having points in str, dex, wis and con is pretty tough to get decent stat numbers having to rely on tomes and gear.

    i leveled as a paladin 3x before the enhancement pass and than again after. i saw a noticeable difference in damage numbers. i now have to rely on ES for my good dps numbers where as before i could deal respectable or better damage numbers without it. it could be how i picked the enhancements but every paladin life i focus as a KOTC and spend most of my AP in that tree. my characters dps was way better pre-enhancement pass than now.

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    Community Member Sidewaysgts86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    when i level as a paladin for the PL, i don't waste the AP on DM because i cant get my CHA high enough to matter. if i did, i would be capped and i TR again anyways so it don't matter at that point. it could be a different story if i was actually trying to build and keep playing a paladin, but getting a CHA in the 40's plus having points in str, dex, wis and con is pretty tough to get decent stat numbers having to rely on tomes and gear.

    i leveled as a paladin 3x before the enhancement pass and than again after. i saw a noticeable difference in damage numbers. i now have to rely on ES for my good dps numbers where as before i could deal respectable or better damage numbers without it. it could be how i picked the enhancements but every paladin life i focus as a KOTC and spend most of my AP in that tree. my characters dps was way better pre-enhancement pass than now.
    Damage should be as good overall now as it was before, if not better. Keep in mind if youre going pure damage, youll easily get 4d6+4 against your chosen mobs, plus 3d6 vs anything evil, plus an addition 2d6 to undead/Eos- just from enhancements. You should also easily have maxed out exalted smite, and divine righteousness (Where before most build couldnt spare the AP to get all the tiers of it, maybe 1 or 2). Plus holy retribution. Plus weve got a damage boost now which is worth up to 30%. With some of the numbers youll be expecting to hit, 30% damage is more than 8 damage.

    And you STILL get divine might- even if its not AS good as it was before. I just dont see the reason NOT to make it as good as it was before in regards to damage. The plus to attack is nil, and the plus to tactical DCs is a joke as well. That damage boost is not game breaking, and far nicer to me than what it does now.

  16. #16
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I think that the big problem is that if I am a S&B SD, my smite damage is literally laughable. Without a full investment with Exaluted Smite, and removing EDs from the equation, you deliver maybe a little over 90 HP of damage, non-crit. I’ve tried abandoning human healing amp for the KotC line with smites, but the investment is fairly steep. Your best bet in this regard is to find a decent high-crit one-hander, and hope it lands the motherloade on a smite.

    It is only “burst damage” in one line, which is a huge problem.
    exactly right, smites run out too fast and they do too little to be considered a main DPS on DS pally, so thats the reason why i asked for adding the on crit/20 giveing smites back, it would make smites into something that is actualy usefull and not a thing that you fire and forget, till you get 1 after 2 min or so of waiting. pally destiny is pretty bad about that too, all defense no offense, all offense things in it are unlocks for other classes who MIGHT want to show a middle finger by haveing the watered down smite or layon........ it was laughable idea from turbine none the less.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    My biggest problem with this game is the fact that it is becoming more reliant on niche builds / iconics and splashes to become successful in several areas. It is like the AM / PM dispute that always seems to go on: if you want to be “successful”, you wither go WF AM or fleshy PM. Anything in between is “gimp.”

    I’m not doubting what you say about Bladesworn, but it seems like the “successful” builds in one area or another for a class end up having little to no diversity. Why can’t a S&B SD human pally have even mediocre DPS, even if that requires “burst” abilities?
    again i have to agree, what happened with freedom of building your char as you want it, you want heal amp make human.... seriously? what about all dwarf/elf/helf/orc and even halfling pallies? in my opinion new enchancement system misses one more tree, class tree that would have all things that are considred class instead of pre abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You know, I wouldn’t have a problem with that assertion, but the reality is that with pushing a lot of APs into the SD tree, you still run into huge problems with self-healers and mobs that drop displacement. True Seeing gets rid of one, but the other becomes a major problem. You either invest in something like Improved Trip, use a paralyzer (whose DCs, frankly, SUCK after lvl 17), or you have to reply on your DPS. AC is relegated to washing windows, and I’ve gone the uber-PRR route. At level, they still can do a lot of damage over time, and wear you down. So if your burst DPS sucks out of the gate, you’re pretty much hosed.

    And yeah, I’ve tried the THF / SD route. The DPS as so underwhelming that I LR-ed, and went pure S&B. There is just too much of a feat investment required to run the SD tree AND do less-than-laughable DPS.
    yea so i think that turbine forgets this game is an mmo and not pnp, they unbalanced this game so hard in recent few expansions and updates, everything above level 20 is MO HP/SAVES/ etc. so if they make stuff have much more hp and leaveing some classes so far behind after barbies and other high damage dealers is just like saying...... play only what we want you to play.... curretly i see it like this, if we use common fighter as 100% then barbie does 200% and regular pally is somewhere around 50%, i understand that part of a class system is diversity but come on, in game that is all about dps makeing such a large diffrence in damage is class killer, why there is even a kill counter if its logical that biggest kill count will be either barbarian, arcane caster who wails and fod everytihng in its wake or rogue assasin.......... pally, not only kotc but ds too should be brought closer dps wise to common values. and no i dont care about kills, i care about feeling usefull in fight and not beating down one enemy for minutes when everyone else can drop same one in seconds.....


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I like the idea of an AoE smite with all the goodies attached to it. That would make a S&B build far more palatable. It would also make SD something fairly attractive. I also like the idea of linking it to turns.

    As a SD pally, I’ve got something like 13 turns. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve actually expended those turns below 10. You get that clicky where you get all sorts of boots to AC epic DR, and PRR (Glorious Stand?), but the cooldown is so hysterically long, I use it maybe once or twice a quest. So I’ve got all of these unused turns by the time I’m done.

    And again, if I recall correctly, making the investment into KotC to get DM meant flushing a lot of the defensive goodies down the drain, as well as healing amp. It’d be nice, however, if I could transform those into an AoE smite like you mentioned.
    no i dont think that makeing smites use turns is good idea, smites have their own count and its good, but we should have a way to get them back much faster, so MAYBE there should be a clickie skill that "converts" turns into smites, for example you expend 1 turn for 1d4 smites.

    i always thought that pally misses some more diffrent possibilities to use turns for something useful, so maybe we could get some buffs that are added to aura that are based of turns, if paladin got a usefull buffs in their aura, it would be not only worth while for party to keep close enough to recieve them, i very much like the new rally, and i think that there should be more buffs on pally of that sort.
    "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."
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  17. #17
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    yes i play a tank.
    no i dont want to buff my build, i want things back i had before new enchacnemetns hit the fan, and i want for turbine to be creative about paladin enchancemetns the same way as they did with bard, rogue, and all otehr classes that got lot of changes for the better, all classes got improvements and pally and tanks overall got .....

    and about tanks? whats so wrong about them haveing actual dps, where ddo becomes more and more dps game, seriously...... its not about buffing pally or tanks, its about balancing those classes and playtypes against all other classes doing thousands of damage per hit, how do oyu supposed to hold aggro against that huh?
    Huh...my pally S&B tank got a LOT better with the enhancement pass. You have to not restrict yourself to being pure and only taking enhancements from the Defender tree, though. I can see a lot of people wanting to do this, but it's not optimal.

    The number one thing I want to see improved in paladin enhancements is that stupid bug where you temporarily lose hit points when you change weapons. I haven't even see a developer acknowledge this bug yet or see it get fixed yet, but it's super easy to duplicate (and I did submit a bug report some time ago).
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
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  18. #18
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Huh...my pally S&B tank got a LOT better with the enhancement pass. You have to not restrict yourself to being pure and only taking enhancements from the Defender tree, though. I can see a lot of people wanting to do this, but it's not optimal.

    The number one thing I want to see improved in paladin enhancements is that stupid bug where you temporarily lose hit points when you change weapons. I haven't even see a developer acknowledge this bug yet or see it get fixed yet, but it's super easy to duplicate (and I did submit a bug report some time ago).
    you say i cant restrict myself, in older times paladin was never allowed to splash and retain his powers, i dont like to splash that class, and i know im not alone with that, this is exactly the reason for this thread, this new enchancement system is made in such way that its working best for splashes and completely not giveing damn about pure classes.

    its one of those advices, like play human if you want heal amp, use bastard swords becouse there is nightmare, whats the point in in haveing any choice in this game if the only choice is either do what everyone else does or be left behind. new enchancement system is good for most classes, but its worst design when you look at paladin enchancements, if you look at bard enchancements for example, you are in NO WAY forced to take whole pre before moveing to other, in both pally and fighter defender pres to be still considered a tank you need to take nearly whole tree, MOST of those things were a part of a stance in old system, if you have to take all that stuff, then why its separated?, to allow all splashes and kotc to take whats good from it not careing about the rest, as it was mentioned before its way easier to get what you need from defender as kotc, than getting smites from kotc as defender......

    there is still a thing about those enchancements that they look and feel like they were done without any general idea what they should look like, tree is populated by force, capstone that is so defended by some, is completely done without any plan in it, its a thing that you gain at level 20 so it SHOULD be a thing that is WAY closer to destinies than a thing that requires you to be hit by multiple papercuts for it to save you. that thing should not be a capstone but something you get below level 20 as enchancement that you can safely ignore on your way up the pre tree.

    btw you say your pally got better, mine gained 7 ac compared to old enchancements, and lost much much more than that in all other areas, i tried to balance it out but it always ends in same way, not enough points to get back stuff that was before in same build, so where is that progress huh?
    "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    its one of those advices, like play human if you want heal amp, use bastard swords becouse there is nightmare, whats the point in in haveing any choice in this game if the only choice is either do what everyone else does or be left behind. new enchancement system is good for most classes, but its worst design when you look at paladin enchancements, if you look at bard enchancements for example, you are in NO WAY forced to take whole pre before moveing to other, in both pally and fighter defender pres to be still considered a tank you need to take nearly whole tree, MOST of those things were a part of a stance in old system, if you have to take all that stuff, then why its separated?, to allow all splashes and kotc to take whats good from it not careing about the rest, as it was mentioned before its way easier to get what you need from defender as kotc, than getting smites from kotc as defender......
    I notice you mention this a lot. Ever heard about the Ivory Tower?

    If my memory is correct, Monte Cook pretty much admit once that he designed some "traps" that could seem useful at first, but eventually they proved to be weak as levels progressed. He mentioned (though I'm not sure if directly or indirectly) that optimizers would eventually achieve a level of system mastery that would allow them to sift through the trap options and allow them to make strong builds, as M:tG players would sift through the bad cards to make strong decks. Likewise, in DDO (and this is from before this Enhancement pass), you have to sift through the bad options (Item Defense, the skill feats aside from Skill Focus: UMD) to get to the good stuff (DC boosters, mondo spellpower, loads of damage per attack), so most builds end up being somewhat cookie-cutters. Add to that the advice of people who've played the endgame constantly, and you'll notice some things are essential: note that you protest that "you need to be human to get Healing Amp" but not that ALL MELEE CHARACTERS need several feats to stay competitive (PA, Imp. Crit with your usual weaponry, Cleave + Great Cleave because of Overwhelming Critical), which is something that, simply put, you can't work without. Of all classes, only Fighters and to an extent Rangers and Monks can keep taking options afterwards; Barbs and Paladins lack feats to get other options, but most Barbs go towards THF (it's easier to build towards THF than to TWF, because of the boosts to damage from wielding a 2-handed weapon + the doubled damage from PA). It's possible to build a Barb going TWF, but it's efficiency won't be the best, as TWF is geared towards applying as many equal boosts to damage on both attacks to compensate for the losses of not going THF, and then some (hence, why it's somewhat more effective on Rogues, barring Fortified enemies; SA damage applies equally to both, and climbs faster than PA damage).

    This is part of the 3.5 design paradigm, from which this game is based. You can't entirely blame the developers on that. The devs simply added MORE content, and bloated the trap/non-trap options furthermore, so you still need a degree of system mastery to make ends meet. It's also a bit of what made 4e so polar (and IMO, bland); by attempting to "balance" out all classes, they ended up placing a real hard boundary that killed horizontal optimization. Imbalance is necessary in ANY game, in order to allow optimization to flow; it just has to be balanced between horizontal and vertical optimization so that you get multiple good options instead of a single good one. To do so, you can't simply focus on one class, because that's merely patching one problem: if you grant all that stuff to Paladins, then how about tank Fighters?

    there is still a thing about those enchancements that they look and feel like they were done without any general idea what they should look like, tree is populated by force, capstone that is so defended by some, is completely done without any plan in it, its a thing that you gain at level 20 so it SHOULD be a thing that is WAY closer to destinies than a thing that requires you to be hit by multiple papercuts for it to save you. that thing should not be a capstone but something you get below level 20 as enchancement that you can safely ignore on your way up the pre tree.
    That's because they don't want Capstones to threaten the power of EDs.

    IMO, the Paladin's Sacred Defender capstone should be a permanent Magic Circle against Evil + the Mantle of Invulnerability they grant on bosses, potentially as part of a Toggle, or with certain enablers (you can cast your Paladin spells to yourself without them expiring, and allow allies to cast spells of 4th level or lower). No Epic Destiny whatsoever grants Mantle of Invulnerability, and yet, the benefit is something that's perfectly justifiable through tabletop (it's essentially the Protective Aura all Archons and Angels get, and they're meant to be the exemplars of Lawful Good and Neutral Good respectively, so it makes perfect sense that near-epic Paladins get that as well, particularly when these outsiders get that before 20th level in most cases), so it sets you up for Epic Destinies pretty nicely. But this isn't exactly a Paladin problem; it's a generalized Enhancement Tree problem, where the devs tried to remain on the lower boundary of power and play it safe instead of going towards the higher boundary and blow it up; sadly, most of the time, we see nerfs rather than boosts.

    The expanded rate of unconsciousness, though? Make it a class feature. I know even Knights of the Chalice would like that. Heck, make Pallies get Healing Amp as a class feature; it makes little sense that they get said power as Past Life feats, when they don't have that as part of their actual class features...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    I notice you mention this a lot. Ever heard about the Ivory Tower?

    If my memory is correct, Monte Cook pretty much admit once that he designed some "traps" that could seem useful at first, but eventually they proved to be weak as levels progressed. He mentioned (though I'm not sure if directly or indirectly) that optimizers would eventually achieve a level of system mastery that would allow them to sift through the trap options and allow them to make strong builds, as M:tG players would sift through the bad cards to make strong decks. Likewise, in DDO (and this is from before this Enhancement pass), you have to sift through the bad options (Item Defense, the skill feats aside from Skill Focus: UMD) to get to the good stuff (DC boosters, mondo spellpower, loads of damage per attack), so most builds end up being somewhat cookie-cutters. Add to that the advice of people who've played the endgame constantly, and you'll notice some things are essential: note that you protest that "you need to be human to get Healing Amp" but not that ALL MELEE CHARACTERS need several feats to stay competitive (PA, Imp. Crit with your usual weaponry, Cleave + Great Cleave because of Overwhelming Critical), which is something that, simply put, you can't work without. Of all classes, only Fighters and to an extent Rangers and Monks can keep taking options afterwards; Barbs and Paladins lack feats to get other options, but most Barbs go towards THF (it's easier to build towards THF than to TWF, because of the boosts to damage from wielding a 2-handed weapon + the doubled damage from PA). It's possible to build a Barb going TWF, but it's efficiency won't be the best, as TWF is geared towards applying as many equal boosts to damage on both attacks to compensate for the losses of not going THF, and then some (hence, why it's somewhat more effective on Rogues, barring Fortified enemies; SA damage applies equally to both, and climbs faster than PA damage).

    This is part of the 3.5 design paradigm, from which this game is based. You can't entirely blame the developers on that. The devs simply added MORE content, and bloated the trap/non-trap options furthermore, so you still need a degree of system mastery to make ends meet. It's also a bit of what made 4e so polar (and IMO, bland); by attempting to "balance" out all classes, they ended up placing a real hard boundary that killed horizontal optimization. Imbalance is necessary in ANY game, in order to allow optimization to flow; it just has to be balanced between horizontal and vertical optimization so that you get multiple good options instead of a single good one. To do so, you can't simply focus on one class, because that's merely patching one problem: if you grant all that stuff to Paladins, then how about tank Fighters?
    i understand that the inbalance is meant to exist, and its not what i meant by balancing the game, i dont mean for the game to be equal from each class perspective, i mean to lower the GAPS between classes, becouse the more gap is visible between classes, the less class i usefull in the game where everything rolls around dps..... easiest way to see i would be to drop all enchancements, and play chars just with stats+feats+gear, and then you see what i mean, all of sudden STR matters for dps, now you add the enchancements and you have situation where some classes get super powerfull,while other struggle with dropping one enemy. i only mean for this gap to be lower.

    and about the paladin in all that? i mean that this class to have some unique role to play out in game, look at it from this pov, pally has that aura, that gives bonuses to ac and saves, but noone actualy cares about it anymore, noone will actualy wait for pally to be near to get those bonuses, so what if there were NEW things in enchancements that you can add to your aura, similar as monks can add some extra things to their healing finisher, and do similar thing to smites, instead of bloating the enchancements in the way they are now in pally add something new to it, to define its role, similar as done with all 3 rogue PRE, whee each one is based around some idea for the prestige.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    That's because they don't want Capstones to threaten the power of EDs.

    IMO, the Paladin's Sacred Defender capstone should be a permanent Magic Circle against Evil + the Mantle of Invulnerability they grant on bosses, potentially as part of a Toggle, or with certain enablers (you can cast your Paladin spells to yourself without them expiring, and allow allies to cast spells of 4th level or lower). No Epic Destiny whatsoever grants Mantle of Invulnerability, and yet, the benefit is something that's perfectly justifiable through tabletop (it's essentially the Protective Aura all Archons and Angels get, and they're meant to be the exemplars of Lawful Good and Neutral Good respectively, so it makes perfect sense that near-epic Paladins get that as well, particularly when these outsiders get that before 20th level in most cases), so it sets you up for Epic Destinies pretty nicely. But this isn't exactly a Paladin problem; it's a generalized Enhancement Tree problem, where the devs tried to remain on the lower boundary of power and play it safe instead of going towards the higher boundary and blow it up; sadly, most of the time, we see nerfs rather than boosts.
    i will aggree to that, there are better things to be in that capstone for certain, the only thing i have to say is "what power of EDs", im talking from tanks perspective, so if you look from that way at it you will see that there is only one destiny for that kind of gameplay, there is no power in that destiny just more of survivability again, i would not say anything, if that destiny was giveing out things that are not in the prestiges, but it does not instead it focuses on giveing paladin main powers to anyone and everyone who would want to have them, not to mention that they dont work for anyone without paladin levels but thats another story. i was realy surprised that sentinel does not give cha to saves too, becosue it gave out everything else. so yea its not only prestiges but destiny too that say something is wrong with the way devs think of that class. if they have any idea for that class i dont see it. thats why i made this thread to GIVE some ideas what could be done, and i hope it got noticed and made some minds wrap around that problem and do something with it.........

    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    The expanded rate of unconsciousness, though? Make it a class feature. I know even Knights of the Chalice would like that. Heck, make Pallies get Healing Amp as a class feature; it makes little sense that they get said power as Past Life feats, when they don't have that as part of their actual class features...
    it could work, problem is that again every pally in game would need to be lred if that would happen, if they done things like that WITH expansion, it would go through painless, now its wasted oportunity, so i think that only chance there is for anything happening for any class is the enchancements.
    "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."
    — Groucho Marx

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