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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    I hate to say this, but the new(er) guy is more right.

    DDO has been stale for a long time. However the insistence on curving the complexity to be more advantageous to run solo has been a catastrophic failure.

    Accessibility was introduced to lure the MeNow Gen. Not going to work, DDO is waaay to complex for them.

    All the EasyButton has accomplished in my opinion has blunted the complexity and depth and negated the need to run with others, killing the camaraderie that was the strength of the playerbase. The final blow was the change of this very website.

    Even me, who helps run one of the largest casual guilds in DDO, who has been able to adapt to just about anything that Turbine throws our way, sees the error in Turbine's recent direction.

    The killing off of the "raid night" is a horrible concept. Challenge must exist. There needs to be an end game that offers challenge. Most important - there needs to be reasons to group up and find others. This game is about Dungeons and Dragons, not Farmville. Dont make it simple, stupid.
    The issue in my honest opinion is not solobility. It's the instant gratification. There are so many devices right now that provide a much quicker rout to getting what you want then before and with no real reason to cap and go on playing like it was back when 20 was the cap, it's hard to find a good middle ground.

    Soloing didn't destroy this game. I did it back when we still had to grind for stuff (during the abhorrent first epic system when everything was CC and DPS against all immunity high HP critters). What changes was that instead of finding a middle ground between grinding for items with silly random criteria (like finding THAT epic shard or seal) we instead got the trad-able named EN, EH and EE without needing to actually run anything.

    And perhaps the worst part was to release a lackluster xpack that completely destroyed the value of named items. EGH was a good thing. It added some additional life to the game and was swiftly destroyed by Shadowfell.

    Worst of all? Why even run Shadowfell? I mean other then for favor and some XP? The named items are terrible, random items OP and there's nothing else to grind for. MOTU had at least a destiny grind (terrible as it is) and a raid item grind. Even a upgrade system of getting comms, enough favor and unlocking set bonuses.

    The current xpack has nothing.

    MMOs need hamster wheels. But hamster wheels with nice pictures of open landscapes in front of them. To fool us into believing that we're not actually in a hamster wheel. Kind of like Greensteel mat and item grinding. We always saw a forward goal. We always got something out of it, a milestone towards our goals.

    We need a better idea of milestones again where we always get incremental steps towards something and when we get there we also have something we need that stuff for.

    Back when we hit 20 it was almost a gold standard to need greensteel to get ToD rings and these to better deal with Epic items. The slow grind of Epic items help us master Epic quests.

    But ever since MOTU and beyond we have always had an almost instant gratification to overcome every single obstacle and now it's almost pointless to even try to get better stuff since it will have an marginal impact on our ability to group smack anything we face.

    What I think we need is to stop increasing the level cap. To have something (a long term goal with incremental steps towards) to grind for while creating a system that challenges us.
    There's plenty of content in DDO right now for people who want to hit things at whatever slow pace they like and plenty of ways to get instantly gratified with power items.
    But there's virtually no way for true challenge or even longterm goals.

  2. #62
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    On the subject of end game - in what is essentially a 100% PvE game, there is no sustainable end game. If you want unlimited challenge you need to play a game with PvP raids.
    I'm sorry but no. That is not what Dungeons and Dragons was designed for. If you want PvP raids then play a different MMO. It has no place here.

  3. #63
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    I think Turbine's approach to raiding and epics lately is more understandable if you approach it from the view of a dev team looking to 30. Why establish an endgame at 25 or 28 when those are shortly (in game dev measurements) going to be nothing more than pit stops on the way to 30 and the "new" end game? It's a waste of resources.
    I really wish all the crying EE endgamers would read this about 20 times

    There is no endgame right now BY DESIGN. If u cant wait for the new endgame, go do something else. If u can, why not spend your time productively and talk about what you'd like to see at 30, instead of whining they didnt make u an endgame at 28

    The new endgame might be a complete failure, but i wont know until its here. And most of us have plenty to do while we're waiting.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I am not so sure solo'ers are the minority anymore.

    I don't mind grouping, but I quit playing the first time when they started shoving guilds down our throats and solo'ing anything past level 10 was frustrating for a non-uber past life geared veteran. [...]
    I don't mind soloing or grouping... but they have made soloing TOO MUCH and TOO EASY, while it is harder to group. It is less of a D&D game any more, and more like WoW (which I hate) and GW2: which I don't like that it only has 8 buttons.

    On the subject of end game - in what is essentially a 100% PvE game, there is no sustainable end game. If you want unlimited challenge you need to play a game with PvP raids.
    If you like PvP, I suggest GW2, its good there or Eve.

    How can you balance the game around PvP when someone can fury adrenaline multi-shot you for more than 5000 damage when you only have around 600 to 1500 hp with no way to defend around it?

    Similarly, casters can hit you with Ruin and that has no save either for 2000 to 5000 untyped damage. (on a critical).

    The game is not balanced around PvP.

    With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

  5. #65
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Creating high quality raids with replay value on the scale of Shroud and Hound - would be really helpful right now to guilds and pugs that enjoy working together for a common goal, as well as a chance for new loots and shinies.

    "End game" is relative, it always has been. DDO always had a narrow definition of end game. Me personally, I dont care. I want the journey to be as good as the end game, and for me it always has been. Hence why I'm an altoholic, that has helped provide for many more altoholics along the way

    NOBODY has better grouping tools than DDO. Its DDO's niche, team-play that is, and I believe Turbine must continue to develop with this in mind, to stay relevant.
    I would argue that DDO has a very diverse end game, in that there are many players spread out evenly among the levels, and at any point any one of them could be considered to be at their "end game".

    New raids would be really helpful to powergaming guilds and PUGs. A metric which is what, 10% of DDO's population? AKA the infamous vocal minority? There are players new to the game, learning how to flag for Shroud, learning how to get to Hound, learning the mechanics of Reaver's for the first time. These things are happening all around us. Not everyone has 1 of every named item. Not everyone has 100+ completions of every raid in game. And not everyone is bored of soloing EEs. The rest of the population is still grouping, and creating new communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07
    Well thought out and reasonable comments like this are not acceptable on the DDO forums.

    Please edit your comments immediately and add at least one of the following:

    - Flaming devs
    - Flaming Community Reps
    - Flaming <insert community segment here>
    - DooOoooooOOoooOmMMMmMMMMMMMM!!!111!!!!!!1111!!!
    - Demands for a refund

    Thank you and have a good day.
    errr... ummmm... I demand a new raid every week with weapons better than three eSoS tied together, or I want a refund!
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  6. #66
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post

    errr... ummmm... I demand a new raid every week with weapons better than three eSoS tied together, or I want a refund!

    There you go!
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  7. #67
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    If you have twenty characters characters at lvl 28, then I guess playing less is the healthy thing to do.

  8. #68
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    I stumbled into the Underdark today to get the portals on my latest TR and ended up spending over an hour down there just slaying and enjoying the atmosphere.
    Me too! What made it fun was that I DIDN'T have an xp pot running, so I felt free to waste time just exploring a bit... It's one area I don't really know that well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  9. #69
    DDO Senior Producer Glin's Avatar
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    Arrow sooner

    [This thread seems to have gone off topic a bit so I am going to back up.]
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Hey, we've just upgraded from "in the next week (Soon TM)" to "very soon"!
    I expect to post this week. A few specifics were in flux as to whether or not we can get it done, so I have redrafted a few times so far.
    For those on the fence about where to take their character today, I will say not much about the Epic Reincarnation has changed since my previous post. If you are playing an Iconic or plan to in a next life, then yes I'll have details on that.
    We will get the facts posted and try to address questions. I apologize its taken longer then intended.
    ---------------
    follow me on Twitter @producerglin

  10. #70
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    The issue in my honest opinion is not solobility. It's the instant gratification. There are so many devices right now that provide a much quicker rout to getting what you want then before and with no real reason to cap and go on playing like it was back when 20 was the cap, it's hard to find a good middle ground.

    Soloing didn't destroy this game. I did it back when we still had to grind for stuff (during the abhorrent first epic system when everything was CC and DPS against all immunity high HP critters). What changes was that instead of finding a middle ground between grinding for items with silly random criteria (like finding THAT epic shard or seal) we instead got the trad-able named EN, EH and EE without needing to actually run anything.

    And perhaps the worst part was to release a lackluster xpack that completely destroyed the value of named items. EGH was a good thing. It added some additional life to the game and was swiftly destroyed by Shadowfell.

    Worst of all? Why even run Shadowfell? I mean other then for favor and some XP? The named items are terrible, random items OP and there's nothing else to grind for. MOTU had at least a destiny grind (terrible as it is) and a raid item grind. Even a upgrade system of getting comms, enough favor and unlocking set bonuses.

    The current xpack has nothing.

    MMOs need hamster wheels. But hamster wheels with nice pictures of open landscapes in front of them. To fool us into believing that we're not actually in a hamster wheel. Kind of like Greensteel mat and item grinding. We always saw a forward goal. We always got something out of it, a milestone towards our goals.

    We need a better idea of milestones again where we always get incremental steps towards something and when we get there we also have something we need that stuff for.

    Back when we hit 20 it was almost a gold standard to need greensteel to get ToD rings and these to better deal with Epic items. The slow grind of Epic items help us master Epic quests.

    But ever since MOTU and beyond we have always had an almost instant gratification to overcome every single obstacle and now it's almost pointless to even try to get better stuff since it will have an marginal impact on our ability to group smack anything we face.

    What I think we need is to stop increasing the level cap. To have something (a long term goal with incremental steps towards) to grind for while creating a system that challenges us.
    There's plenty of content in DDO right now for people who want to hit things at whatever slow pace they like and plenty of ways to get instantly gratified with power items.
    But there's virtually no way for true challenge or even longterm goals.
    Excellent post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    [This thread seems to have gone off topic a bit so I am going to back up.]


    I expect to post this week. A few specifics were in flux as to whether or not we can get it done, so I have redrafted a few times so far.
    For those on the fence about where to take their character today, I will say not much about the Epic Reincarnation has changed since my previous post. If you are playing an Iconic or plan to in a next life, then yes I'll have details on that.
    We will get the facts posted and try to address questions. I apologize its taken longer then intended.
    Thanks for the post.

    Take your time, get it right.

    Reincarnation has waited a long time for a revamp/balance/recode and will wait another very long time for the nextvamp.

  12. #72
    Community Member TPICKRELL's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    [This thread seems to have gone off topic a bit so I am going to back up.]


    I expect to post this week. A few specifics were in flux as to whether or not we can get it done, so I have redrafted a few times so far.
    For those on the fence about where to take their character today, I will say not much about the Epic Reincarnation has changed since my previous post. If you are playing an Iconic or plan to in a next life, then yes I'll have details on that.
    We will get the facts posted and try to address questions. I apologize its taken longer then intended.
    Thank you for the reply. A time frame helps a lot.

    The details on Epic TR are not detailed enough to plan yet. We don't have any idea on the benefits of an epic or iconic past life. If the benefits are solid we may want to plan a number of back to back epic tr's. If the benefits are marginal we may want to ignore epic trs. If they are in between, we may want to schedule Epic and Heroic TR's in conjunction or ignore the whole system.

    I'm working on faith so far that the an EPIC TR or two will be beneficial enough that I'll want to do that. For my main and primary alts, thats a reasonable assumption, but as I work down the list towards less used alts, I need more details to make that call.

    I don't mind spending time prepping for the EPIC TR system, I just want to be confident that I'm not wasting time. I know that this is just a game and any time I spend is in some eyes a waste. But, I want to be working towards a goal that in the end will give me some sense of satisfaction, not a feeling that I wasted my game time for a considerable period of time.

    Anyway, again, thanks for the reply, knowing the general time frame helps.
    Khyber -- Grubbby, Grubonon, Gralak, and all the gang of *grubs* in the Homeboys of Stormreach.

  13. #73
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    If you like PvP, I suggest GW2, its good there or Eve.
    I don't, that's why I quit other games and came back to DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    How can you balance the game around PvP when someone can fury adrenaline multi-shot you for more than 5000 damage when you only have around 600 to 1500 hp with no way to defend around it?

    Similarly, casters can hit you with Ruin and that has no save either for 2000 to 5000 untyped damage. (on a critical).

    The game is not balanced around PvP.
    I never said it was, nor did I state that I wanted it to. It was an observation.

    I understand why you replied the way you did, so let me clarify it was an observation, not a desire.

    The only way to sustain an endgame indefinately is to let players battle over a city or fort or some other object and winner gets bragging rights, maybe some power/advantage, that they can keep until someone else takes it from them. PvP raids if you will.

    There is no way to sustain an end game in PvE because eventually you beat the environment. Then all you can do is repeat the victory over and over. When a hundred players, or 500 players all do this there is no bragging rights, no one can say they did it better, you have 500 winners with nothing else to do once they get bored doing the same thing over and over. You can keep raising the cap, but you and I know the developers cannot keep up with the end-gamers. End-gamers reach cap and get all the new shineys months before the next level cap and shineys come out, so we have about 1-2 months of YEAH NEW STUFF followed by 10 months of complaining about all the new bugs and no end game.

  14. #74
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Since we're OT anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    The only way to sustain an endgame indefinately is to let players battle over a city or fort or some other object and winner gets bragging rights, maybe some power/advantage, that they can keep until someone else takes it from them. PvP raids if you will.
    Here's an example of my vision/desire for a DDO PvP experience: Competative Questing

    You have two (6 man) groups (A&B) that start in a common staging area. During a count down timer (say 2 min) you do your buffing & start the trash talking. Two doors open simultaneously, one on the left & one on the right; and each group starts through their own door. There is a common goal towards which they're racing. Along the way, each group will have similar obstacles, mobs and bosses to deal with. Additionally, you have a variety of mechanisms (levers, valves, etc) that could activate traps (perhaps disableable), move walls ala the Crucible maze, or open secret doors to release additional mobs - all effecting the opposing/competing group. Could also use mechanics similar to Inferno, where killing a mob on side A spawns a mob on side B. Which ever group gets to the "end fight" first can pull lever that closes an unopenable door locking out the opposing group. Should the first group to reach the "end" wipe, the door opens allowing the second group in for chance at the "win."

    No need to balance against players adrenaline fueled multi-fury shotting, as the players never actually combat eachother; they do however compete. Thoughts?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    Just for a counter point, i might be in the minority, but i actually joined DDO because it is easier to solo now. I've been eyeing DDO for a while but the must group thing always turned me off. I actually was looking for another D&D computer game, not another MMO.
    Once i found out they made it solo friendly i tried it again and enjoyed DDO. If they would try to force me to group again i just would play something else.
    Mind you that's just for requiring grouping, i'm all for quests where the challenge does not only come from Quadrupling the amount of mobs and their hp per difficulty level.
    I'm with ya. We have some in our own guild that prefer to solo or duo. It was never a requirement in DDO to group. However, the multiple difficulty settings are excellent for this concern. As long as their is a group challenge on one or more levels that's all I was suggesting is vital.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-08-2013 at 12:33 AM.


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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    The issue in my honest opinion is not solobility. It's the instant gratification. There are so many devices right now that provide a much quicker rout to getting what you want then before and with no real reason to cap and go on playing like it was back when 20 was the cap, it's hard to find a good middle ground.

    Soloing didn't destroy this game. I did it back when we still had to grind for stuff (during the abhorrent first epic system when everything was CC and DPS against all immunity high HP critters). What changes was that instead of finding a middle ground between grinding for items with silly random criteria (like finding THAT epic shard or seal) we instead got the trad-able named EN, EH and EE without needing to actually run anything.

    And perhaps the worst part was to release a lackluster xpack that completely destroyed the value of named items. EGH was a good thing. It added some additional life to the game and was swiftly destroyed by Shadowfell.

    Worst of all? Why even run Shadowfell? I mean other then for favor and some XP? The named items are terrible, random items OP and there's nothing else to grind for. MOTU had at least a destiny grind (terrible as it is) and a raid item grind. Even a upgrade system of getting comms, enough favor and unlocking set bonuses.

    The current xpack has nothing.

    MMOs need hamster wheels. But hamster wheels with nice pictures of open landscapes in front of them. To fool us into believing that we're not actually in a hamster wheel. Kind of like Greensteel mat and item grinding. We always saw a forward goal. We always got something out of it, a milestone towards our goals.

    We need a better idea of milestones again where we always get incremental steps towards something and when we get there we also have something we need that stuff for.

    Back when we hit 20 it was almost a gold standard to need greensteel to get ToD rings and these to better deal with Epic items. The slow grind of Epic items help us master Epic quests.

    But ever since MOTU and beyond we have always had an almost instant gratification to overcome every single obstacle and now it's almost pointless to even try to get better stuff since it will have an marginal impact on our ability to group smack anything we face.

    What I think we need is to stop increasing the level cap. To have something (a long term goal with incremental steps towards) to grind for while creating a system that challenges us.
    There's plenty of content in DDO right now for people who want to hit things at whatever slow pace they like and plenty of ways to get instantly gratified with power items.
    But there's virtually no way for true challenge or even longterm goals.
    +1 I agree fully with this. Will fall on deaf ears sadly at this point, unless Glin feels the same way we do on it and can convince the even-larger powers-that-be
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-08-2013 at 12:32 AM.


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  17. #77
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    I would argue that DDO has a very diverse end game . . .
    And you'd be wrong.

  18. #78
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Me too! What made it fun was that I DIDN'T have an xp pot running, so I felt free to waste time just exploring a bit... It's one area I don't really know that well.
    I did this as well, the second day MoTU came out.

    OVER A YEAR AGO.

  19. #79
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Thoughts?
    Yeah definately something like that would be cool. Make it up to a 12 person team for even more fun. I could see this being guild-based with "free-lance" players too.

    Still, the one thing missing is the trophy, the "king of the hill" reward that you keep until someone better, stronger, and smarter comes along to take it away from you.

  20. #80
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    The issue in my honest opinion is not solobility. It's the instant gratification. There are so many devices right now that provide a much quicker rout to getting what you want then before and with no real reason to cap and go on playing like it was back when 20 was the cap, it's hard to find a good middle ground.

    Soloing didn't destroy this game. I did it back when we still had to grind for stuff (during the abhorrent first epic system when everything was CC and DPS against all immunity high HP critters). What changes was that instead of finding a middle ground between grinding for items with silly random criteria (like finding THAT epic shard or seal) we instead got the trad-able named EN, EH and EE without needing to actually run anything.
    .....
    You are completely right. I always bemoaned all that searching for epic pieces but back then I had a list of things I wanted to get eventually... and goals. It made raids fun even on bad days or disasters. It made even the most hated raid something I looked forward to getting better at (damn you Abbot). It made people come together and have things to do. Even for TR purposes you sometimes stayed at cap to get those 20 raids done or a few more just in case that TOD ring or that base item dropped which you could use for TR and even use in endlife for ultimate gear load.
    That's how I met people... helping eachother get better at raids, get better at helping eachother get the shineys we wanted.
    When MOTU came down we were excited, but the first things we did were a sure sign of why this was bad. We went and solo-ed or posted runs to ransack on certain chests. And even then the excitement of getting what you wanted wasn't there cause I could get the wisdom robe and sell it/exchange it for the charisma robe. Yes, I got what I wanted faster... but I had LESS fun doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    I really wish all the crying EE endgamers would read this about 20 times

    There is no endgame right now BY DESIGN. If u cant wait for the new endgame, go do something else. If u can, why not spend your time productively and talk about what you'd like to see at 30, instead of whining they didnt make u an endgame at 28

    The new endgame might be a complete failure, but i wont know until its here. And most of us have plenty to do while we're waiting.
    I've been waiting. In the meantime I've played other MMOs and other games and to be honest, I come back ONLY for nostalgia. I prefer playing a japanese MMO running home-made translations and scripts because whenever I want to play DDO to see if things are better... I still find no reason to stay.
    Waiting loses you people. I've made new friends, new goals... when people walk away to "wait", they may not come back.

    I gave MOTU a chance. It ruined my long term plans, my carrots were all gone and to be honest I don't find it enough to just run raids for "fun". When you ran a raid 20+ times with several toons, it is no longer just for fun. There has to be some sort of carrot. It did indeed ruin raiding and they've yet to find suitable replacements for that grind at the end.

    Because not everyone's cup of tea is the XP grind. Not everyone's cup of tea is finding random lootgen. Some of us like gear load-outs and piece-mail grind like Shroud and even that LOTB were genius ideas (albeit LOTB could have served up more interesting loot). The old epic item system was a long term carrot that gave you a path... There was a nice transition, a growing (if you will) of your character to reach higher levels of difficulty.

    I started with running the easier raids at cap. I crafted a couple of stand-in pieces. I ran the easiest epics after a bit of experience and gearing. I ran a lot of epics and raids until I DARED, yes DARED, step into the desert epics. Those epics were a goal... a thing you geared for. I ran Shroud all throughout to get my two pieces of GS gear that I knew would be useful running epics and for leveling up if I TR-ed.

    That was a rather worthwhile and EXCELLENT system, in my eyes. Yes, more and new content was needed. But content that still worked within that system, that maybe gave you decent named loot to propel you to the new challenges of EE and higher level epics and raids.

    Instead we got MOTU. And eGH was a brave attempt but not when the person making the loot seems to have zero clue about progression and how to make enticing NAMED loot. Random lootgen is an insult to progression. Random lootgen reminds me of Asian love for RNG and let me tell you... North Americans are not Asians and they unilaterally hate it.

    I'm waiting. The work they've been doing in the past year does not give me hope that this new end-game and system will be great.
    You need a system that both allows you to grow your character through XP grind and through gear progression. And hopefully something that isn't WOW with their love of rendering gear obsolete every update.

    I don't have high hopes they can nail it.
    Toons on Orien:
    Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)

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