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  1. #41
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Stopping every 30 seconds to drink a cure pot sucks and expecting the melees in your group to do so is just stupid.

    Cast a friggin mass cure.
    I agree with this as well. Especially if you hjeal meh!

  2. #42
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Since most agree that divines should not have to ever throw a heal, it is only fair that no one ever be expected to do anything. There should be no difference in the view of divine's healing, arcane's buffing, rogues disabling traps. If there is, then that is treating the divines as the special class they feel they should be, and I just can't go along with that.
    I think using the term "most" based on forum comments is really stretching the definition. Personally I think a majority of players just want to play and have fun. There are some "special" people out there that don't know how to function in group settings and their interactions with groups will unfortunately taint how people see the interactions of players.

    I like to help people open up to alternate possibilities like running quests without divines/arcanes etc. When I can show a player how using more than auto-attack can help them as well as showing them alternatives to "Keeping/Restoring" HP I call it a win in my book. Even more when everyone has fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    When divines start acting "special" the only reasonable course of action is to sink to their level and act "special" too! It is lots of fun. My favorite pug moment was when I got to leave a "special" divine's soul stone in a pool of lava, then rezing everyone else.
    Divine characters are not the only ones that think they are "special" - In all cases it is better to let actions speak and politely remove the "problem" between quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm not one of them. What I said applies to everyone: a party should be a team and should work together (unless I suppose the terms of the party are set up in advance to preclude this.. in which case I likely won't join, personally.)
    Yes, and I would go one step further. If I can do something to help someone else out regardless of the "pre defined party rules" I will

  3. #43
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxgolg View Post
    Dragonmark of passage or go home. Melees should be using alacrity items.
    I'd rather play with people smart enough not to gimp themselves with such lousy equipment.

    Now hjaste meh!

  4. #44
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Since most agree that divines should not have to ever throw a heal, it is only fair that no one ever be expected to do anything. There should be no difference in the view of divine's healing, arcane's buffing, rogues disabling traps. If there is, then that is treating the divines as the special class they feel they should be, and I just can't go along with that.
    A divine who doesn't heal is as useful as a blow-up doll with no holes.

    Some thing else is better in any role they can attempt to fill.

    Hjeal meh.

  5. #45
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    6 people in the same quest instance soloing should be a meme if it isnt already. The entire idea of wanting to group, but not wanting to help anyone else is a direct contradiction, as well as hilarious.
    My good toons are at 28 so now I'm working on my gimps. Started playing my pretty terrible 32-point halfling clonk who is pretty much a hjealbot with and awesome stunning fist/EIN DC and that's about it. Complete flavor build, that flavor being horse manure.

    Did a bunch of EEs last night with a bunch of borderline full-****** fighter builds and a wizard. it was awesome, some of the most fun we had in ages.

    I like making quests trivial and if that mean actually using some class interdependency as a feature instead of a bug so be it.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    6 people in the same quest instance soloing should be a meme if it isnt already. The entire idea of wanting to group, but not wanting to help anyone else is a direct contradiction, as well as hilarious.
    never had a real RP session in your life then I take it. The best PnP games I ever played no one made a character that others had any idea of waht it was, where the old school rules of not letting other players know a thing that was on anothers character sheet. Where each had their own personal motivations and the DM expertly wove those into whatever adventure he had planned and adapting and even ignoring those plans if the various players seemed more motivated by those personal goals.

    Such groups are rarely together in play, one might be busy seducing a tavern wench to make a local asset and gain intel on the area, another might be browsing the local smithy for quality gear, another might be planning on robbing some random well dressed noble, and 2 others might be squaring off for a fight to the death after a completely in character argument grew into open hostility. Maybe and i mean just maybe they will all end up working together, or killing each other, but that is the best part of first adventures with fresh characters. The whole unknowable aspect of how the characters will interact not how well the players will cooperate.

    That is the disconnect pure gamers have here on DDO, there is the player and the character, and they are not the same being. No more then batman and bruce wayne are.

  7. #47
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    LoL man you would not last a day in a real table top group with thinking like that. One cant play a divine without being acting special, because they are, they walk hand in hand with the Powers That Be. One cant properly call ones self a role player if they lack the holier then thou mentality. Some mindsets simply cant immerse themselves into anothers, but that is exactly waht RPing is all about.

    When you play someone who literally can commune with the being that created his entire species how can you be expected to act like the ignorant masses of fighters and barbarians who think fire is magic?

    Understand that many of us on DDO even if we are not on sarlona nor in a group who posted itself as RP, are in character at least lightly. Especially those kind enough to lend aid to others.

    Racism and bigotry are part and parcel of Roleplaying in fantasy settings. Partly because there are gods of every race and they rarely get along to well. Crusades and race wars are not just an occasional but a constant part of most D&D world settings.

    Rogues are not special for learning skills anyone can learn, wizards for that very same reason, its about simple education and requires not one bit of actual worldly understanding or spiritual enlightenment. Monks alone of the physical classes compare due to decades of physical and spiritual training. Wisdom scores are hugely more important in PnP then for just a good casting stat or AC boost, its important because if your character lacks wisdom you cant do other then play them as the fools they are, easy to take advantage of, and incapable of understanding the majority of events going on around them. Intel can certainly help abit, but only if you have the knowledge skills to go along with it. Wisdom is about being able to perceive and understand the unseeable and unknowable. When ever something confusing is going on a player can simply elect to make a wisdom roll to try to get a handle on the going ons around him.

    This is why the wise and divinely touched ARE SPECIAL and are suppose to be treated as such. A cleric when among people of his faith never lacks for a welcome into a home and a meal that night. A wayward rogue clad in dark leathers and armed to the teeth is a menace on sight that will likely be hung just for lingering in a town he is not known or wanted in.
    Not everyone interprets that role as you do. Many would interpret communing with a higher power as a humbling experience, and roleplay it accordingly. No one that had the attitude you describe has ever lasted an entire session in on of the groups I have played in (or GMd) because they could not get along with the party that they needed far more than the party needed the divine. Teamwork, even roleplayed, does not require some (in the general sense-->) jackass to try to dominate a group, and nothing is as satisfying as watching the arrogant fall, then doing everything they failed to do, without them.

    Unless your god is a god of arrogance, or expected that behavior from you anyway. A cleric that asks for shelter and offers his aid in return will likely get treated far better than the cleric that demands shelter in the name of some distant power and offers nothing in return. This is in the general sense anyway, specific campaign settings could change that.

    The point of all that is, you (again, general you, not specific you) are using RP as an excuse to be rude. That is never acceptable under any conditions.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 09-24-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Not everyone interprets that role as you do. Many would interpret communing with a higher power as a humbling experience, and roleplay it accordingly. No one that had the attitude you describe has ever lasted an entire session in on of the groups I have played in (or GMd) because they could not get along with the party that they needed far more than the party needed the divine. Teamwork, even roleplayed, does not require some (in the general sense-->) jackass to try to dominate a group, and nothing is as satisfying as watching the arrogant fall, then doing everything they failed to do, without them.
    Roles are easy . . .

    Divine: Hjeal meh!

    Arcane: Bjuff meh! (that includes hjaste).

    it's not that hard.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'd rather play with people smart enough not to gimp themselves with such lousy equipment.

    Now hjaste meh!
    Since when did DDO have smart players? No I mean really! Id say 1 out of every 3 people I have brought to DDO over the years stuck with it for any length of time, and that is indeed because they had the brains to figure out things fast on their own. those who even after getting off korthos and through the water works have to ask what effects are beneficial to wear, what stacks etc are pretty much eternal lost causes you cant ever help become better players.

    Some are born to dice chuck, and some are born to watch the dice be chucked and wonder why nothing they try works and blame the game.

  10. #50
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Since when did DDO have smart players? No I mean really! Id say 1 out of every 3 people I have brought to DDO over the years stuck with it for any length of time, and that is indeed because they had the brains to figure out things fast on their own. those who even after getting off korthos and through the water works have to ask what effects are beneficial to wear, what stacks etc are pretty much eternal lost causes you cant ever help become better players.

    Some are born to dice chuck, and some are born to watch the dice be chucked and wonder why nothing they try works and blame the game.

    I play with smart players all the time . . . when I solo

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I play with smart players all the time . . . when I solo
    I wish I did :/
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  12. #52
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I play with smart players all the time . . . when I solo
    Wow he just called Wyoh smarter than all of us. BURN Teh_Troll!

  13. #53
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I play with smart players all the time . . . when I solo
    This is almost sig worthy
    Matt Walsh:
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  14. #54
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    I do not care. Well timed haste clickies are available at that lvl. range by many players. And together with all options of running faster you don't need perma haste. But for possible long fights an extended haste is still nice.

    A divine who doesn't heal is as useful as a blow-up doll with no holes.
    Must...be...in sig.... Ah nay, just a lol for that. Nice one.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 09-24-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    never had a real RP session in your life then I take it. The best PnP games I ever played no one made a character that others had any idea of waht it was, where the old school rules of not letting other players know a thing that was on anothers character sheet. Where each had their own personal motivations and the DM expertly wove those into whatever adventure he had planned and adapting and even ignoring those plans if the various players seemed more motivated by those personal goals.
    You think RP means not helping anyone else? If so then it is you that hasnt experienced D&D the way it was meant to be experienced. In the DMG there are several pages written up about forced cooperation, how to make sure it happens, and what to do if it doesnt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Such groups are rarely together in play, one might be busy seducing a tavern wench to make a local asset and gain intel on the area, another might be browsing the local smithy for quality gear, another might be planning on robbing some random well dressed noble, and 2 others might be squaring off for a fight to the death after a completely in character argument grew into open hostility. Maybe and i mean just maybe they will all end up working together, or killing each other, but that is the best part of first adventures with fresh characters. The whole unknowable aspect of how the characters will interact not how well the players will cooperate.
    Theres no maybe about it, they are working together already. If youre defining "working together" as "being in the same room within 2 five foot squares away from eachother" then your definition of "working together" is completely incorrect to the nth degree. All you did was separate the party in expected non combat situations, and then defined being in the same room, common area, or close proximity as working together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    That is the disconnect pure gamers have here on DDO, there is the player and the character, and they are not the same being. No more then batman and bruce wayne are.
    Sounds like the disconnect is on your part, due to a narrow definition of what "working together" consists of. In your example, the characters are all working together for the common goal - save for the two people arguing, and this example is brought up a few times in the DMG, you know, one of the books you should really read before DMing. You didnt provide one example of someone needing direct aid or even indirect assistance, being refused outright by another party member, and that somehow being the correct way the situation should have played out.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #56
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    When I played D&D with my family or friends, not only were roles MUCH better defined than they ever are in a DDO group, we even planned our builds around each other. Because you weren't likely to get through a dungeon with two clerics and no wizard, or two thieves and no fighter, etc.

    Only in this game do people fool themselves into thinking they're playing anything remotely like D&D while saying things like "just zerg through the traps". Never known a single DM, ever, who would let you get away with that BS for long before you ended up paying for it.

    The main thing that makes the "experts" around here feel like such heroes is the almost complete lack of a death penalty -- which is most definitely NOT the case in P&P. Let's say Turbine added a 2% XP penalty each time you died -- as in, you die, 2% of your total XP is removed. Suddenly all these "no challenge" and "too easy" quests would become challenging again in a big hurry -- and teamwork would start to matter a lot more again. Personally, I'd love to see it.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 09-24-2013 at 01:57 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Not everyone interprets that role as you do. Many would interpret communing with a higher power as a humbling experience, and roleplay it accordingly. No one that had the attitude you describe has ever lasted an entire session in on of the groups I have played in (or GMd) because they could not get along with the party that they needed far more than the party needed the divine. Teamwork, even roleplayed, does not require some (in the general sense-->) jackass to try to dominate a group, and nothing is as satisfying as watching the arrogant fall, then doing everything they failed to do, without them.
    A DM would have to cheat against a well made and played NE cleric at low lvls to threaten them and not wipe the rest of the party. Likewise anyone lawful in the party will end up being owned by taht cleric simply by forcing vows of loyalty in return for receiving divine aid ( a very common theme in fantasy literature is the vow of loyatly for life saving aid, even many a barbarian would die before breaking such a vow traditionally)

    Likewise rogues ( if needed thanks to so many dieties who dabble in such skills and grant them to their followers) Or what will happen after that cleric makes his own ring of turning, which in the hands of a evil cleric who commands rather then turns will be able to control rather large groups of the low lvl undead so commonly thrown at players. And perhaps another doman that cleric will access will grant various powerful spells and innate abilities to make life even easier.

    No my friend in 3E+ only a cheater DM could threaten the cleric while not ****ing over the rest of the party. A DMs job is not to punish a player for being good, its his job to punish the shop keepers for trying to play adventurer.

    Lets take an even older 2nd ed adventure as a example. the classic return to the keep on the borderlands silver anniversary edition. This quest series is so full of undead, and sentient humanoids, any well made divine would devour it solo( and I have seen it done) while most other classes will simply be so squishy one good fight will see half of them dead. Virtually the whole party needs to be in DDOs terms a byoh self sufficient team of bad asses, or as soon as one dies( and someone will certainly die in almost any of the larger encounters) that like dominoes the rest of the party will fall.

    I once ran 3 players through it who all wanted to be, due to some amazing luck with their rolls, dark knights of tahkikis ( i was adapting it to dragonlance at the time) set during the age when good was definately not that good to be socially.

    Anyways, inspite being very well armed, armored, and one due to various RP bonuses during the course of play where about lvls 3, and 2 for the others when they came across a pack of goblins( I turned the koblds to goblins since the party was past lvl 1) One amazing triple 20 on one of the players( house rules but very common one used by many in my experience, one 20 is a crit, a second 20 in a row is instant KO, and a 3rd is instant death) left one of the lvl 2s dropped stone dead, the higher lvl one, most likely because the other living player was his little bro in RL, chose to fight a delaying action so the last could escape to senda report to their commander about the goblins apparently possessing a ninja killer among their ranks the two killed rolled up new toons, sadly their rolls where not so amazing, and even with a minor stat boost given to the player who nobly sacrificed himself, they ended up a pair of mercs being sent to aid the surviving knight. one a rogue the other a barbarian. They eventually met their end against the medusa in the minotaur maze when she caught the rogue trying to steal her jewelry box. She killed them all quite handedly with one gaze and a bad set of saving throws on the parties part.

    My point over all is that groups without divine aid and more importantly a WISE party member to help keep the party from doing something stupid, or at least have the sense to get out of harms way before it goes south so the party doesnt completely wipe and end the adventure. Because at least from my experience with RPGA tourney style play rules, as long as one party member survives the rest can always reroll and rejoin the adventure, a total party wipe means adventure fails. Hence its better to have one of those know it all stay alive ready for everything types in the party then not as its very unlikely that one will ever die. Might sacrifice the party but we all remember this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3tlxmK7Cg

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    When I played D&D with my family or friends, not only were roles MUCH better defined than they ever are in a DDO group, we even planned our builds around each other. Because you weren't likely to get through a dungeon with two clerics and no wizard, or two thieves and no fighter, etc.

    Only in this game do people fool themselves into thinking they're playing anything remotely like D&D while saying things like "just zerg through the traps". Never known a single DM, ever, who would let you get away with that **** for long before you ended up paying for it.

    The main thing that makes the "experts" around here feel like such heroes is the almost complete lack of a death penalty. Let's say Turbine added a 2% XP penalty each time you died -- as in, you die, 2% of your total XP is removed. Suddenly all these "no challenge" and "too easy" quests would become challenging again in a big hurry. Personally, I'd love to see it.
    That is not D&D. In fact its very against the rules layed down and revived in things like hackmaster 4E to never ever let another player know a thing about yours either prior to rolling it up, or after play begins. Planning characters around each other is effectively cheating to the highest degree. In hackmaster( which uses old school character grinder RPGA rules and the most common house rules beloved by real dice chuckers) if you let, and or tell another player so much as one detail from your sheet, you have just suicided your character because the DM can and will take it and tear it up and then burn it to ash right in front of you.

    This is ofcourse why you and I rarely ever get along on the forums, you played family friendly wannabe D&D not real D&D which is a no holds barred cutthroat enviroment where the last man standing is always the hero, even when he is a villain. And where those who are sacrificed to reach that end, are not done so lightly but will be used all the same.

    Teflon Billy is a hero, Knuckles and El Rav are pawns. It doesnt mean Brian doesnt love the shiite out of dave and bob, but when your at the table your not brian, dave, and bob, your Teflon Billy, Knuckles, and El Rav. Teflon is the mightiest of wizards for exactly the reasons so many carebears hate on others here for on the forums.

    Id daddy was your DM, and mom, and bro and sis where your party, you didnt play D&D, not even close.

  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    When I played D&D with my family or friends, not only were roles MUCH better defined than they ever are in a DDO group, we even planned our builds around each other. Because you weren't likely to get through a dungeon with two clerics and no wizard, or two thieves and no fighter, etc.

    Only in this game do people fool themselves into thinking they're playing anything remotely like D&D while saying things like "just zerg through the traps". Never known a single DM, ever, who would let you get away with that BS for long before you ended up paying for it.

    The main thing that makes the "experts" around here feel like such heroes is the almost complete lack of a death penalty -- which is most definitely NOT the case in P&P. Let's say Turbine added a 2% XP penalty each time you died -- as in, you die, 2% of your total XP is removed. Suddenly all these "no challenge" and "too easy" quests would become challenging again in a big hurry -- and teamwork would start to matter a lot more again. Personally, I'd love to see it.
    This game used to have a death penalty that affected XP, and the howling by the forumites to remove it back then was as rediculous as it was frequent.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Lol yeah, I had a first-in-a-long-time pug recently too. Mine was an AA ranger who joined my BYOH (I don't use the acronym in the lfm, I type it out for clarity) lfm and ran around away from the party dying and typing into chat, "HJEAL ME" Been a long time since I saw that outside of a joke. History repeats I guess. I would have healed him if I had any idea where he was too, despite my irritation at his lack of literacy.
    i dont think anyone expects to be healed outside of raids anymore. not saying its right,but iv come to NEVER expect a healer to heal people in pugs,they just dont do it. and i think just about everyne knows that by now. 99% of the game is BYOH for me,lol.

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