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  1. #41
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I told to SirValentine that it wasn't not WAI in his thread. He didn't believe me anyway.

    If you want a proof: it is an EQUIPMENT bonus, like every other DC boosting item. SAME BONUSES DON'T STACK. It wasn't WAI, period.
    It will not be WAI but it was good for the game. The melees have +10 bonus to their specific tactics DC and +5 extraordinary for all tactics that stack. There are not nothing comparable for spells. The bonuses are lower for spells, and school focus does not stack with spell focus- this does spell focus useless.

    It would not be WAI, but it has been a bad and unfortunate change.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  2. #42
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Yep, no longer stacking. It might only be 2 DC, but that is 2 DC that was needed to give a viable chance (after debuffs) to hit EE fort saves. A purely focused enchantment build should be viable, but now it seems that you are either a Shiradi, or a hold bot (heck your buffs aren't even that useful anymore).
    Oh that. Can't believe people are whining about this. You look at it and it screams "not intended". Not sure why anyone expected this to not be changed in the near future. Same with dodge item stacking (anyone whine about that yet?).

    Sure, DC casting should be balanced a bit better to game content, or better yet reimagined as such, but this is NOT the way to do it.

  3. #43
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Oh that. Can't believe people are whining about this. You look at it and it screams "not intended". Not sure why anyone expected this to not be changed in the near future. Same with dodge item stacking (anyone whine about that yet?).

    Sure, DC casting should be balanced a bit better to game content, or better yet reimagined as such, but this is NOT the way to do it.
    Why not? It's as simple as changing the spell focus bonus type of equipment to extraordinary. All clear and simple, and there is something comparable for melee tactics.

    Well, would be best that devs build EE mobs with reasonable STs, but after that, stacking spell and school focus was a reasonable and logical change. And needed too—spell focus is useless without stacking because you only need the (higher) bonus of school focus. If don’t stack is better eliminate the spell focus items.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  4. #44
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Oh that. Can't believe people are whining about this. You look at it and it screams "not intended". Not sure why anyone expected this to not be changed in the near future. Same with dodge item stacking (anyone whine about that yet?).

    Sure, DC casting should be balanced a bit better to game content, or better yet reimagined as such, but this is NOT the way to do it.
    What would you suggest then as a viable alternative?

    The suggestion of the recent past by folks who played the classes was to re calculate the fortitude saves as opposed to going with CR times (insert multiplier here) plus class restriction additive = equals static save. Instead the development team went the route of adding more bloat via gear with higher bonuses. It's pretty clear by this time that in the content that's been in question, epic elite, this is ineffective.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    What would you suggest then as a viable alternative?

    The suggestion of the recent past by folks who played the classes was to re calculate the fortitude saves as opposed to going with CR times (insert multiplier here) plus class restriction additive = equals static save. Instead the development team went the route of adding more bloat via gear with higher bonuses. It's pretty clear by this time that in the content that's been in question, epic elite, this is ineffective.
    Hey, I'm not a number cruncher to provide good alternatives here. Still, can speak conceptually. Static saves are reasonable since, if I'm not mistaken, that's how PnP D&D does it. PnP doesn't scale however, so there's that.

    They could also randomize the saves and expand the range, giving players a chance to land a spell and have higher DCs increase that chance. Say, something like half CR times XdY rather than CR times multi. So, introduce a luck element for those who lack the gear.

    Gear bloat is bad 99% of the time.

  6. #46
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Apples to apples is boring, it allows for obvious contrasts in quality. Now apples to grapefruits, that's much better territory for claiming opinions as facts and using hyperbole to support circular arguments <--and that's where the entertainment is
    Now that is some trolling zen.

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  7. #47
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    You do. And you specify that this is what you are doing rather than imply that a 75 DC is a common or easily attainable number for monks.
    Maxed Wiazrd is about 65-66 Necro DC.

    Maxed monk approaches 80, 75 isn't even maxed.

    That's the comparison you need to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I like how you throw around the word "gimp." It makes you sound so uber.
    All words make me sound ubber.

  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    A couple past lives, a specific race, a specific level split, a specific stance, grandmaster destiny...
    In other words . . . putting in a minimal amount of effort NOT to be gimped.

    Are you that lazy? I mean I expect this out of most monks playing the monk easy-button pay2win class.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Not anymore.



    Says who? Dev quote, please.

    Let's see:
    - They changed the name
    - They changed the description to remove the "does not stack" text
    - They brought out lootgen +5 DC items

    I don't think it was any kind of stretch to think that they were maybe deliberately keeping a piece of raid loot from the highest level raid in the game somewhat relevant instead of completely useless.

    Even now, I think it's just as likely that the nerf was a bug as making it stack was.
    But tatical items are EXCEPTIONAL combat mastery and by default in this game exceptional stacks. Spell focus mastery (now just spell focus) is not exceptional and shouldnt stack. But dont get me wrong, I am sad with it my main is a pm too.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    WarningThen U19.2 came along, and for some reason, you guys thought that DC's casters were too uber or something (even though it would take 2 enervations or an energy drain before we cast our FoD for us to compete with a monk), and decided to nerf Spell Mastery back to the pre-U19 days. Its not like it is prevalent, there are only 4 items in the game with the ability, two of which are raid items -- but oh no, a wizard having a DC that is only 7 points below that of a monk, god the world is going to come to an end.
    First, we both knows that spell mastery was never meant to stack. So if the issue is +2 more DC ontop of whatever else you got, I'm sure the answer will be ETR. I know; why should you have to wait right - but the reality is that Turbine will always move very quickly to fix things that is broken in our favor and wait till next update for things for other things. Like earth Savant capstone. Bugged it before patch 2, still broken. Sucks, since I don't want to use a broken enhancement even if it's only +2 in Charisma.

    Or now that my cannith challenge elemental bow is broken. I don't have pinion on my Ranger so when I bow, I use that. It's good. But now it fires but nothing else happens. I can still use one of the lesser bows, but this kind of sucks. Guess what - I'm going to have to wait until u20 for that to (maybe) be fixed. So my other recourse is to pull pinion instead.

    The short is; broken stuff should be fixed, even if it's a temporary benefit and then something else should be done to fix to make all type of play styles valid.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Are you playing the "I can't think for myself, so I need a developer statement" card again? It gets old.
    No, I'm playing the
    "Based on the evidence, I think it's this way, so if you want to convince me it's the opposite, you need something more than just declaring that your way is 'clear' or 'obvious'; something definitive, like, say, a dev quote. Otherwise, you're just one more guy with a differing opinion, and one that I think is wrong."
    card.

    I don't know why it's so hard for people to even admit those with differing opinions might have a point. Or why they think asking for a definitive answer on an unclear point is stupid.

    I see much more of a lack of thinking from people who are unable to even entertain other possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I told to SirValentine that it wasn't not WAI in his thread. He didn't believe me anyway.
    Yup, and I still don't. Based on what I've seen, I feel it WAS WAI, and it's not WAI NOW. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise. Show me the dev quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    we both knows that spell mastery was never meant to stack
    I don't know that.

  12. #52
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Random thought, but could a DC casting wizard fit in cleave and great cleave? Then they could cleave, cleave, switch weapon, wail. With the right stuff on a two-hander you could potentially get quite a bit of free debuffing from that.
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  13. #53
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Random thought, but could a DC casting wizard fit in cleave and great cleave? Then they could cleave, cleave, switch weapon, wail. With the right stuff on a two-hander you could potentially get quite a bit of free debuffing from that.
    That'd be 3 feats and nearly impossible, realistically if you want to debuff yourself I'd say a repeater is probably best with melee style debuffs and then single target enervation fod etc. Still not sure it'd be worth it.

  14. #54
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    No, I'm playing the
    "Based on the evidence, I think it's this way, so if you want to convince me it's the opposite, you need something more than just declaring that your way is 'clear' or 'obvious'; something definitive, like, say, a dev quote. Otherwise, you're just one more guy with a differing opinion, and one that I think is wrong."
    card.
    When the game has always worked a certain way, then something accidentally starts stacking briefly until it gets fixed again, someone always tries to play that card, and no one ever believes it for a second.

    When something has always worked a certain way, then it briefly changes before going back to the way it has always been, those events themselves point to the stacking being unintended.

    I am of the opinion that a dev quote would be needed to believe a change from the way it has always been is WAI, rather than it being needed for it going back to the way it has always been.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That'd be 3 feats and nearly impossible, realistically if you want to debuff yourself I'd say a repeater is probably best with melee style debuffs and then single target enervation fod etc. Still not sure it'd be worth it.
    Oh hadn't even thought of a repeater lol, and I have a ton of them banked... should have occurred to me first thing. You could also maybe get in some AA, though not as a drow, and use the many debuffs they got. Incidentally an AA would also get you tons of extra temp SP to reduce the strain on your blue bar. Lots of things to try before I give up on DC casting entirely. Thanks!
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  16. #56
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Warning: Rant Below (commentary concerns EE content and recent changes to DC casting)

    Thank you for letting me enjoy DC casting for at least a month, now I guess it is time to put him back on the shelf and go back to playing my Rogue (w/ monk splash), or my Fighter (w/ monk splash), or maybe I should just TR the wizard into a pure monk, and be a real DC caster... err I mean puncher
    Now I do not think purish monks and unarmed combat are that OP. Having run with some I would say they are pretty balanced. Splash monks on the other hand are almost certainly OP lol just thinking about all the builds and build types where a monk splash of between 1 and 12 monk levels are used which is definitely silly sauce.

    All you discuss in your OP for DC casting is enchantment and necromancy which to me is the problem right there. We need a bump to transmutation, illusion, etc schools. The new frog spell (wisdom based) which is transmutation is the sort of thing they need to add. I would love to see a whole bunch of transmutation and illusion spells and abjuration while they are at it. The spell weird which should be relatively easy for the devs to add and I have no idea why they have not for example.
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  17. #57
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Now I do not think purish monks and unarmed combat are that OP. Having run with some I would say they are pretty balanced. Splash monks on the other hand are almost certainly OP lol just thinking about all the builds and build types where a monk splash of between 1 and 12 monk levels are used which is definitely silly sauce.
    Running EE's last night in a group full of splash-fighters we're all laughing at how fun and OP they are right now. When the inevitable nerfs come we will not be shocked.

    But no, 75 DC melee insta-kills that Monk 15/X 5 can get is ridiculous.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    All you discuss in your OP for DC casting is enchantment and necromancy which to me is the problem right there. We need a bump to transmutation, illusion, etc schools. The new frog spell (wisdom based) which is transmutation is the sort of thing they need to add. I would love to see a whole bunch of transmutation and illusion spells and abjuration while they are at it. The spell weird which should be relatively easy for the devs to add and I have no idea why they have not for example.
    I would love to see more spells, but it is not like I am holding my breath, the odds of seeing new spells added to the game is pretty low.

    On to your point that I didn't mention the rest of the schools, those also lost 2dc, and when possible I tried to use them as much as possible. The problem is that there are not too many useful spells DC spells outside of Enchantment and Necro (evocation if you plan on nuking, but good luck with that). For Conjuration we have Web, which is awesome, and Trap the Soul, which would be awesome if it didn't have the HD cap. For transmutation you have Flesh to Stone, however; that also targets fortitude saves, and isn't as effective, nor can you get Transmutation as high as necromancy -- meaning that in most cases you are better off throwing a FoD. For Illusion, there is PK, which is fun (and I use it), but the 2 save mechanic makes it even more unreliable.

    There are lots of cool spells of those schools in PnP, but I am not counting on seeing any of those out of Turbine anytime soon.

  19. #59
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    When the game has always worked a certain way, then something accidentally starts stacking briefly until it gets fixed again, someone always tries to play that card, and no one ever believes it for a second.

    When something has always worked a certain way, then it briefly changes before going back to the way it has always been, those events themselves point to the stacking being unintended.

    I am of the opinion that a dev quote would be needed to believe a change from the way it has always been is WAI, rather than it being needed for it going back to the way it has always been.
    How can you even say this? You should consider all the options! I mean, it's ultra super probable that they purposely changed it to stack and by accident changed it back the way it was. Isn't it?

    You can't rule out it was a gnome or fairy that changed it back, we need a dev statement! Or was it divine intervention? Dev statement needed for sure!
    Last edited by Forzah; 09-24-2013 at 03:02 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    totally agree.. when i rebuild my fvs i don't even care to pick up a single spell that require dc.. wisdom is now a dump stats.. ill either splash heavily into monk or be a pure heal bot... this game is not longer what it use to be... in the old days we don't see stuff with near million of health... god...what have this world come to..

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