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  1. #1
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Default Defensive (SD & DoS) stance: Clarification asked to Devs

    Everyone knows about the problem with defensive stance from SD and DoS: it requires to wield a shield, but if you swap weapon or grab a scroll, you loose stance during the swapping time and thus loose HP granted by Con bonus and %HP.

    When it appeared, with the update, I thought: "Well, this is one among other bugs, let's give Turbine time to fix it". Then came patch 1: "Ok, there are big problems to solve, I can understand nothing has been done yet". But after patch 2, nothing has been done again, while other low (or very low, or even undesirable) things have been implemented (horrible loot button, fix of dodge stacking among others). Now I would like some clarification from a dev: Is this behavior of defensive stance WAI? And if not, is it investigated or should we not expect a fix before a year?

    *Edit: Oh! And I forgot to mention that horrible "DO NOT USE" icon when you dare activate your stance ...
    Last edited by Feithlin; 09-24-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feithlin View Post
    Everyone knows about the problem with defensive stance from SD and DoS: it requires to wield a shield, but if you swap weapon or grab a scroll, you loose stance during the swapping time and thus loose HP granted by Con bonus and %HP.

    When it appeared, with the update, I thought: "Well, this is one among other bugs, let's give Turbine time to fix it". Then came patch 1: "Ok, there are big problems to solve, I can understand nothing has been done yet". But after patch 2, nothing has been done again, while other low (or very low, or even undesirable) things have been implemented (horrible loot button, fix of dodge stacking among others). Now I would like some clarification from a dev: Is this behavior of defensive stance WAI? And if not, is it investigated or should we not expect a fix before a year?
    It's actually worse than that. on my SD sitting there with a shield and a heal scroll doesn't give my bonus HP at all. I sit at 350ish HP, heal up and pull my sword and my HP jumps up to just sub 500.

    Realistically it doesn't require a shield it requires a shield and weapon.


  3. #3
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    i think the QA team acknowledged it on the lamaland forums when u19 was being tested. just a "read by QA" flyby but enough for us to know it's on the list and to assume it's not WAI

    whipping out a scroll to heal and not getting your max HP is irritating, but i can see how it could be WAI as it's not a weapon, would be better if you just had to have a shield out. what's even more annoying is whipping out a potency scepter, sure you get the max HP back when the scepter is out, so you can heal to full, but those extra HP then get promptly stripped when you switch back to your main weapon.

    then there is that oddity where if you keep switching weapons you slowly bleed out HP with each switch. makes me think the % bonus to HP are calculated without the CON bonus when it is applied, then with the CON bonus when it is removed. was a fun way to kill my self in the market, and a small enough loss to not really matter in quest, but a bug nonetheless.

    finally, why the S&B requirement in the first place? sure my paly might be S&B for the hell of it, but i don't begrudge other palies or fighters who want to go THF or TWF having the juicy HP bonus.

    edit: found the QA post
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ed#post5059157
    Last edited by ReaperAlexEU; 09-24-2013 at 02:08 PM. Reason: found the QA post
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  4. #4
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    The idea of the "Defender" is, well, they are defending themselves right. The shield makes sense. if you were to give the AC, HP, STR mod and hate generation and still allow a two hander then it would become "required" because it would be OP compared to other enhancement lines.

    Whilst it certainly caused me to re-think my Great Axe Fighters build it finally made that sword n board one I have been mocked for fo so long a lot more viable. In fact I would say it's probably a little more viable that my two hander. Slower DPS but about the same hate gen so good from that perspective to do some Intim Crowd control.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    The idea of the "Defender" is, well, they are defending themselves right. The shield makes sense. if you were to give the AC, HP, STR mod and hate generation and still allow a two hander then it would become "required" because it would be OP compared to other enhancement lines.

    Whilst it certainly caused me to re-think my Great Axe Fighters build it finally made that sword n board one I have been mocked for fo so long a lot more viable. In fact I would say it's probably a little more viable that my two hander. Slower DPS but about the same hate gen so good from that perspective to do some Intim Crowd control.
    yeah, it does from the flavour, but in terms of gameplay, does it really hurt things to let the other fighting styles get the same bonuses? you are right about it becoming required, as it was before the enhancement pass. but doesn't that just mean there needs to be tastier stuff on offer?

    i had a kensai years ago, he's still stuck at lvl20 on gland where all the euro toons were moved to. i've popped on and had a look at things since the enhancement pass but nothing really excites me. not like my 28 point dwarven barbarian i have on thelanis, the first toon i rolled up when i migrated to the US servers. i'm loving his new enhancements, and the sheer brute force he has that has overshadowed my kensai (who had better gear when they were both 20)

    so +6 STR/CON and 20% hp does look very nice, and if THF and TWF can get it then yes it will be a no-brainer. but only because the rest of the stuff just kinda looks meh. ok, the crit threat and doublestrike are nice. but i can get over 30 mins of rage on my barb compared to (i think) 10 mins of power surge on my old kensai (been a while, but should be in the right ballpark). yes the kensai has bonuses to dmg that dont show up as plain STR, but still, with a higher base dice on his main weapon my kensai was hitting for a lot less than my barb was when they were both lvl20, more than the doublestrike makes up for (and hjaste boost is nommy but more bust dmg than sustained). so i'd love to see fighters get some buffing and letting them (along with palies) get the defensive bonuses is a quick fix but there is room for more.

    just for the giggles i'd like to drag RL into this. not to make any definitive points, i think you're remark on game balance is the most important part to discuss, but just because i find this interesting and you may too. you can also be very defensive with just a sword, even more so with 2 swords. i never could hit my sensei in kendo when he was using 2 swords, he'd always block or pin my attack with one then strike me with the other. sure i have no experience with a shield but i do know there is a lot you can do with just blades. one of the hardest parts about learning kendo is trying not to be just defensive. instinct will help you block an attack, expertise will help you turn an attack into a counter attack. so in-game flavour aside it's not too outlandish to see a defensive build getting these bonuses even without a shield. anyway, we both know RL has no bearing on the game, if it did we'd get a bonus to attack whilst moving instead of a penalty!

    and yes, it is hard to resist smug mode now my S&B paly has these bonuses and others don't, but i'd still like to see my fellow players get the same bonuses. i'm quite happy with my gimp just as he is, which is a very good character to explore new quests with on my own when i'm not in a hurry (see barbarian for when i'm in a hurry )

    p.s. my S&B DoS paly has heal scrolls as backup, he's got a torc and CSW for main healing and regenerating LoH for burst healing. ahh, smug mode
    Last edited by ReaperAlexEU; 09-24-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post

    Whilst it certainly caused me to re-think my Great Axe Fighters build it finally made that sword n board one I have been mocked for fo so long a lot more viable. In fact I would say it's probably a little more viable that my two hander. Slower DPS but about the same hate gen so good from that perspective to do some Intim Crowd control.
    You're wrong, it isn't more viable than it was.

    Proof? My paladin tank, which was my first 32 pt character, and my most worked-on character, with the most past-lives, most epic gear, most tomes, and most thought...has lost HP, AC, DPS, and I believe PRR, threat, and saves, as well as Intimidate, with the enhancement changes. In fact, his gains are almost imperceptible.
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  7. #7
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Changing the defensive stances to require a shield was an awful decision all on its own. That it also comes with some (foreseeable) bugs as well, emphasizes just how poor an idea it was.

    On top of that, both fighter and paladin have only 2 PrEs, and when one of those essentially requires a shield to be used for half of its enhancements, it greatly restricts character options on those classes, and all but forces one to multiclass. In my case, I just can't bear to even log onto my paladin at this point, for how badly he has been nerfed, and unnecessarily!
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  8. #8
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    I can't speak to Pallies, personally I can't stand them. My S&B tank is a fighter and he's a LOT more viable than he was pre-enhancement pass and currently might be more viable than my Two-Hander as he takes a LOT less damage.

    It think this pass is more about trying to give players choices again. The idea basically that you can't have it all, or ever most of it. Yeah it's busted a couple of really fun builds for me but breathed a great deal of life into plenty of other toons that got shelved for a long time now so it's a net positive.

    I think my point stands though that if the benefits from SD were easy to get without a shield then they would become absolute "required" enhancements instead of a choice like they are now.


  9. #9
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Back to the original point of the OP, please fix the temporary loss of hit points when you swap a weapon or shield. This is really annoying.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
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