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  1. #1
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    Default My question about Mabar and the preview

    What's the point, when the same exact complaints are constantly brought up, but are neither addressed nor even acknowledged?

    I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm just genuinely puzzled as to why Turbine asks for feedback so often but almost never participates in the threads, says what is working the way it should and what isn't, clarifies confusing aspects, says what they plan to change, and so forth. It would be like me noticing that my kids don't like some of the things I make for dinner and asking them what they'd prefer -- then just ignoring them and continuing to make the same dinners anyway.

    While some improvements have been made to Mabar, the core complaints about mechanics are exactly the same as ones I read in my first Mabar two years ago. And even some of the new changes are not improvements -- the mob mix is poor, monsters have too-low CRs, etc. etc.

    I don't get it.

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    simple. they want to test it under load, because they've had many times where load broke what they couldn't test on lammaland. and devs usually don't participate in forum threads because they almost immediately become flamefests. they might (or might not) read your posts, but usually that's not the folks who actually change/fix things, so it usually doesn't happen. they KNOW from the stealth cove run a few months ago that if they don't update the gear, nobody'll bother, so they did that, but usually mechanics don't get messed with because they break more stuff than they fix. we've lost at least two sessions of cove and one of mabar in my memory because "it broke".

    i suggested a few ways to increase lammaland participation years back, but it was pretty much ignored. probably they poo-poo'ed it when they saw it. meh. won't see me there. i have limited play time, why would i waste it on stuff i get nothing for? and, s'not like they fix stuff before it's released to the main server.

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    Quote Originally Posted by levesque2004 View Post
    simple. they want to test it under load, because they've had many times where load broke what they couldn't test on lammaland.
    It broke pretty damn quick last night .... we chased the dragon away from our altar room and then whatever the hell people were doing in the other areas just locked the whole thing with insanely crippling lag - someone was blaming cloud effects over voice but I've not had that confirmed by a dev.

    If there is anything that we, the humble player, can do to minimise lag inside the dragon chamber, some sort of official information would be greatly appreciated.

    And mob spawn level still aren't tied to the level range of the instance you choose, so you still have muppets running around the 26-30 instance and spawning level 22 mobs ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    It broke pretty damn quick last night .... we chased the dragon away from our altar room and then whatever the hell people were doing in the other areas just locked the whole thing with insanely crippling lag - someone was blaming cloud effects over voice but I've not had that confirmed by a dev.

    If there is anything that we, the humble player, can do to minimise lag inside the dragon chamber, some sort of official information would be greatly appreciated.

    And mob spawn level still aren't tied to the level range of the instance you choose, so you still have muppets running around the 26-30 instance and spawning level 22 mobs ...
    Rule #1: Always blame casters first.

    Yeah, heard that more than a little bit last night, though I wonder how the melee are going to protect the altar and beat on the dragon without firewalls? Meh, they had Mabar borked first time last year, they'll fix it, and it'll be ok.

  5. #5
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    It broke pretty damn quick last night .... we chased the dragon away from our altar room and then whatever the hell people were doing in the other areas just locked the whole thing with insanely crippling lag - someone was blaming cloud effects over voice but I've not had that confirmed by a dev.

    If there is anything that we, the humble player, can do to minimise lag inside the dragon chamber, some sort of official information would be greatly appreciated.

    And mob spawn level still aren't tied to the level range of the instance you choose, so you still have muppets running around the 26-30 instance and spawning level 22 mobs ...
    I don't think I would blame cloud effects. I was on a lever and we had no cloud effects or any other persistant AOE, but I was still getting crippling lag. It took me almost a minute to travel from the window to the lever to flip the light on due to near continuous tiny rubberbanding. Once I got to the lever it took me another 30 seconds to pull it because the rubberbanding kept pulling me out of range of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    I don't think I would blame cloud effects. I was on a lever and we had no cloud effects or any other persistant AOE, but I was still getting crippling lag. It took me almost a minute to travel from the window to the lever to flip the light on due to near continuous tiny rubberbanding. Once I got to the lever it took me another 30 seconds to pull it because the rubberbanding kept pulling me out of range of it.
    If it's cloud effects that are causing it, they wouldn't need to be near you to affect the instance that you are in.

    Someone else mentioned that spamming the lever when there's no dragon in your room just increases the number of gargoyles that spawn - again, more objects to track and more lag.

    Have no idea whether these are significant, but at a basic level they sound plausible enough.

  7. #7
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If it's cloud effects that are causing it, they wouldn't need to be near you to affect the instance that you are in.

    Someone else mentioned that spamming the lever when there's no dragon in your room just increases the number of gargoyles that spawn - again, more objects to track and more lag.

    Have no idea whether these are significant, but at a basic level they sound plausible enough.
    The lever spam one is true. We only turned on the lever for when the dragon was there. Persistant AOEs have only ever caused me lag when they are on screen, and even then not for a long time have I suffered lag from that. Not even last mabar was I getting hit this bad. I would put more money on repeated buffing or short term buffs wearing off and things having to be recalculated from 20-40 people.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 09-25-2013 at 08:42 AM.
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  8. #8
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    The lag is just one example of the broken game mechanics that never get addressed. As are the lack of enough players to beat the dragon at lower levels, the poor communications facilities, mob level problems, and so forth.

    Players have spent years complaining about these issues and debating possible causes. Wouldn't it be more sensible for the people in the best position to know what's going on, the developers, to shed some light on the matter? (Pun intended.)

  9. #9
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    The lag is just one example of the broken game mechanics that never get addressed. As are the lack of enough players to beat the dragon at lower levels, the poor communications facilities, mob level problems, and so forth.

    Players have spent years complaining about these issues and debating possible causes. Wouldn't it be more sensible for the people in the best position to know what's going on, the developers, to shed some light on the matter? (Pun intended.)
    That would open the devs to accurate criticism. That is something (I suspect) that they can not handle. As long as the criticism is inaccurate, they can rest easy knowing they know better than us, and we are just ignorant gamers.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    What's the point, when the same exact complaints are constantly brought up, but are neither addressed nor even acknowledged?

    I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm just genuinely puzzled as to why Turbine asks for feedback so often but almost never participates in the threads, says what is working the way it should and what isn't, clarifies confusing aspects, says what they plan to change, and so forth. It would be like me noticing that my kids don't like some of the things I make for dinner and asking them what they'd prefer -- then just ignoring them and continuing to make the same dinners anyway.

    While some improvements have been made to Mabar, the core complaints about mechanics are exactly the same as ones I read in my first Mabar two years ago. And even some of the new changes are not improvements -- the mob mix is poor, monsters have too-low CRs, etc. etc.

    I don't get it.
    Good morning!

    Thanks to all who participated in last night's preview! Sorry if it seemed we weren't participating in the threads so far - Last night during the preview, many of us were on the Live servers playing the event with you all and making observations. We are aware of player complaints concerning the event, and will keep you posted about any planned changes.

    Thanks!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If it's cloud effects that are causing it, they wouldn't need to be near you to affect the instance that you are in.

    Someone else mentioned that spamming the lever when there's no dragon in your room just increases the number of gargoyles that spawn - again, more objects to track and more lag.

    Have no idea whether these are significant, but at a basic level they sound plausible enough.
    Cloud effects aren't the root of the problem. Firewalls galore got thrown up dragon instances last year, and zero lag from them.

    I cast probably 100 spells in one dragon run last night, only to see about 5 of them do damage and 2 aoe's actually come up visually. Typed comments ran about 5m behind showing up on the chat log.

    If a firewall or ice storm is what people think is the straw breaking the camel's back, instead they might want to reconsider the refrigerator and freezer Turbine already loaded on the camel.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Good morning!

    Thanks to all who participated in last night's preview! Sorry if it seemed we weren't participating in the threads so far - Last night during the preview, many of us were on the Live servers playing the event with you all and making observations. We are aware of player complaints concerning the event, and will keep you posted about any planned changes.

    Thanks!
    Hi Steelstar and good morning to you too. I do understand that you were busy last night, I was just referring more generally to the fact that the same stuff seems to come up year after year.

    I do appreciate even this response, however! Is there any chance any adjustments may be made before reopening later in the fall, or are we stuck with it as-is once again?

  13. #13
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    The most likely cause of the lag is the Gargoyles spawning in automatically aggroed on the alters. They probably use the same AI the Kobolds in Bauldry's quest, you know the ones that were causing whole instances to crash. The Kobolds would spawn auto aggroed on the box, same way gargoyles spawn autoaggroed on the alter. I remember the first years Mabar event Kobolds would actually spawn instead of the Gargoyles so it seems probable.

    A possible fix would be to change the gargoyle AI. Have them spawn passive with a wondering function like the mobs in the ambush of Litany of the Dead, in range of the alter. That way the 10+ gargoyles that spawn at once would not immediately overload the instance by generating aggression/threat lists, or whatever they do, all at once. Instead each gargoyle would wonder around for a second till in range of the alter or take a second to spot the alter then head toward it, decreasing the chances of all the gargoyles aggroeing at once and all of them doing whatever calculations they do that overwhelms the instance when they all do it at once.

    There is something seriously buggy with quests that have several mobs spawn in all at once pre aggroed on the group. WHat happens is several mobs spawn at the same time already aggroed on players or an object and the server seems to stop taking player data. All player spells stop landing and players can't move but the server continues to calculate the mobs actions so when the lag bottleneck does stop the players are hit with all the damage the server calculated and die. The only things that stops the lag is all the players dying so the monsters revert to wandering AI or the monsters dying to prelaid aoe effects. The lag can also be stopped by a player forcefully quitting the game. My guess is when the player dcs from the instance the monsters have to recalculate their threat lists and it fixes whatever bottleneck was causing the lag.

    Likely aoe spells like firewall and bladebarrier can kill enough gargoyles to stop the lag before its noticed in the lower level dragon groups. As you increase level though the gargoyles get more HP and become harder to kill fast with AOES increasing the chance of lag because the monsters aren't being removed fast enough from the instance. This is probably why most CR26+ Dragon groups were failing do to lag while lower levels were completing without lag.

    I don't know if its the server calculating the monsters AI lists of what to attack and with so many players in the instance it causes problems or what but this same problem crops up in Mabar every year and in several raids and quests where monsters use similar AI.

    Examples:

    -Lord of the Blades. In this raid the issue used to crop up when the quori portal opens and several mobs spawn all in ready aggroed on the players.

    -VOD. Very rare nowadays but there was a time when the suicidal fire bats would spawn at the end aggroed on the players and lag the instance if AOEs weren't already up to kill them as they flew at the players.

    -TOD. Part II with the Shadows. Very rare nowadays that people tank the shadows and thus kill a lot of them via aoes and also that the shadows spawn rate seems to have been changed since the early days when players would kite them.

    In contrast Caught in the Web rarely lags despite large amounts of mobs spawning at once. The difference seems to be that the mobs in CITW spawn in passive and do not rush to attack the players unless the players are in range or they are attacked. Its a good place to start looking for a cause compare the CITW AI with the Mabar Gargoyle AI.
    Last edited by Vengeance777; 09-25-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance777 View Post
    The most likely cause of the lag is the Gargoyles spawning in automatically aggroed on the alters. They probably use the same AI the Kobolds in Bauldry's quest, you know the ones that were causing whole instances to crash. The Kobolds would spawn auto aggroed on the box, same way gargoyles spawn autoaggroed on the alter. I remember the first years Mabar event Kobolds would actually spawn instead of the Gargoyles so it seems probable. [snip]
    That's an interesting observation... in my 2 instances of trying last night, I can only use one as an example, but our lag spike occurred during roughly the 3rd-4th mob of gargoyles... and then everybody pretty much was shut down at once. So that's perhaps a corroboration of your theory... I have to wonder if perhaps multiple altar rooms spawned gargoyle mobs simultaneously, and thus caused the issue. For quite a while (5-6 mins.), all seemed good - in fact, we had the dragon down to 25-30% health. Some other groups succeeded in a kill; my groups did not.

    [This was on Thelanis... last attempt was instance D or E (one of my party succeeded in one of those; I was in the other); lvl 26+; approx. 10:15-10:30 EDT]

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance777 View Post
    The most likely cause of the lag is the Gargoyles spawning in automatically aggroed on the alters. They probably use the same AI the Kobolds in Bauldry's quest, you know the ones that were causing whole instances to crash. The Kobolds would spawn auto aggroed on the box, same way gargoyles spawn autoaggroed on the alter. I remember the first years Mabar event Kobolds would actually spawn instead of the Gargoyles so it seems probable.

    A possible fix would be to change the gargoyle AI. Have them spawn passive with a wondering function like the mobs in the ambush of Litany of the Dead, in range of the alter. That way the 10+ gargoyles that spawn at once would not immediately overload the instance by generating aggression/threat lists, or whatever they do, all at once. Instead each gargoyle would wonder around for a second till in range of the alter or take a second to spot the alter then head toward it, decreasing the chances of all the gargoyles aggroeing at once and all of them doing whatever calculations they do that overwhelms the instance when they all do it at once.

    There is something seriously buggy with quests that have several mobs spawn in all at once pre aggroed on the group. WHat happens is several mobs spawn at the same time already aggroed on players or an object and the server seems to stop taking player data. All player spells stop landing and players can't move but the server continues to calculate the mobs actions so when the lag bottleneck does stop the players are hit with all the damage the server calculated and die. The only things that stops the lag is all the players dying so the monsters revert to wandering AI or the monsters dying to prelaid aoe effects. The lag can also be stopped by a player forcefully quitting the game. My guess is when the player dcs from the instance the monsters have to recalculate their threat lists and it fixes whatever bottleneck was causing the lag.

    Likely aoe spells like firewall and bladebarrier can kill enough gargoyles to stop the lag before its noticed in the lower level dragon groups. As you increase level though the gargoyles get more HP and become harder to kill fast with AOES increasing the chance of lag because the monsters aren't being removed fast enough from the instance. This is probably why most CR26+ Dragon groups were failing do to lag while lower levels were completing without lag.

    I don't know if its the server calculating the monsters AI lists of what to attack and with so many players in the instance it causes problems or what but this same problem crops up in Mabar every year and in several raids and quests where monsters use similar AI.

    Examples:

    -Lord of the Blades. In this raid the issue used to crop up when the quori portal opens and several mobs spawn all in ready aggroed on the players.

    -VOD. Very rare nowadays but there was a time when the suicidal fire bats would spawn at the end aggroed on the players and lag the instance if AOEs weren't already up to kill them as they flew at the players.

    -TOD. Part II with the Shadows. Very rare nowadays that people tank the shadows and thus kill a lot of them via aoes and also that the shadows spawn rate seems to have been changed since the early days when players would kite them.

    In contrast Caught in the Web rarely lags despite large amounts of mobs spawning at once. The difference seems to be that the mobs in CITW spawn in passive and do not rush to attack the players unless the players are in range or they are attacked. Its a good place to start looking for a cause compare the CITW AI with the Mabar Gargoyle AI.
    Mass Invis the alter after activation Gargoyles in the room I was in aggroed on the caster that cast the invis (me) not the altar.


    Lookin for sumthin to kill!!

  16. #16
    Community Member WilliamBraveheart's Avatar
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    also was surprised that Wail and finger killed the gargoyles.

    Instance was 20-25
    Last edited by WilliamBraveheart; 09-25-2013 at 10:00 AM.


    Lookin for sumthin to kill!!

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    I see a lot of speculation about the source of lag. It's firewall, it's summons, it's disco ball, it's angry gargoyles etc. I'll throw my 2 cents in. I don't think it's any one thing. Barring algorithmic problems, and network problems, it just looks like the CPUs are being crushed when everything spawns essentially simultaneously server wide. In no other event, not even crystal cove, are thousands of mobs coming into being basically at the same time. Regular non-event use of the servers would never come close to that level of use. This is not to mention a few hundred players casting every spell they can think, adding summons to the mix or just swinging their weapons wildly.

    If it is indeed a CPU problem, and after 4 years of no progress on this front, it might be reasonable to assume this is the case, the only solution is going to be to stagger the instances somehow, or reduce the instance sizes in the hope that reducing the numbers of objects in an instance causes a logarithmic easing in the number of calculations needed.

  18. #18

    Default Lvl over lap

    I was in a raid group in the graveyard lvl 16-20 when it came time for the dragon fight I was left out in the cold as I was the high lvl in the group at 20 and the dragon lvl are 16-19. There ended up being only one other person in the Summons chamber with me. The lvl should not have over lap like this preventing raid parties from that are valid in the graveyard to not be able to run the dragon together.
    Last edited by Tom.JonesJr; 09-25-2013 at 10:17 AM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Good morning!

    Thanks to all who participated in last night's preview! Sorry if it seemed we weren't participating in the threads so far - Last night during the preview, many of us were on the Live servers playing the event with you all and making observations. We are aware of player complaints concerning the event, and will keep you posted about any planned changes.

    Thanks!
    Thank you. I hope this includes stuff that we've mentioned for years now. That it requires way to much turn in material and therefore the actual event only run so often. This is way different from Crystal Cove. Also - the chance of failure increases exponentially compared to Crystal Cove. Failing after grinding mats for hours really hurts.

    The second part is BTC stuff. Cannot be mentioned often enough. This just eats up inventory. It would be better if it's treated like Cannith and Crystal Cove. BTA until you hit the Epic levels. It's not like you haven't already added another grinding feature, the signet, to occupy our time with.

    If you would do something about these two you would change a lot of peoples feelings about the event. I mean the items are marginal as they are - mostly for PMs and Monks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Good morning!

    Thanks to all who participated in last night's preview! Sorry if it seemed we weren't participating in the threads so far - Last night during the preview, many of us were on the Live servers playing the event with you all and making observations. We are aware of player complaints concerning the event, and will keep you posted about any planned changes.

    Thanks!
    If many of you were on the Live servers, did any of you experience the same instance-locking lag that we did in the summoning chamber? If you'd like to see it for yourself, come to Ghallanda and turn the event back on for an evening.

    How about you giving us some factual feedback on what contributes towards the lag specific to the chamber - a nebulous "various misc." isn't really what I'm hoping for - it's clearly something that we're doing so tell us and we'll know not to do it. Or are we supposed to cross our fingers and hope that it's all sorted when the event comes back for real?

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