Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default Secondary Tree for an Int-based Assassin

    I'm just about ready to cap my drow int-based assassin and I'm trying to settle on a secondary tree for it. From what I'm seeing I'm going to be really tight on AP either way I go as I'd love to take both of the trees to 24-26 points. Unfortunately with the capstone from Assassin requiring me to spend at least 41 points in the tree (including the 1 point for the capstone) that's not in the cards.

    I'm definitely going to be spending 3-6 points in Drow for 1 or 2 points of int (depending on where that puts my final score). Assuming 6 points and given the 41 points from assassin that leaves 33 points to play with.

    Here's my two setups I could see using with those points:

    Thief-Acrobat focus

    Thief Acrobat 24 AP-
    Staff Control: You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Quarterstaves. (1 AP)
    Stick Fighting: You can now use your Dexterity modifier for damage with Quarterstaves. (1 AP)
    Tumbler: You can pass through enemies when you tumble. (1 AP)
    Kip Up: You are immune to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces. (1 AP)
    Faster Sneaking (3): +50% movement speed while sneaking. (3 AP)
    Sly Flourish (3): Melee Attack: Deals +1.5[W] damage with +3 critical threat range, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 300 whether or not you deal damage. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gains a -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, and Will saves for 20 seconds. (Stack 5 times.) (Cooldown: 12 seconds) (3 AP)
    Haste Boost (3): Activate to gain a 30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (6 AP)
    Subtlety (3): -40% threat generation with melee attacks. (This enhancement cannot be combined with other Subtlety enhancements.) (3 AP)
    Charming (2): +2 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle, and Intimidate. (2 AP - needed to get to T4)
    No Mercy (3): You deal 30% additional damage to helpless opponents. (3 AP)

    Mechanic 9 to 12 AP (depending on Drow AP)-
    Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows. (1 AP)
    Tanglefoot (only in 12 AP version): Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Negates). (0-1 AP)
    Mechanics (3): +3 Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair. +3 to Saving Throws you make against traps. (3 AP)
    Awareness (1): +1 Listen, Search, and Spot (1 AP)
    Wand and Scroll Mastery (2-3): +50% to +75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells. Adds +2 to +3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands. (4-6 AP)

    Mechanic Focus
    Thief Acrobat 11-12 AP-
    Staff Control: You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Quarterstaves. (1 AP)
    Faster Sneaking (3): +50% movement speed while sneaking. (3 AP)
    Sly Flourish (1-2): Melee Attack: Deals +0.5-1.0[W] damage with +1-2 critical threat range, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100-200 whether or not you deal damage. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gains a -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, and Will saves for 20 seconds. (Stack 5 times.) (Cooldown: 12 seconds) (1-2 AP)
    Haste Boost (3): Activate to gain a 30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (6 AP)

    Mechanic 21-22 AP-
    Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows. (1 AP)
    Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Negates). (1 AP)
    Targeting Sights: You can now use your Intelligence modifier for damage with modifier with all crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows. (1 AP)
    Improved Detection (only if we don't need last points of int): You can detect traps and search from 50% further away. You also gain proficiency with heavy repeating crossbows. (0-1 AP)
    Mechanics (3): +3 Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair. +3 to Saving Throws you make against traps. (3 AP)
    Awareness (3): +1 Listen, Search, and Spot (3 AP) [optionally can sub in 2 UMD instead of 2 of the points for Awareness]
    Wand and Scroll Mastery (3): +75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells. Adds +3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands. (6 AP)
    Wracking Strike (3): (Cooldown: 4 seconds): Melee Attack: On Damage: Deals 5d6 extra damage to constructs and living constructs, and applies Wracked: This construct or living construct fortification is reduced by 10% and loses its inherent immunity to sneak attack. This effect stacks up to five times. (3 AP)
    Intelligence: +1 Intelligence (2 AP)
    Intelligence: +1 Intelligence (0-2 AP depending on whether we need the last point of int)

    Obviously neither of these are 100% set in stone. Things can be moved around, etc. The big benefits I see from the mechanic version is another tier of int, ability to use light repeaters with int modifier (though without any feats that benefit ranged), and Wracking Strike. The big benefits I see to the thief-acro are a maxed sly flourish, immunity to slippery surfaces/knockdown, and 30% added damage on helpless mobs.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  2. #2
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Some random rock hurdling through the universe to who knows where...
    Posts
    2,555

    Default

    If you're interested, check out the link my sig for the enhancement setup on my int based assassin. At the bottom of the OP I have enhancement suggestions for a drow version.

    If you're trying to pump your assassinate DC, then there's no question about putting 22 points into mechanic for int x2. If assassinate is just a side ability for you and not a main focus, then the knockdown immunity and helpless damage from acrobat is pretty compelling.

    Either way, I think subtlety and haste boost from acrobat and wand and scroll mastery from mechanic are must-haves. But it should be easy enough to fit those in.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Interesting read on the build.

    I see Weapon Finesse missing there and that kind of stood out to me...it seems like you'd want to have it there for times you have to use a light mace (skele's, etc). Unless I'm missing something the only weapons we can get dex-to-damage on without Weapon Finesse are daggers and kukri's. On second read I see your reasoning for it and it makes sense for the human build...I'm glad I can fit it in though.

    I wasn't planning on doubling up on Improved Critical but I think it makes all the sense in the world. There are times we'll want one or two eMG, times we'll want two knives, etc. I was focused on fitting in Dodge but after looking at your Dodge breakdown I realize I don't need it to max out the dodge in most situations. That means that if I want I can do both Improved Crit's and Weapon Finesse since I won't be doing Toughness/Epic Toughness. As you mentioned in that thread, going drow (especially a first-lifer like this toon) results in a lot less hp's but I'll live (or die) with it...it's the toon I have to work with.

    Do you find yourself ever pulling out a repeater? That's one of the big selling points for me on the mechanic line (the option to do acceptable ranged damage thanks to the high int). I'm just not sure if it would end up being enough damage with none of the supporting feats to make it worthwhile. Without that benefit I start to question giving up a maxed sly flourish, haste boost, subtlety, immunity to slippery surfaces/knockdown, and 30% added damage on helpless mobs for wracking strike and 1 extra assassination dc even on a toon focused so much on assassination.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Thanks for this thread. I've got about 60 AP so far and have mostly put them all in the assassin line because I find a lot of stuff of relevance there and am still rather unclear on the other two trees and what to use from them. I have nothing in the mechanic line right now and a few points in acrobat for faster sneaking.

    Dubbell: Your assassin build is also quite interesting, thanks.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 09-27-2013 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I have nothing in the mechanic line right now and a few points in acrobat for faster sneaking.
    While leveling I've found Mechanic crucial for the UMD boost. When you get to cap you don't really need it anymore but when leveling (especially as a first-lifer) getting 3 more UMD can mean the difference between getting off a Heal scroll or not. I've been really happy with that spread - basically taking just enough Assassin to get the next big thing (assassinate, etc), just enough T-A to get the faster sneaking, and then the rest in Mechanic to get the UMD boost.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    I've been eyeing the UMD boost, but it requires me spending 10 AP on stuff I really don't need right now. The only way to do that will be giving up stuff in the acrobat line, and sneaking is slow enough even with a 50% boost.

    My UMD right now is 34 I think with a GH active and I don't have a +Cha item yet which I plan to fit in (somewhere) at either 15 or 16. Failing on heal scrolls is definitely irritating though.

    I do really want to get wand and scroll mastery at some point.. ~120ish per scroll is already seeming low.

    Since we're all assassins here, anyone know what the deal is with Execute? It never seems to actually do anything for me.

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I've been eyeing the UMD boost, but it requires me spending 10 AP on stuff I really don't need right now. The only way to do that will be giving up stuff in the acrobat line, and sneaking is slow enough even with a 50% boost.

    My UMD right now is 34 I think with a GH active and I don't have a +Cha item yet which I plan to fit in (somewhere) at either 15 or 16. Failing on heal scrolls is definitely irritating though.

    Since we're all assassins here, anyone know what the deal is with Execute? It never seems to actually do anything for me.
    If you've got 60ap so far you can get by with only 34 in the assassin line. You may have to lose some things (most likely crit acc/dmg, killer, and execute) but it's worth it in my mind at least to get 75% boost to wands and scrolls and +3 UMD. I would never, ever give up the 4 points in Thief-Acrobat though - you're right, sneaking is slow enough as it is.

    I haven't played with Execute but from what I've read it looks like unless the enemy is below 20% health it's just a 3[w] attack. It's when they're low on health that it shines dealing an extra 500 damage.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  8. #8
    Hero
    2015 DDO Players Council
    Krelar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Since we're all assassins here, anyone know what the deal is with Execute? It never seems to actually do anything for me.
    The problem with execute is you that not only do you have to use it when the mob is below 20% HP (can be hard to judge) it also has a save. I have seen the 500 damage go off on occasion but not very often.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Thanks for the replies.

    I have less flexibility in the Assassin line because I need the thing that expands the crit range for daggers. I could give up some stuff but not the 13 points to get UMD. I also do like Sly Flourish.

    The thing with the Mechanic line is that tier 1 has nothing appealing. Thunderstone would be, except it's busted.

    When you guys use Execute do you see white "swooshes" from your weapons, similar to using the ED ability Momentum Swing? I do, but I usually don't see any numbers, indication of a save or anything. Once in a rare while there are no swooshes and I do see a number, but usually not. No idea what's going on there.

    Out of curiosity, the level 18 core ability says "on sneak attack" you kill stuff with a 20. Does that really mean any sneak attack or do you have to be actively sneaking? I think Assassinate also says "on sneak attack" but only works in sneak mode.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 09-27-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Out of curiosity, the level 18 core ability says "on sneak attack" you kill stuff with a 20. Does that really mean any sneak attack or do you have to be actively sneaking? I think Assassinate also says "on sneak attack" but only works in sneak mode.
    It really is "on sneak attack" and it really is that good. It's an enormous difference in kill speed for me, especially with all the different methods I'm currently stacking for sneak attack damage (bringing hires, staying in sneak mode most the time to let hires get agro, improved deception on Golden Guile, shadow daggers for blinding, bluff, and diplomacy). In a group if you play it right it's pretty much all the time.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Thanks, looking forward to it. After mostly surviving the undead-heavy lower levels, I've started enjoying this character. (Never before have I seen such a huge difference in characer power by gaining one level as I did going from 11 to 12 on this rogue!) I've been having great fun blowing through Gianthold, with a combination of my Rad2 dagger, Assassinate, shadow dagger (my fave enhancement!) and my manslayer ring.

    I'm L14 at the moment and I think my DC tops out at around 43, which seems to land on most stuff most of the time.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Some random rock hurdling through the universe to who knows where...
    Posts
    2,555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Interesting read on the build.

    I see Weapon Finesse missing there and that kind of stood out to me...it seems like you'd want to have it there for times you have to use a light mace (skele's, etc). Unless I'm missing something the only weapons we can get dex-to-damage on without Weapon Finesse are daggers and kukri's. On second read I see your reasoning for it and it makes sense for the human build...I'm glad I can fit it in though.
    Yeah dex to damage is limited to daggers and kukris on my build. Since I have the first core of acrobat to open up the tree, I also get dex to damage with quarterstaffs. If you really wanted to you could take the second core and get dex to damage and use a triple pos quarterstaff against skeletons and the Truthful One.

    I'm not 100% sure this would work but if you want to stay with twf, you should be able to scroll insightful strikes or damage as needed. It would certainly not be a convenient solution since you have to individually equip each weapon in your offhand to be able to use a scroll. EDIT: Tested, this does not work. Insightful strikes/damage only affect the weapon in your mainhand, so you cannot scroll it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Do you find yourself ever pulling out a repeater? That's one of the big selling points for me on the mechanic line (the option to do acceptable ranged damage thanks to the high int). I'm just not sure if it would end up being enough damage with none of the supporting feats to make it worthwhile. Without that benefit I start to question giving up a maxed sly flourish, haste boost, subtlety, immunity to slippery surfaces/knockdown, and 30% added damage on helpless mobs for wracking strike and 1 extra assassination dc even on a toon focused so much on assassination.
    I have a maxed out arti, also in my sig, that I have played exclusively since MotU. The reason I pulled my rogue out of retirement is because I was getting tired of the ranged combat style and just wanted something different. I enjoy melee, hadn't played it in a year, and wanted to get back to it. So I simply have no interest in using a repeater on my rogue. I know I would be severely disappointed with the ranged performance on my rogue since I have a maxed out arti to compare it to. But that's just my own personal reasons for not wanting to use a repeater. It might fit the playstyle you're looking for though.
    Last edited by CThruTheEgo; 10-02-2013 at 11:28 PM.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  13. #13
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Some random rock hurdling through the universe to who knows where...
    Posts
    2,555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Thanks, looking forward to it. After mostly surviving the undead-heavy lower levels, I've started enjoying this character.
    Esoteris was actually my first serious character. In his first life he was a dex based drow rogue, way back before we got dex to damage and had all the fort bypass methods we do now. To this day, I still hate all undead heavy quests. Even though I've now played through them on a variety of classes, even sorcs, I just can't shake that first impression.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Yeah dex to damage is limited to daggers and kukris on my build. Since I have the first core of acrobat to open up the tree, I also get dex to damage with quarterstaffs. If you really wanted to you could take the second core and get dex to damage and use a triple pos quarterstaff against skeletons and the Truthful One.

    I'm not 100% sure this would work but if you want to stay with twf, you should be able to scroll insightful strikes or damage as needed. It would certainly not be a convenient solution since you have to individually equip each weapon in your offhand to be able to use a scroll.

    I have a maxed out arti, also in my sig, that I have played exclusively since MotU. The reason I pulled my rogue out of retirement is because I was getting tired of the ranged combat style and just wanted something different. I enjoy melee, hadn't played it in a year, and wanted to get back to it. So I simply have no interest in using a repeater on my rogue. I know I would be severely disappointed with the ranged performance on my rogue since I have a maxed out arti to compare it to. But that's just my own personal reasons for not wanting to use a repeater. It might fit the playstyle you're looking for though.
    Yeah, I'd do the same thing on the human version that you did. I wouldn't be crazy about doing quarterstaves only but I'd live with it for toughness/epic toughness. I'm just glad I can fit in Weapon Finesse on the Drow version.

    I'm the same way you are with the ranged. I've pulled out the repeater just to try it a few times...but I have a monkcher with 3 monk and 3 ranger past lives. Seeing mid-20's and 30's per hit versus the monkcher's 100+ hits per arrow is...disappointing.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    103

    Default

    What I'm trying to look into is using high UMD for scrolls with blinding effects. Sleet Storm, Power Word Blind, Blind, Glitterdust. For the sake of guaranteeing more sneak attacks.

    I have a high focus on the Human tree. Taking everything I can up to Greater Heroism and using Action Surge to boost CHA on the skill boost for more UMD. I've made two rogues like this, one is pure Mechanic, the other Is trying to be a Thief Acrobat but is currently more heavily invested in Mechanic for the +3 UMD.

    Haven't really been able to test out the usefulness of the blinding scrolls yet.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Some random rock hurdling through the universe to who knows where...
    Posts
    2,555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelair View Post
    What I'm trying to look into is using high UMD for scrolls with blinding effects. Sleet Storm, Power Word Blind, Blind, Glitterdust. For the sake of guaranteeing more sneak attacks.

    I have a high focus on the Human tree. Taking everything I can up to Greater Heroism and using Action Surge to boost CHA on the skill boost for more UMD. I've made two rogues like this, one is pure Mechanic, the other Is trying to be a Thief Acrobat but is currently more heavily invested in Mechanic for the +3 UMD.

    Haven't really been able to test out the usefulness of the blinding scrolls yet.
    Glitterdust and blindness cast from a scroll both have a very low save and are ineffective as a result.

    Sleet storm will affect you and other party members but can be useful if you have FoM. Acrobat knockdown immunity should prevent the knockdown effect but I don't know if it would prevent the slow effect.

    Power word blind has a somewhat short duration, so you have to stop fighting to recast it if you're trying to keep an enemy blinded. It works but a greensteel radiance weapon is much more effective. It blinds on a crit so make a weapon with a large threat range (e.g. rapier, kukri, dagger if you have knife specialization). IMO, this is the first greensteel item a rogue should own, it's definitely a game changer.

    That has been my experience with those scrolls.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  17. #17
    Community Member Arkantios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    161

    Default

    Lol, or use the Lit2/Rad2 Khopeshes you have from the old rogue days :P
    XxMazexX the Rogue SneakATank, 27th Life, Completionist.

  18. #18
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    I find that even with just my one blinding (radiance) weapon, few mobs are "sighted" for more than a second or two once I start swinging. Strongly recommended.

    For starting out a fight on a single target, shadow dagger is awesome: they rarely save, they take damage, and it can be done while closing to melee.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Some random rock hurdling through the universe to who knows where...
    Posts
    2,555

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I'm not 100% sure this would work but if you want to stay with twf, you should be able to scroll insightful strikes or damage as needed. It would certainly not be a convenient solution since you have to individually equip each weapon in your offhand to be able to use a scroll.
    I tested this and it does not work. Insightful strikes/damage only affect the weapon in your mainhand making it impossible to scroll. Edited my post above with this info.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload