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  1. #61
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Sure, what's an unarmed piercing weapon?
    Wolf and Bear Claws for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #62
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Wolf and Bear Claws for example.
    Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?

    Edit to add: http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Focus:_Bludgeoning
    Last edited by Ashlayna; 09-27-2013 at 12:06 PM.

  3. #63
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?
    this

    it is not the damage that adds poison it is the weapon type

  4. #64
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    I'm going to take this one step further, I have the Silver Slinger, and the Bow of the Silver Flame. Both fire blunted ammunition. Does this mean I need to change my weapon focus, since the damage type is varied from normal? As somebody already pointed out here, despite normal arrows doing Piercing damage, the feat for bows is Ranged, not Piercing.

  5. #65
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?

    Edit to add: http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Focus:_Bludgeoning
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    this

    it is not the damage that adds poison it is the weapon type
    Yes that IS how it currently works...that doesnt make it correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    I'm going to take this one step further, I have the Silver Slinger, and the Bow of the Silver Flame. Both fire blunted ammunition. Does this mean I need to change my weapon focus, since the damage type is varied from normal? As somebody already pointed out here, despite normal arrows doing Piercing damage, the feat for bows is Ranged, not Piercing.

    No because Ranged weapons are treated differently now I don't actually agree with that both IC: Bludgeoning and IC: Piercing should affect those weapons IMO.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-27-2013 at 12:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #66
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This. It was a very legitimate change for game balance. A 3-monk splash (which is pretty awesome anyway with 2 feats and evasion, and plenty of good enhancements) should not allow characters to completely dump STR.. Every rogue and ranger would splash monk (most do anyway).
    A 3 rogue splash allows people to completely dump strength.

    A 2 ranger splash allows people to completely dump strength.

    Being an elf allows people to completely dump strength.

    As far as monks are concerned, sounds like Turbine WANTS people to be monks, as it was already a hugely favored splash for archers, and now people can be centered and use just about any weapon with kensai and monk levels.

    The issue I have is that they wont just settle on specific mechanics and leave it alone. Each time one of these changes occurs people have to pay to LR out of it due to their nerf. The enhancement pass is great and all, but at thios point, we're sicjk of LRing and doing feat swaps every other week due to some tweak or other. Just finish it off and leave it be.

  7. #67
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    My take on the STR-to-hit is that weapons are, generally speaking, *heavy*. To be able to move one at any dangerous speed, you have to be strong enough to lift it. The stronger you are, the more quickly you can get it to a dangerous speed, and the faster you can make it go in combat.
    My old instructer at 79 used to practice with a guan dao (which is basically a chinese pole ax) that was 3x the weight and he had that thing twirling like a large baton for most of the session. Using the weapon is far more technique than it is strength. Keeping it close to your body and allowing waist rotation to do 90% of the work is the way to use large weapons, not through arm strength or brute force (youll mess up your back eventually using a large weapon incorrectly, just like you would if you lifed with your back instead of your legs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Okay, so that it means increased damage is fairly obvious, but remember that, traditionally speaking, *dodging is included in AC*. A faster blade is more difficult to dodge, therefore has a better chance to hit a mobile enemy, as well as penetrate an armoured one.
    Strength isnt providing the speed however, technique is. The spinning rotation of the waist causes the arm to lash out like a whip, holding a dagger, is far more lethal than some of the crude stabbing motions you see in hollywood movies for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    As to the dex (or int) to damage, I see it as more about striking accurately than powerfully (str). A relatively weak hit to the neck can do a lot more damage than even a stronger hit to the torso.
    Yes, this is how a 110 pound people in china learned how to be quite lethal with two handed swords and spears back in the day. With Japanese Katana, the sharpness of the blade is doing most of the work. The art itself is more about patience and technique rather than raw upper body power.

  8. #68
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    My old instructer at 79 used to practice with a guan dao (which is basically a chinese pole ax) that was 3x the weight and he had that thing twirling like a large baton for most of the session. Using the weapon is far more technique than it is strength. Keeping it close to your body and allowing waist rotation to do 90% of the work is the way to use large weapons, not through arm strength or brute force (youll mess up your back eventually using a large weapon incorrectly, just like you would if you lifed with your back instead of your legs)



    Strength isnt providing the speed however, technique is. The spinning rotation of the waist causes the arm to lash out like a whip, holding a dagger, is far more lethal than some of the crude stabbing motions you see in hollywood movies for instance.



    Yes, this is how a 110 pound people in china learned how to be quite lethal with two handed swords and spears back in the day. With Japanese Katana, the sharpness of the blade is doing most of the work. The art itself is more about patience and technique rather than raw upper body power.
    Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.

  9. #69
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.
    Youre talking about weakening the entire body through malnutrition, which is not the same as one person being able to bench 450lbs and another being able to bench 150lbs, but being the better fighter due to having better technique - especially when bringing an equalizer device into the equation, like weaponry.

    Atrophy is not the same as one guy being 6'8 and 260 lbs and another guy being 5'8 and 180 lbs - both healthy and at full strength.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-27-2013 at 01:42 PM.

  10. #70
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.
    Were not arguing that a weakling can fight just fine were arguing that finesse is a legitimate means for fighting
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-27-2013 at 01:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  11. #71
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre talking about weakening the entire body through malnutrition, which is not the same as one person being able to bench 450lbs and another being able to bench 150lbs, but being the better fighter due to having better technique.
    It's just the fastest way to -str that I could think of in real life that can happen to a person at random from disease and injury. Excluding barbarians from this conversation that have the conan image which is a body builder image, I see fighters, paladins, etc to be built more like professional athletes, they're not walking slabs of muscle just in their arms, they're strong and fit all over. I don't see the str mod as just arm strength but a measure of arm, core, leg, etc.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Sure, what's an unarmed piercing weapon?
    Scorching Wraps?

  13. #73
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's just the fastest way to -str that I could think of in real life that can happen to a person at random from disease and injury. Excluding barbarians from this conversation that have the conan image which is a body builder image, I see fighters, paladins, etc to be built more like professional athletes, they're not walking slabs of muscle just in their arms, they're strong and fit all over. I don't see the str mod as just arm strength but a measure of arm, core, leg, etc.
    Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.

    What I am talking about is more akin to MMA before the weight classes got introduced, and gracie, weighing 180 lbs or so, dominating guys that weighed 100 more pounds than he did with all of it being muscle mass. Power lifters and body builders were getting into the octagon with this dude and getting twisted up by someone with far less sheer physicality than they had, strictly due to technique.

    The way we build str based DPS toons in this game usually dumps dex, and the equivilent str based dump dex person in real life would cut themselves down before harming anyone else.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-27-2013 at 01:52 PM.

  14. #74
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.
    I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.

  15. #75
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.
    For most people yes but certain fighting styles focus far more on finesse than brute force. So having alternative attack/damages is totally legitimate. Henshin for example use their internal energies so Wisdom would make sense for attack & damage for Q-Staffs...same goes for Shintaos for Unarmed.

    It doesn't really matter anyways both PnP and DDO is full with alternative stats to do various things especially attack/damage...check out my thread about it

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...lity-to-Y-Stat

    The thing is your wrong...theres not question or opinion its fact...your just wrong. Strength isn't the only way to be a good fighter.

    Oh and Crono do me a favor and lose a few of those quotes in your sig...it takes up WAY too much space.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-27-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thanks for proving my point
    The only point proven is that some don't understand how the game mechanics work. All unarmed attacks benefit from IC: Unarmed. IC: Unarmed, can only be had as a sub-feat of IC: Bludgeon. Hence, all unarmed attacks fall into the category of bludgeoning attacks, regardless of what type of damage they do as that is what the attack forms "normal damage type" is.

  17. #77
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.
    Right, which is what most RPGs use.

  18. #78
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The only point proven is that some don't understand how the game mechanics work. All unarmed attacks benefit from IC: Unarmed. IC: Unarmed, can only be had as a sub-feat of IC: Bludgeon. Hence, all unarmed attacks fall into the category of bludgeoning attacks, regardless of what type of damage they do as that is what the attack forms "normal damage type" is.
    Its only that way because the devs coded it the easiest way not because its the way it should be...it didn't matter much when it was first done but now it actually matters so now its a bug that needs to be addressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  19. #79
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    For most people yes but certain fighting styles focus far more on finesse than brute force. So having alternative attack/damages is totally legitimate. Henshin for example use their internal energies so Wisdom would make sense for attack & damage for Q-Staffs...same goes for Shintaos for Unarmed.

    It doesn't really matter anyways both PnP and DDO is full with alternative stats to do various things especially attack/damage...check out my thread about it

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...lity-to-Y-Stat

    The thing is your wrong...theres not question or opinion its fact...your just wrong. Strength isn't the only way to be a good fighter.

    Oh and Crono do me a favor and lose a few of those quotes in your sig...it takes up WAY too much space.
    Wisdom, being wise, being intuitive, having good perception may help someone see vulnerability in a foe, but their body still needs to be conditioned to take advantage of it. Like I said near the begining of this discussion, this is mostly an academic type discussion, I know that there are rules in dnd about using other stats, however my argument is that there shouldn't be.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    As far as monks are concerned, sounds like Turbine WANTS people to be monks, as it was already a hugely favored splash for archers, and now people can be centered and use just about any weapon with kensai and monk levels.
    There are going to have to be monk-nerfs or major buffs to non-monks in the future for things to even out. Centered in any weapon and full monk stances are wonderfully OP with no negatives.

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