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  1. #1
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Default Heroic Quest Scaling

    I have some issues with heroic quest scaling. I don't believe it is conducive to pugging.

    First, me: I love to pug. I rarely solo. I love pugging with people who are at my level or better, but I also do teaching runs and have no issues with people new to the game. I don't care if anyone dies, and I sometimes die, too. In most pugs, probably 90% of them that I join, I kill between 70-90% of the mobs, perhaps b/c I play arties and sorcs. When I don't kill that many, it's b/c I'm trying to leave some for the other players - and I just zerg ahead.

    So I tried soloing some heroic elite stuff. Wow! I completed it faster than in pugs - mobs dropped ridiculously fast. I had no idea that scaling favored solo players.

    All I can say is: bad!

    Many of the forumites here are uber players (I probably can't keep up) and they solo b/c it's faster to level, faster to TR if you're on the TR train.

    So I was wondering...maybe elites should actually be elite and not scale? Maybe they should already be scaled for 4 or 6 players or whatever and not dropped down when you solo it?

    Yes, yes, I'll keep pugging - I can already hear the argument "if pugging is what you enjoy, keep doing it." Sure, no problem. The thing is, I like pugs, and I'm worried about not having enough. Why is scaling designed to solidify the advantage "elite" players have by promoting solo play for those who just want quests done asap?

    I imagine I'll anger soloists who want fast runs. Sorry. I'm interested in your thoughts, though.

  2. #2
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    IIRC, it's been that way for a while now. And why single out heroic, don't epics scale similarly now?

  3. #3
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    But if I don't want to be in a group (bad mood for example) but still want to play DDO, I need to do what was designed for a full party.. with 1/6 of the potential manpower?

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    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    But if I don't want to be in a group (bad mood for example) but still want to play DDO, I need to do what was designed for a full party.. with 1/6 of the potential manpower?
    Yes. Or at least make the mobs hit as hard as for 6 man but give them less hp.

  5. #5
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Yes. Or at least make the mobs hit as hard as for 6 man but give them less hp.
    Because that's fair.

    Because I've spent 64% of my life being depressed (suicidal, pick your poison), and have a serious emotional instability, but love DDO and love building toons...
    I should be punished for having the audacity to play DDO while in the "bad phase", as I think of it?

    Or should I group with people and make them miserable?

  6. #6
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    OP, think that newbies soloing also and even more than the veterans.

    The problem with pugs is not scaling. DDO is not newbie friendly.
    When you are a newbie you find few veterans friendly. My last heroic pug was with my second toon. So I was pretty newbie and as my toon was level 13 and other players don’t want me in tempest spine because I broke their BB I organized my own pug. Three quarters of an hour meeting people and when a veteran asked me by the star because he knew better the raid, I gave it willingly. Then he out me from my own raid because my toon broke the BB. A raid organized for me!!! If he wanted BB he could have organized his own raid. His response to my complaint, I know, it's sucks!

    It was the last time I did a heroic pug. That was my last bad experience but unfortunately it was not the first either. I learned to soloing and learned to level my TR toons alone, found a friendly guild, and I played alone or with them. Even today I join pugs only for epic raids.

    It's not the scaling. I think that the problem of pugs are the players. As newbie you receive more help in this forums than in game. And if you have learned to master the game alone--- why pug after?
    Last edited by Iriale; 09-24-2013 at 07:16 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    But if I don't want to be in a group (bad mood for example) but still want to play DDO, I need to do what was designed for a full party.. with 1/6 of the potential manpower?
    I for one think that elites should be challenging in ways other than requiring you to bring a trap monkey. Just about everything except the ridiculously bloated trap dmg on elite is trivial. This would also create proper challenge in elite quests, which is present in so few quests currently.

    Keep in mind that one would still be able to solo hard as usual with the old scaling system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Because I've spent 64% of my life being depressed (suicidal, pick your poison), and have a serious emotional instability, but love DDO and love building toons...
    I should be punished for having the audacity to play DDO while in the "bad phase", as I think of it?
    For one, staying lonely and sociopathic will do nothing to help the depression. Interaction will.

    Second, I'm not sure why people on this forum seem to think that there's no difficulty other than elite in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Not is the scaling. I think that the problem of pugs are the players. As newbie you receive more help in this forums than in game. And if you have learned to master the game alone--- why pug after?
    I think OP's point is that mastering the highest difficulty shouldn't be as easy as it is. I'm not a powergamer, and I wholeheartedly agree. Difficulty should also come from somewhere other than requiring every solo build to have anti-trap skills.

    This will not affect pugs, and it will make the vets who like challenge happier. It WILL also **** off vet wannabes and "leet zergjers", but they deserve it.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 09-24-2013 at 07:19 AM.

  8. #8
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    I thought elite didnt scale for heroics. I rarely notice since I rarely solo.

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    I thought elite didnt scale for heroics. I rarely notice since I rarely solo.
    At least years ago a dev said it's not suppossed to, however I think that has never actually been the case so it may be that scaling is just one more bug.

  10. #10
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Heroic Elite, at one time, was static. Meaning it didn't scale. I actually liked it that way...
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  11. #11
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I think OP's point is that mastering the highest difficulty shouldn't be as easy as it is. I'm not a powergamer, and I wholeheartedly agree. Difficulty should also come from somewhere other than requiring every solo build to have anti-trap skills.

    This will not affect pugs, and it will make the vets who like challenge happier. It WILL also **** off vet wannabes and "leet zergjers", but they deserve it.
    The OP point is that is easier solo than in party... and he is concerned because there is few pugs. I just pointed out that I don’t think that the difficulty in finding pugs lies in the difficulty of completing the quest in a party. I think is the attitude of the players and the obsession with keeping the BB, and because many people prefer not cooperate but make the run as fast as possible. My impression with many pugs as a newbie was that people were more interested in the xp/min than in play together.

    Of course, I found a few players who are wonderful, some of which now are good friends. But I doubt very much that the current problem is for game mechanics. In my opinion the problem lies in the people.

    But it's just an opinion, of course. Not saying it's the absolute truth.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    I thought elite didnt scale for heroics. I rarely notice since I rarely solo.
    it scales for sure, tested on a LOD run heroic elite solo and heroic elite pug...

  13. #13
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I for one think that elites should be challenging in ways other than requiring you to bring a trap monkey. Just about everything except the ridiculously bloated trap dmg on elite is trivial. This would also create proper challenge in elite quests, which is present in so few quests currently.

    Keep in mind that one would still be able to solo hard as usual with the old scaling system.
    Traps aren't a challenge, unless it's 4am and I'm physically upset - yes, that happens. In general, trap monkeys make me wish I brought a cleric hire so I can have more easy buttons.

    I assure you, nothing in elite is a challenge as is in a group. Soloing, while easier, shouldn't meet the same difficulty as a full party.

    For one, staying lonely and sociopathic will do nothing to help the depression. Interaction will.
    I try to have friends. Most of the time I succeed. I recently met a really cute guy, having fun chatting with him - he's gay, so things might work.

    Personally, I'm not anti-social. But if I'm not in the mood to group, be social or deal with other people in general, I shouldn't be punished for it.
    Second, I'm not sure why people on this forum seem to think that there's no difficulty other than elite in the game.
    Because elite is the only thing offering a ghost of a challenge. I would rather leave DDO than play hard.
    Heroic hard is extremely dull.
    Epic hard is a joke.
    I think OP's point is that mastering the highest difficulty shouldn't be as easy as it is. I'm not a powergamer, and I wholeheartedly agree. Difficulty should also come from somewhere other than requiring every solo build to have anti-trap skills.

    This will not affect pugs, and it will make the vets who like challenge happier. It WILL also **** off vet wannabes and "leet zergjers", but they deserve it.
    If you made the highest difficulty hard, many new players would be upset - surely they should be able to do what 6 year vets can do! (Or even a nub like me.)

    It will affect PUGs. Most LFMs I make and/or join are shortmanned, either as a duo or with three people, because we don't like waiting for a full party. I, and they, would rather have some fun. (Most of the time.)

    I'm not sure if you're calling me a vet wannabe or a leet zergjer (does that really need a j?). I hope not.
    I claim to be neither. If I'm in a VERY good mood, I'll refer to myself as an okay player. Lately people have been referring to me as a good player, but I don't think I will (nor can) believe them.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    But if I don't want to be in a group (bad mood for example) but still want to play DDO, I need to do what was designed for a full party.. with 1/6 of the potential manpower?
    no, you don't need to, you can play on hard or normal where scaling would still exist in this given scenario

  15. #15
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garlor View Post
    no, you don't need to, you can play on hard or normal where scaling would still exist in this given scenario
    I don't know if that's an insult or not...
    I cannot name one player that cannot solo heroic normal/hard with their eyes shut (not including a certain guild on Thelanis).

    So, I should either be bored, punished or forced to group with people against my will - all because of something outside of my control? Psh.
    Last edited by Soulfurnace; 09-24-2013 at 08:06 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I have some issues with heroic quest scaling. I don't believe it is conducive to pugging.

    First, me: I love to pug. I rarely solo. I love pugging with people who are at my level or better, but I also do teaching runs and have no issues with people new to the game. I don't care if anyone dies, and I sometimes die, too. In most pugs, probably 90% of them that I join, I kill between 70-90% of the mobs, perhaps b/c I play arties and sorcs. When I don't kill that many, it's b/c I'm trying to leave some for the other players - and I just zerg ahead.

    So I tried soloing some heroic elite stuff. Wow! I completed it faster than in pugs - mobs dropped ridiculously fast. I had no idea that scaling favored solo players.

    All I can say is: bad!

    Many of the forumites here are uber players (I probably can't keep up) and they solo b/c it's faster to level, faster to TR if you're on the TR train.

    So I was wondering...maybe elites should actually be elite and not scale? Maybe they should already be scaled for 4 or 6 players or whatever and not dropped down when you solo it?

    Yes, yes, I'll keep pugging - I can already hear the argument "if pugging is what you enjoy, keep doing it." Sure, no problem. The thing is, I like pugs, and I'm worried about not having enough. Why is scaling designed to solidify the advantage "elite" players have by promoting solo play for those who just want quests done asap?

    I imagine I'll anger soloists who want fast runs. Sorry. I'm interested in your thoughts, though.
    I'd hate that myself only because most of my guildies are not playing anymore (hopefully after their breaks they'll start to filter back in but 80% of my guild became inactive when the big changes hit). Or even if there was a vibrant LFM panel....most nights there are either none or just a couple of LFM's up at whatever level I want to play. VERY slow LFM, guild numbers falling off the cliff...no definitely not a good time to make it harder to short man or solo.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    The OP point is that is easier solo than in party... and he is concerned because there is few pugs. [snip]
    IMO, two sides of the same coin. Agreed with the rest of the post, but that's not something devs can work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Traps aren't a challenge, unless it's 4am and I'm physically upset - yes, that happens. In general, trap monkeys make me wish I brought a cleric hire so I can have more easy buttons.
    Dunno about you, I can hardly imagine doing quests like Redfang with its evil poison room or HiPS with the blade traps on elite at level w/o trapper and without evasion. Like I said, I'm not a powergamer though. And I'd much rather see the actual mobs, puzzles or quest design provide the challenge - which is way too rare for my taste.

    Personally, I'm not anti-social. But if I'm not in the mood to group, be social or deal with other people in general, I shouldn't be punished for it.

    Because elite is the only thing offering a ghost of a challenge. I would rather leave DDO than play hard.
    So you think hard is dull, elite is too easy, but upping elite difficulty on solo is bad? I fail to see your logic.

    It will affect PUGs. Most LFMs I make and/or join are shortmanned, either as a duo or with three people, because we don't like waiting for a full party. I, and they, would rather have some fun. (Most of the time.)
    Well, the OP did suggest to balance for "4-6 players". 4 is, IMO, the reasonable average number here - and also, IIRC, what PnP and games close to PnP D&D use for CR calculation. That's 2 people with hires each or 3 people with one pocket healer, balanced appropriately.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I'd hate that myself only because most of my guildies are not playing anymore (hopefully after their breaks they'll start to filter back in but 80% of my guild became inactive when the big changes hit). Or even if there was a vibrant LFM panel....most nights there are either none or just a couple of LFM's up at whatever level I want to play. VERY slow LFM, guild numbers falling off the cliff...no definitely not a good time to make it harder to short man or solo.
    That's just a sign that Turbine might need to merge some of the less populated servers.

  18. #18
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Dunno about you, I can hardly imagine doing quests like Redfang with its evil poison room or HiPS with the blade traps on elite at level w/o trapper and without evasion. Like I said, I'm not a powergamer though. And I'd much rather see the actual mobs, puzzles or quest design provide the challenge - which is way too rare for my taste.
    HiPS... I'm confused, which was the hard traps again? (Serious question. Do you mean the water part? Or...?)

    So you think hard is dull, elite is too easy, but upping elite difficulty on solo is bad? I fail to see your logic.
    Elite in a full party, as I said, is a joke.
    As it stands, I've solo'd most elite quests, at level, without much of an issue - some easier. I do not do that with gimpbots, because.. well.. they're gimped.
    All upping elite difficulty will do is slow down TR times. Sounds like an annoying inconvenience, hence painful, hence a punishment.
    Well, the OP did suggest to balance for "4-6 players". 4 is, IMO, the reasonable average number here - and also, IIRC, what PnP and games close to PnP D&D use for CR calculation. That's 2 people with hires each or 3 people with one pocket healer, balanced appropriately.
    Obligatory "DDO is not pnp!".

    I don't know why two people, nor three, would drop hires. Ewies.
    But again, for when I want to solo, I'm required to do 4* the work of you in a balanced party? Again, seems unfair. I'm not asking for me to have 1/4 party scaling - but 1/2 of full party scaling would be fine.

  19. #19
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    So I tried soloing some heroic elite stuff. Wow! I completed it faster than in pugs - mobs dropped ridiculously fast. I had no idea that scaling favored solo players.

    All I can say is: bad!
    I am guilty of being one of those power players who prefer soloing through the early levels rather than finding a group and explaining where every quest is and helping them survive it. not that I mind helping new players out, but in the early levels it seems I spend more time hand-holding than I do actually running the quests, so I just don't bother with it.

    having said that, even with scaling being what it is, it's much MUCH faster to complete a quest with a group of players who are on your skill level than it is to go solo it.
    this sentence holds true regardless of what your skill level is.

    so the real issue that you're having, as I see it, is not so much that scaling makes it easier for you to solo, but rather that the people you've been grouping with make it easier for you to solo.
    and therein lies the rub.

  20. #20
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I have some issues with heroic quest scaling. I don't believe it is conducive to pugging.

    First, me: I love to pug. I rarely solo. I love pugging with people who are at my level or better, but I also do teaching runs and have no issues with people new to the game. I don't care if anyone dies, and I sometimes die, too. In most pugs, probably 90% of them that I join, I kill between 70-90% of the mobs, perhaps b/c I play arties and sorcs. When I don't kill that many, it's b/c I'm trying to leave some for the other players - and I just zerg ahead.

    So I tried soloing some heroic elite stuff. Wow! I completed it faster than in pugs - mobs dropped ridiculously fast. I had no idea that scaling favored solo players.

    All I can say is: bad!

    Many of the forumites here are uber players (I probably can't keep up) and they solo b/c it's faster to level, faster to TR if you're on the TR train.

    So I was wondering...maybe elites should actually be elite and not scale? Maybe they should already be scaled for 4 or 6 players or whatever and not dropped down when you solo it?

    Yes, yes, I'll keep pugging - I can already hear the argument "if pugging is what you enjoy, keep doing it." Sure, no problem. The thing is, I like pugs, and I'm worried about not having enough. Why is scaling designed to solidify the advantage "elite" players have by promoting solo play for those who just want quests done asap?

    I imagine I'll anger soloists who want fast runs. Sorry. I'm interested in your thoughts, though.
    This isn't anything new. Its been like this for a long time now. Its one of the bigger reasons why less lfms since its easier to solo than add to the scaling with more players. Elite should not be scaling like that since it is supposed to be the toughest difficulty and all.

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