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  1. #1
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    Default Nerfs that defy common sense (aka laziness)

    Ive played this game a long time, there have been a lot of unreasonable nerfs in this game. Oftentimes the nerfs appear to have been side effects of turbine not wanting to fix game mechanics to work as intended, this is getting worse recently.

    It is lazy and irresponsible and it hurts the game, many of my friends have left after ridiculous nerfs and I could go on for hours detailing them.

    The two most recent however are near the top of the list as far being nonsensical, and since newer players can relate to recent nerfs I will use these as examples.


    A: 3 lvls monk(ninja ass), previously allowed adding dex mod to all pierce and slash weaps as long as you remained centered. Now only adds dex to damage on shuriken and centered slash/pierce melee weapons(but not all).

    Here are the facts:

    1: this previously allowed bows to use dex for damage mod IF you were centered and take the zen archery feat
    2: this was supposed to allow normally bludgeoning monk weaps to use dex for damage if you could somehow add pierce or slash damage(this was stated by a dev).
    3: there are many other enhancements for other classes/races that allow dex to dmg for many of these same weapons, so it is a directed nerf, not just a nerf to dex to dmg for x weap.

    Arguments:

    1: Didn't ninjas use bows? Were they ineffective with them unless on steroids?
    2: Shortswords aren't normally monk weapons, so bows fit squarely into the same category as shortswords in that they are a weapon that can be a monk weapon if specially trained(like what taking zen archery feat signifies).
    3: It makes more sense for a bow to get its damage from dex than about any other weapon as far as I can see, and not only when you have pointy ears.

    Conclusions:

    1: They didn't want to fix handwraps to work as intended with this enhancement, so many types of unarmed martial arts are based on quickness rather than brute strength, this is lazy.
    2: Either bows got the nerf to help justify not bothering to fix handwraps or they want to pigeonhole ranged builds into needing strength again to be even slightly effective(which makes no sense, some of the greatest archers historically were not big strong peoples, they were agile).


    B: Sting of the ninja(also 3 lvls monk ninja ass) previously added a poison procing on crits to all slash/pierce weaps while centered. Again pigeonholed into shuriken and specific(but not all) slash/pierce melee weapons.

    The Facts:

    1 & 2: see above
    3: this is poison... but you need to be centered to use. Rogues use poison without needing to be centered.

    Arguments:

    1. Maybe im assuming to much, is this some sort of mind poison that you can only telekinetically apply to a weapon that feels balanced in your hands? Why cant I apply poison to any weapon I want? why cant I waterproof a quiver and pour a couple inches of it where the arrowheads will rest in it? Nonsensical. I can throw prepared flashbombs at will but I cant apply prepared poison? Silly.
    2. There is no reason poison cant be applied to any weapon with slash or pierce ability, regardless of the "normal" damage type od said weapon.


    Conclusions:

    1: They didn't want to fix handwraps to work as intended with this enhancement, still lazy.
    2: Bows got the nerf to help justify not bothering to fix handwraps, maybe in this case they are afraid of poison exploit used after manyshot/10k as well, still not justified and make no sense historically, arrows have been poisoned for 1000s of years, and poison works on any weapon irl, although rarely were weaps poisoned that could often kill outright without it.


    Take the effort to do things right or you will lose more customers, its that simple.


    Edited due to some bad info.
    Last edited by 01000010; 09-26-2013 at 09:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    A: 3 lvls monk(ninja ass), previously allowed adding dex mod to all pierce and slash weaps as long as you remained centered. Now only adds dex to damage on shuriken shortswords and kama.
    It still allows dex to damage so long as the weapon is a ki weapon and is slashing or piercing. If you have Whirling Steel Strike you can use dex for damage with longswords. My monk/ranger does it. Kensai/monks who have One With the Blade can use it with their chosen weapon as well. All they did was change it from "any weapon" to "melee weapon". Yes, it prevents dex-to-damage for monk-archers, which is unfortunate, but I don't believe it was done out of "laziness".

    As far as not working with certain handwraps, that may or may not be an oversight. Who knows.

  3. #3
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    Default uh no

    go read it again, it says shortswords kama and shuriken specifically, if its working with longswords you are about to be nerfed as well otherwise theyed have to admit the real reason for the changes.

    Not only that but it does allow shuriken, which aren't melee weaps...

    You could make an argument saying bows and shuriken aren't "ki" weaps since they don't generate ki, but they certainly use ki for 10k stars.
    Last edited by 01000010; 09-26-2013 at 08:28 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    It is lazy and irresponsible and it hurts the game, many of my friends have left after ridiculous nerfs and I could go on for hours detailing them.
    I would agree that nerfs hurt the game. They make people feel insecure about the purposes for which game mechanics are built (if you have to nerf something, you didn't take the time to make sure it made sense in the first place). Imbalance hurts the game worse, especially with how far DDO and many other MMOs have taken it. So nerfs are as necessary to flawed design as being able to shift the balance weight on a scale in more than one direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    The two most recent however are near the top of the list as far being nonsensical,...
    What is nonsensical about the abilities you describe is mostly that they exist in the first place. D&D was built around the idea of abstracting combat in certain ways. Dexterity was used to affect how much damage you do by controlling how often you score a "hit." Strength was given the aspects of affecting your ability to hit with weapons that benefit from harder swings and jockeying for position. It was also given an extra ability to affect damage again, by adding to the damage die.

    Everything that strays from those abstractions makes the entire combat system less coherent. So having dexterity-to-damage only apply to certain weapons is actually more coherent than the predecessor. You could claim that ninjas receive special training with those particular types.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Take the effort to do things right or you will lose more customers, its that simple.
    Its funny you should say that, because glaring exploits in character design mechanics has cost Turbine way more customers than any supposed "nerfing." You seem quite obsessed with finding those exploits. I would say your entire DDO career is centered around making fewer people want to play this game.

  5. #5
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    go read it again, it says shortswords kama and shuriken specifically, if its working with longswords you are about to be nerfed as well otherwise theyed have to admit the real reason for the changes.
    Let me quote you the ability:

    Advanced Ninja Training
    Requires: Basic Ninja Training (rank 1)
    Requires: Monk level 3

    While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier for damage with shortswords, kama and shuriken. You also gain a chance based on your dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

    If another ability allows you to remain centered while wielding other types of melee weapon, then those weapons will also get the benefit of Advanced Ninja Training if they are normally piercing or slashing weapons.

    Note the bolded part.

    Not only that but it does allow shuriken, which aren't melee weaps...

    You could make an argument saying bows and shuriken aren't "ki" weaps since they don't generate ki, but they certainly use ki for 10k stars.
    They're not melee weapons, but they're traditional "ninja" weapons.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I would agree that nerfs hurt the game. They make people feel insecure about the purposes for which game mechanics are built (if you have to nerf something, you didn't take the time to make sure it made sense in the first place). Imbalance hurts the game worse, especially with how far DDO and many other MMOs have taken it. So nerfs are as necessary to flawed design as being able to shift the balance weight on a scale in more than one direction.



    What is nonsensical about the abilities you describe is mostly that they exist in the first place. D&D was built around the idea of abstracting combat in certain ways. Dexterity was used to affect how much damage you do by controlling how often you score a "hit." Strength was given the aspects of affecting your ability to hit with weapons that benefit from harder swings and jockeying for position. It was also given an extra ability to affect damage again, by adding to the damage die.

    Everything that strays from those abstractions makes the entire combat system less coherent. So having dexterity-to-damage only apply to certain weapons is actually more coherent than the predecessor. You could claim that ninjas receive special training with those particular types.



    Its funny you should say that, because glaring exploits in character design mechanics has cost Turbine way more customers than any supposed "nerfing." You seem quite obsessed with finding those exploits. I would say your entire DDO career is centered around making fewer people want to play this game.

    They didn't nerf this because it makes no sense, they nerfed it because they didn't want to make it work as advertised, that's pretty obvious imo. Dex to damage does make sense for ranged weapons... aim you know? Hitting is great(dex), aiming for a spot less armored is better(dex to damage), arrow in the eye would be a crit.

    So straying from abstraction can make a system less coherent, wow, no point in argueing that, lol.

    I do not exploit, I do carefully design my characters to get the most out of game mechanics, if you don't or cant do that, it is your choice or ineptidude, everyone making better builds than you isn't necessarily exploiting.

    Ive gotten so many people to play this game, and I tried hard to get them to stay. People that expect turbine to do better keep playing, those that don't quit eventually, even if they try to justify things like this while here.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Let me quote you the ability:

    Advanced Ninja Training
    Requires: Basic Ninja Training (rank 1)
    Requires: Monk level 3

    While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier for damage with shortswords, kama and shuriken. You also gain a chance based on your dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

    If another ability allows you to remain centered while wielding other types of melee weapon, then those weapons will also get the benefit of Advanced Ninja Training if they are normally piercing or slashing weapons.

    Note the bolded part.



    They're not melee weapons, but they're traditional "ninja" weapons.
    Youre right my bad, I was looking right at it when I typed it up to. Blinded by anger at this enormous nerf for my build I suppose.

    I guess people not using bows, handwraps, staffs etc don't mind this steath nerf then.

  8. #8
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Youre right my bad, I was looking right at it when I typed it up to. Blinded by anger at this enormous nerf for my build I suppose.

    I guess people not using bows, handwraps, staffs etc don't mind this steath nerf then.
    I can understand the rationale for doing it, though. If you allow monks to convert dex to damage for every weapon they can use, strength becomes a dump-stat for them, which means monks would only ever have to focus on three stats: dex, wis, con. Likely they wanted monks to have to branch out a bit more into other stats (or at least strength) for certain weapons.

    Monks are already a very, VERY popular splash class. If 3 levels (or so) could turn your dex to damage? You'd see a LOT more monk splashes; it would almost be a go-to splash for rogues and rangers, so they wouldn't need strength at all. Not to mention if you allow a small investment into monk to turn dex to damage with bows, it makes the elven ability to do so pale in comparison. 24 points or so vs 5-10? Plus the monk levels get me evasion and other goodies? Yeah, no brainer.

    Does it jigger with some builds? Sure. But monks shouldn't have EVERY advantage.

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.

  10. #10
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    I assumed it was less an accident than an intentional change. It is getting hard to find an archer that does not have monk splashed in. The only real choices were to take away the ability with bows or to make it a higher level ability, but then actual monks would have to wait much longer to use it as well. Shuriken are the classic role-play ranged weapon for monks so they left it for those, but may be trying to do away with monk archers.

    It is unfortunate for people that built around it (I read an Ivy Handwraps build that is ruined now), but people will simply TR their characters and everything will be fine. These crazy builds usually come from people that like designing builds and now they get to go back to the drawing board and do it again.
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  11. #11
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    Default disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.
    I absolutely disagree, wether in a game or irl, dexterity(which encompasses speed and agility in this game) is a huge factor in damage.

    George foreman, massive strength, ive seen him knock people out of the ring with a jab, his power comes from the size and weight of his hands combined with the power to accelerate them decently.

    Ali however was mostly speed and agility, he could knock you out with one punch because it came out of nowhere, crazy angles to get by the other boxers defenses, more damage, pinpoint accuracy.

  12. #12
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I absolutely disagree, wether in a game or irl, dexterity(which encompasses speed and agility in this game) is a huge factor in damage.

    George foreman, massive strength, ive seen him knock people out of the ring with a jab, his power comes from the size and weight of his hands combined with the power to accelerate them decently.

    Ali however was mostly speed and agility, he could knock you out with one punch because it came out of nowhere, crazy angles to get by the other boxers defenses, more damage, pinpoint accuracy.
    Ali was still a strong man not an 8 str weakling.

  13. #13
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    Default true

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Ali was still a strong man not an 8 str weakling.
    True, but he did increase his damage with dexterity, and he beat a lot of stronger men.

    What i dont get is pdk adding charisma to damage, lol. But then its bugged for shortsword monks anyhow.

  14. #14
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    True, but he did increase his damage with dexterity, and he beat a lot of stronger men.

    What i dont get is pdk adding charisma to damage, lol. But then its bugged for shortsword monks anyhow.
    I think ali compared to foreman would be more comparable to pre-u19 barbarian vs monk, one uses there str to provide slow massive blows, one uses their str to provide rapid strikes.

    As far as the game goes this is an academic debate, but that's the way I see that the system was trying for.

  15. #15
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I actually saw trollsalots last brilliant post sine i wasnt logged in yet, does he ever actually say anything of merit? And what bs, i didnt report him, i just put him on my ignore list.

    Ok man, i apologize for making you look stupid on some other thread, now why dont you stop stalking me and spewing accusations and calling names like a child.

    Lorianna, you definitely win the prize for most intelligent opposition. You have arguements and they make sense, impressive.

    As far as the elf deal with bow dmg goes, halfling get same for shuriken, and other races for other weaps(including shortswords), so they are targetting bows specifically. Additionally its only one enhancement fir the races, certainly not make or break.

    As far as the power of monk splash goes, well that depends on build, but in this instance the builds that i were using that this nerf affected werent monk splashes, they were primarily monk levels.
    Oh, I'm certain changing it for bows was a specific, thought-out change, of course. As I said, the reasons for it are likely that they wanted to spread things out a bit further with the new enhancement system, and provide reasons for other builds, other combinations.

    An elven ranger, for instance, under the old system really didn't get very much; elves were kind of an inferior racial choice for anything other than a spell-pen wizard/sorc. That was their only real bonus. Now elves get the ability to convert their dex to damage with their racial weapons, which takes advantage of their innate bonuses to dex -- something that makes sense for the race, and gives people an incentive to play an elf archer, which is kind of the iconic image of the race (Legolas, pewpew!).

    With halflings, in the normal D&D rules (and in DDO) they get bonuses for thrown weapons. So, in the new system, they get that as well. It applies to any returning thrown weapon.

    And so on, and so forth.

    Yes, it means that a pure monk archer won't be able to simply pump dex and do crazy amounts of damage through a single feat (zen archery). Again, that's likely intended; monks are really meant to be a melee class, with some (semi-minor) ability with ranged weapons, primarily through Ten Thousand Stars. But they're mostly a melee class, and the tweaks to their enhancements reinforce that. My guess is that they wanted to shift the focus of the "master archer" back more towards the ranger, rather than the monk.

    I'm going to have to tweak my own monkcher, but eh, I can live with it. I'm sure I'll be able to find an interesting new setup for her.

  16. #16
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    Default i get it

    I understand where youre coming from as far as the iconic ranged guy being elf, thrown guy being halfling, scimitar weilding drow etc etc. But i personnally cant stand being shoehorned based on a few dnd books from years ago. I have no interest in imagining im legolas or frodo personally.

    As far as dex to bow being massive damage thats just not true, strength can be buffed far higher than dex. Going with dex to bonus on bows is a choice for synergy, not max bow dps.

    Nerfing multiclass synergy that isnt overpowered is just not neccessary or good for the game.

  17. #17
    Community Member Daitengu's Avatar
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    That it now doesnt work with any handwraps or vorpal fists is truly sad. The "normally" part is just downright stupid. Either it deals slashing/piercing damage or it does not.
    Actually it make a lot of the ninja tree useless for handwraps users and not everyone is excited about shintao. On top of that i dont know any great kama or shuriken at epic level and the better short swords are even alignment restricted.

  18. #18
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Don't forget that a Druid Monk in Bear or wolf form can't use the Ninja spy abilities either despite bothe dealing piercing damage. (Wolf form even deals piercing AND slashing)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  19. #19
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    lol. alrightie then. tinfoil hats OFF please...

    the REAL reason this was CHANGED (note, not nerfed, changed) was because it was NOT WAI before... yeah, you read that right.

    does improved crit: piercing work on bows? no. you need to take imp crit: ranged. in that light expecting an ability that works on PIERCING weapons to work on bows is kinda silly. ALSO... it was bugged to allow it to work that way, because it was OVERWRITING bow strength for those characters who had both... giving dex to damage even if the str was higher...

    and before you get your panties in a wad about it... yeah, it DID affect me some... i am currently running an elven rogue/monk/druid acrobat/spy with zen archery and a tiny splash into AA for some flavor... the dex to damage was a nice unexpected bonus that i couldn't figure out where it was even coming from (no, i don't have "grace").

    sorry you got burned, dude, but what you did was the modern equivalent of when paladins were ALL KotC because it hit everything for extra damage and not just outsiders.

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  20. #20
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.
    Tell that to a 90 year 110 pound Shintao Master that lays flat a 27 year old 250lb MMA champion

    @Katz: When the issue was brought up on the lama forums the devs said it was a bug that stuff like ivy wraps, vorpal fists, brawling gloves, etc. should be working and would be fixed in the future.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-27-2013 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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