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  1. #21
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    Personally I think racial trees should not be limited to points spent to get to next tier, but only tied to character level. This would put it in line with the previous enhancements prior to the EP. I took helf dilly on a recent toon and found myself spending 0 points in that tree in the end...wish I went human for extra feat. I would not recommend anyone buying this race if they haven't already....hint, hint turbine.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Helves were never op, you had to deal with the horror of their melted faces to access their power making it much less powerful.

    On a serious note:

    Something needs to be done, as it stands there is no reason to ever go helf now and it's a p2p race.
    Helves never were OP, but were a good choice for most builds because they were versatile and offered overall value...which made sense since it was p2p. But the face that looks like a monchichi that I left on the lamp overnight and melted made it even difficult to play to begin with. The best thing that happened to that race was the creation of the elite spider mask from MotU.

    Now every race seemed to get a bump in usefulness, but helf took a nerf. I speak of dragonmarks mainly. But helf took a nerf because they now require 17 AP to get the best benefit from this race when it only required 5 AP before.

  3. #23
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    WF are still highly effective sorcs, wizards if they don't want to go into form for a quest, and arti's(juggs). Drow is bad especially with their broken enhancements. However can you name a single build that a helf would excel in compared to any other race? I really can't, if no one can that means there is no reason other than flavor to run one.
    ok? I don't know about all the other bs, but the only reason I ever took the helf was the dili. Well and the dmg% going at the same time as fighter haste. along with their amp. But really the only thing that set em apart from a human was take a feat or take a dili.

    As feats are ridiculously more then easy to come by with building pure of "most" anything is "flavor" I chose the dili. Mostly just cleric dili for leveling. Because I like to whip a cure serious and crit wand, later a heal scroll. Yes with a 2 rog splash I can umd it. After I have leveled to the end.

    Now one I could think of is a rog, or anything that is trying to force SA dmg. Mainly because of the second separate timer racial bluff skill that also forces SA the way bluff does.

    Personally I don't see anything as having changed. You want dmg you go horc. Meat you go dwarf. Bursts, you go human, Some self reliance you go helf. And I still can't see why someone would pick elf. Some reparations have been made but still meh compared to the main 3.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    ok? I don't know about all the other bs, but the only reason I ever took the helf was the dili. Well and the dmg% going at the same time as fighter haste. along with their amp. But really the only thing that set em apart from a human was take a feat or take a dili.

    As feats are ridiculously more then easy to come by with building pure of "most" anything is "flavor" I chose the dili. Mostly just cleric dili for leveling. Because I like to whip a cure serious and crit wand, later a heal scroll. Yes with a 2 rog splash I can umd it. After I have leveled to the end.

    Now one I could think of is a rog, or anything that is trying to force SA dmg. Mainly because of the second separate timer racial bluff skill that also forces SA the way bluff does.

    Personally I don't see anything as having changed. You want dmg you go horc. Meat you go dwarf. Bursts, you go human, Some self reliance you go helf. And I still can't see why someone would pick elf. Some reparations have been made but still meh compared to the main 3.
    Warning this is going to have some p2w items in the math to make the point.

    Ok helf you have to pay for if you spend your tp on other things instead

    level 11

    14 cha 3 tome 6 item 2 ship = 25 cha = 7 mod

    7 umd ranks

    4 umd tome (think they sell this not positive)

    1 spider mask

    4 gh

    3 golden cartouche http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Golden_Cartouche

    1 The big top http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Big_Top

    8 cha skills gs item (I forget the details on the gs changes but I think this is right)

    =35

    A heal scroll needs to have your roll + modifier be 40 so

    40-35 =5 which is 75% success

    This is on a non-umd full ranked toon. Not really seeing how helf would make anything better considering you need 17 ap for 95%

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    This is on a non-umd full ranked toon. Not really seeing how helf would make anything better considering you need 17 ap for 95%
    GS is still +6 Charisma. The best UMD tome in store is +2. This cuts off 20% from your success chance. And not every UMD character starts with 14 Charisma. Specially if it is a class that don't have UMD as class skill (!= Bard, Arti, Rogue) AND don't have Charisma as a primary ability (!= Sorc, Pally)

    This is a setup with 4 slots dedicated to UMDing (3, if Cha is one of your main stats), plus one rare item drop (Planar Gird), or an alt farming PDK commendations for GH pots.

    Cleric dilettante feat by itself give you access to the best cure wands you can whip per level (Cure Crit at 7). 7 AP give you a reasonable (but not perfect) and cheap way to scroll Heal in the level range it still is pratically a full health button.

    I agree that Helf Dilettante was nerfed. It is just that it was not nerfed from "best thing ever" to "most useless thing ever".
    Last edited by nibel; 09-30-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    GS is still +6 Charisma. The best UMD tome in store is +2. This cuts off 20% from your success chance. And not every UMD character starts with 14 Charisma. Specially if it is a class that don't have UMD as class skill (!= Bard, Arti, Rogue) AND don't have Charisma as a primary ability (!= Sorc, Pally)

    This is a setup with 4 slots dedicated to UMDing (3, if Cha is one of your main stats), plus one rare item drop (Planar Gird), or an alt farming PDK commendations for GH pots.

    Cleric dilettante feat by itself give you access to the best cure wands you can whip per level (Cure Crit at 7). 7 AP give you a reasonable (but not perfect) and cheap way to scroll Heal in the level range it still is pratically a full health button.

    I agree that Helf Dilettante was nerfed. It is just that it was not nerfed from "best thing ever" to "most useless thing ever".
    But don’t worth, nibel. I had several toons with the dilettante and now I can’t spare enough APs for the dilettante. The dilettante needs a review. Actually the whole system of racial trees needs an overhaul, but if not, at least they should review the costs of the dilettante.

    I would not recommend anyone buying this race if they haven't already… I'm going to reincarnate my halfelves in humans ... the race is not completely useless now (none is) but don’t worth, and is absurd to buy now.

    Dilettante never was “best thing ever”. Never. It was useful for certain builds, like other races offered other advantages to other builds.
    Last edited by Iriale; 10-01-2013 at 03:39 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Dilettante never was “best thing ever”. Never. It was useful for certain builds, like other races offered other advantages to other builds.
    Expansion is out for a few weeks and people already forgot how broken helves were?

    Half-orc was good for barbarians (and maybe fighter/pally) because of PA, Str, and extra action boosts.

    WF was good for arcane for self-healing.

    Human was good for feat-starved classes (paladin, bard, barbarian), or some multiclasses that requires a ton of feats. Exceptionally, was also good to stack Haste Boost and Damage Boost. Also, one of the two races that could invest in mental stats.

    Half-elves was good for eveything else. Melee DPS? Rogue dilly (also haste/damage boost stacking). Not enough equipment for UMD? Cleric dilly. Going on a divine and no planar gird? Wiz/Sorc dilly for GH scrolls. Archery? Helf AA didn't had a con penalty compared to elf. Artificer and Fighter dilly gives you a ton of weapon proficiencies. Paladin dilly for easy +5 to all saves. Monk dilly for easy 44% heal amp. Also, depending on diletante choices, could have bonus stats compared to other races on top of the above: Rogues with +2 int, non-fighters with +2 str.

    The only reason you went halfling, elf, drow, or dwarf before was for flavor reasons, or some very specific combination that only worked for that race (like dragonmarked elves).
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  8. #28
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Drow was good for DC wizards and some dex builds. Halfling was good for dex and ST focused builds. Dwarves were good for survival and cleric builds. Elves in ddo are good only for archers (it’s a shame…. In pnp favored class of elves is wizard), although pre-U19 elves were ok for a first life wizard (more spell penetration… post-u19 the arcanum cost don’t worth) But yes, halfling, elf, drow, or dwarf need an up (I think drow as 28 point build is too restrictive- the best of the race in pnp don’t translate to DDO. Drows should be a 30 build race)

    However, halfelf don’t need a nerf. And today halfelf is the WORST race. A not free race is the worst race. Lol.


    Dilettante don’t give healing amp, and the human healing amplification has been bigger always. Monk dilly gives wis to AC if you are centered. Halfelves were versatiles, as human. In D&D humans and halfelves are the races with more versatility. The other races are more focused, by background. But their advantages in DDO are not worse.
    Last edited by Iriale; 10-01-2013 at 04:40 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  9. #29
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Warning this is going to have some p2w items in the math to make the point.

    Ok helf you have to pay for if you spend your tp on other things instead

    level 11

    14 cha 3 tome 6 item 2 ship = 25 cha = 7 mod

    7 umd ranks

    4 umd tome (think they sell this not positive)

    1 spider mask

    4 gh

    3 golden cartouche http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Golden_Cartouche

    1 The big top http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Big_Top

    8 cha skills gs item (I forget the details on the gs changes but I think this is right)

    =35

    A heal scroll needs to have your roll + modifier be 40 so

    40-35 =5 which is 75% success

    This is on a non-umd full ranked toon. Not really seeing how helf would make anything better considering you need 17 ap for 95%
    excuse me but:

    there's max +2 umd tome
    gs items are +6 (because the value now is twice, however doesn't stack, so u had 6 before the changes thanks to stacking, now u have +6 to skills thanks to tier 3)


    also what i use to do is taking 1 rogue lvl at 1 and 13 so have 16 ranks at lvl 13, yes, u guessed, no fail on heal scroll XD

    arti pl give +1 umd each btw

    also, not sure if heal scrolls are needed before 13, from my experience from lvl 11 quests and higher is when u need healing while beating, rest of time mobs die fast enough to chug pots between pulls

    and like nibel said, helf was "the umd avoider" by reference, now has some goodies even lol, that's teh reason to...well, not sure if i will ever roll a helf XD
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Drow was good for DC wizards and some dex builds.
    Human had exactly one point in Int OR Cha less than Drow (because of +1 racial stat enhancement). The extra feat and the extra stat points were more important than everything else the drow race could offer for a primary caster. If the difference was 2 points, I could see that being better for that +1 DC. Half DC just made gearing easier for drow casters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Halfling was good for dex and ST focused builds.
    I had a dex-based halfling rogue since always. And I lost the number of times people told me that dex builds, while functional, was a flavor build. I never disagreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Dwarves were good for survival and cleric builds.
    Can you be more specific on this point? I remember dwarves being more survivable before everyone got racial toughness. After that, Human was more survivable simply for having racial heal amp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    halfelf don’t need a nerf. And today halfelf is the WORST race. A not free race is the worst race. Lol.
    Helves is still viable for more than 3 classes. This put them above WF. That is also a paid race.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  11. #31
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Human had exactly one point in Int OR Cha less than Drow (because of +1 racial stat enhancement). The extra feat and the extra stat points were more important than everything else the drow race could offer for a primary caster. If the difference was 2 points, I could see that being better for that +1 DC. Half DC just made gearing easier for drow casters.
    Human and drow were fine wizards pre-U19. And drow were the best pale trappers pre-U19. You can prefer the feat and +1 int or the +2 int and the bow proficient for low levels. But drows were a fine wizards and now are the BEST DC wizards.


    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I had a dex-based halfling rogue since always. And I lost the number of times people told me that dex builds, while functional, was a flavor build. I never disagreed.
    I was not fond of dex builds but they existed before the pass, and some were fine builds. Now dex builds have received a great up and the dex races too. Why nerf other race if others are obtaining an up? But if you say that halfelf sneak attack is good… well, halfling have sneak attack too (and ST bonuses) If something is good for halfelf, is good for halfling too.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Can you be more specific on this point? I remember dwarves being more survivable before everyone got racial toughness. After that, Human was more survivable simply for having racial heal amp.
    Human have been a great and versatile race--- as good or better than halfelf. But dwarves were good for first lifers (+2 con, it’s important in a 28 point build… new player deserves some attention too!!!! Too small ST bonuses) and they were fine clerics. I don’t understand why the cleric iconic is a sun elf and not a dwarf… x_x. Dwarven tactics are good too.


    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Helves is still viable for more than 3 classes. This put them above WF. That is also a paid race.
    Human is good for all classes. Humans and halfleves are the more versatile races for background.

    Viable--- all races are viable for ALL classes. But some are more optimal than others. Yes, human and halfelves are the generalist races. It’s not a surprise. It’s their background. But other races are better for more specialist roles. For example, what people say in this forum about a non WF arti? Is better a WF arti or a pre-u19 halflelf arti? Oh, wait, halflelf is too a paid race. Do you prefer the WF sorcerer healing or the halflelf sorcerer healing? Hey if the cleric dilly was OP then the halflef sorc will be better....

    Halflelves were good, yes. But not too good. The cleric dilly was especially popular. This game has created a new need with UMD. In pnp UMD is not as important as in DDO. The game fails in provide better access to umd (or better healing potions xD). Helf is specially good for cleric dilly—but is not better than a maxed class UMD. And was nice to have an option when you could not get a good UMD. Yes, it was useful but… do you want a not useful race? Lol. And the cleric dilly was the only thing in which halfelf excel. The rest of the benefits you could get them in other races.

    Let's see, nibel. If you want some improvements to other races I would give my vote with all my heart. But that does not mean there is no reason to increase the cost of the dilly: the only that is unique for halflelf. Currently there is NO reason to choose a half-elf over another race, because all that is special is absurdly overprized.

    I do not want that halfelves become in a race monstrously good. But today is a race almost useless! You can find reasons to play any of the other races. Post U-19, is practically impossible to find a reason for use a half-elf than in a flavor build.
    Last edited by Iriale; 10-01-2013 at 05:38 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  12. #32
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    GS is still +6 Charisma. The best UMD tome in store is +2. This cuts off 20% from your success chance. And not every UMD character starts with 14 Charisma. Specially if it is a class that don't have UMD as class skill (!= Bard, Arti, Rogue) AND don't have Charisma as a primary ability (!= Sorc, Pally)

    This is a setup with 4 slots dedicated to UMDing (3, if Cha is one of your main stats), plus one rare item drop (Planar Gird), or an alt farming PDK commendations for GH pots.

    Cleric dilettante feat by itself give you access to the best cure wands you can whip per level (Cure Crit at 7). 7 AP give you a reasonable (but not perfect) and cheap way to scroll Heal in the level range it still is pratically a full health button.

    I agree that Helf Dilettante was nerfed. It is just that it was not nerfed from "best thing ever" to "most useless thing ever".
    Yup messed some of it up then, but the main point stands, that was a non-umd class at level 11, a level where you can still byoh with cure serious potions. As far as most toons not having cha as a primary, all my toons have cha to about that level for now on for a cleric splash for divine might. It would be 2 item swaps for umding at that level 1 big top and 1 golden cartouche not 4. And as a previous poster noted you can get +3 from past lives if you were so inclined. Yes it's not perfect but it just highlights how poor a choice helf can be.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Let's see, nibel. If you want some improvements to other races I would give my vote with all my heart. But that does not mean there is no reason to increase the cost of the dilly: the only that is unique for halflelf. Currently there is NO reason to choose a half-elf over another race, because all that is special is absurdly overprized.
    I never said I don't want to see the other races getting a facelift. Some already got. Elves and dwarves are amazing good now. Drow got a very nice push up now that they can buy int/cha on racial core (if they only fixed their bugs). I'm just disagreeing that half elves are the worst race in game right now.

    In my personal list, I would put even half orcs under half elves, since I only see horcs being good for heavy STR frontline warriors. And even on this, they have a hard fight with dwarf (+axe damage) and human (Fighting style and heal amp).
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  14. #34
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    I'm enjoying cleric dilly on my pure fighter. Heal, restore and raise scrolls - what's not to like? I have more hamp and get 8 uses of the save clicky, each shot of which gives me +3 strength. You can argue it's expensive, but I don't find it horribly bad.

    Dragonmarks look totally meh. Arcanes can reduce ASF, and any caster would like 100SP and +3 to spell pen for 3AP. Not too shabby.
    Praise the Dark Six and pass the heals to pure melees.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Arcanum cost 2 APs for tier (6 APs), and 5 AP for requisites. In wiki says 1 AP, but in my halflelf arcanum cost 2 APs/tier. Arcanum don’t worth, is overprized (and is worse for the elf, elves don’t give nothing to a caster!). Spend outside of class trees is very bad idea for a dedicated caster, since the lost of spellpower and SPs. ASF is not good because the best casting clothes are robes but if you want a fleshie race with ASF drow is better (better int/cha!)

    Heal, restore and raise scrolls - what's not to like? I have more hamp and get 8 uses of the save clicky, each shot of which gives me +3 strength.
    I like it… to a reasonable cost. It’s not reasonable now. I have more healing amp in my humans. Humans get the clickie too.
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  16. #36
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I never said I don't want to see the other races getting a facelift. Some already got. Elves and dwarves are amazing good now. Drow got a very nice push up now that they can buy int/cha on racial core (if they only fixed their bugs). I'm just disagreeing that half elves are the worst race in game right now.

    In my personal list, I would put even half orcs under half elves, since I only see horcs being good for heavy STR frontline warriors. And even on this, they have a hard fight with dwarf (+axe damage) and human (Fighting style and heal amp).
    I do not know if the halforcs are worse, because it is a race in which I have little interest and I have not analyzed it after the update. If they are bad, then vote for an improvement. But it is indisputable that the dilettante is now stupidly overprized, and that without the dilettante half-elves are devalued humans. But, hey, if the halforcs are good frontline warriors they are now better than halfleves. Halfelf is a poor human now.

    What is required here is to obtain (again) a reasonable cost for the dilettante. It is not a crazy or OP proposal, not even surprising. Read the forums and you will see that now 9 out of 10 advices say “do not choose the half-elf”. This is for a reason, and not other that the race now has lost most of its usefulness. If you don't invest one only AP in racial tree for other races, they obtain some goodies. Halfeves not! Halfelves are their dilettantes!

    Some builds work well with few action points in class trees, and have many APs for use in the racial tree. But these builds are the least. The mechanics of “points spent in trees” and to have many general enhancements spread over several trees means that in many cases spend much on racial tree is unreasonable.

    They need to lower costs for the dilettante, or the race won’t be useful. And turbine is going to notice much as we do. I can not imagine anyone who is not newbie buying now this poor race ....
    Last edited by Iriale; 10-01-2013 at 07:07 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  17. #37
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    In my personal list, I would put even half orcs under half elves, since I only see horcs being good for heavy STR frontline warriors.
    horc has no bonuses to survival but if you wanted high dps it'd be hard to argue with it as long as you have defenses from something else. They have a mini version of one of the most popular twists right in their racial tree -- sense weakness. I wish I remembered the name of the horc version but it's too early yet and I need more coffee.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Arcanum cost 2 APs for tier (6 APs), and 5 AP for requisites. In wiki says 1 AP, but in my halflelf arcanum cost 2 APs/tier.
    Stealth nerf from U19.2? Because when U19 landed, I verified and it was 1 AP per tier

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    horc has no bonuses to survival but if you wanted high dps it'd be hard to argue with it as long as you have defenses from something else. They have a mini version of one of the most popular twists right in their racial tree -- sense weakness. I wish I remembered the name of the horc version but it's too early yet and I need more coffee.
    No Mercy.

    =====================

    I can see Horc being the archetipe to the frontline THF fighter. That is their niche. Every single enhancement they have enhance this aspect of the game. It is cool, it is thematic.

    Human and Helf theme is versatility. In different ways. Humans are versatile in the way it can fit any niche. All their enhancements have multi selections, and the ones that do not, are good for any class. Half elves are versatile in the way they dabble in what another class does. It adds new stuff to their build, but with a few exceptions (Rogue Dilettante), do not actually enhance what they are already good based on their class. You can see it on their lateral dilettante enhancements, that give low tier stuff from other class trees (Sly Flourish, Armor Mastery, etc).

    Most talk in forums are based on maximizing your strong points. For this, half-elf dilettante just lost a TON of power, because it used to give a lot of stuff for a irrisory cost (A free feat, maybe some stat realocation, and 6-8 AP). Their versatility theme is still there. It is just most costly.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  19. #39
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    Most talk in forums are based on maximizing your strong points. For this, half-elf dilettante just lost a TON of power, because it used to give a lot of stuff for a irrisory cost (A free feat, maybe some stat realocation, and 6-8 AP). Their versatility theme is still there. It is just most costly.
    That's the point though, it's become too costly to where you're probably giving up more than you are gaining vs going human for the extra skill point and sinking it into umd. Or going halfling for their sa and st bonuses, especially now that you can do dex to damage and really boost halflings.

  20. #40
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That's the point though, it's become too costly to where you're probably giving up more than you are gaining vs going human for the extra skill point and sinking it into umd. Or going halfling for their sa and st bonuses, especially now that you can do dex to damage and really boost halflings.
    Sure, but at which point it is actualy "too costly"?

    The dilettante tree, by itself, is 8 AP (12 if you want the branches). The core enhancements are 7 AP. That alone is almost enough to cover the AP spent requisite (and just enough if you go for the branches). If you want something else from the tree besides the dilettante tree, you can get them earlier too (since the last core is acessible at level 16).
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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