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  1. #21
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    DC 75 stuns/instakills are far from the norm for monks. I can do it on mine, but for me it took a couple fighter past lives, getting tactics from being a dorf, getting tactics from 2 fighter levels, and being a max wisdom monk in water stance (which kills PRR and hurts DPS, btw). You are not the first person to exaggerate this information. These forums are like a bad game of telephone.
    SO what? You compare max to max not a max wizard to a gimp monk.

  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    You won't like to hear this, and others also won't like it, but I think combat in this game is more fun when DC casters cannot quickly insta kill mobs over and over.

    I'm better you don't play a DC caster at all. It was FAR from god-mode in the high-level EEs.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellsien View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what about the ability to decrease fortitude available on weapons? I remember back when it was all-wounding/puncturing and cloudkills as a way to work together as a party. Is teamwork from melees using fort-reduction (sundering weapons) plus DC casters too slow?

    (This is an honest question. If it is, then that seems to say something about power-creep.)
    It is not that Melee's couldn't level drain/sunders on mobs so the saves are low enough for the DC caster to land the spells, but why should/would they. If the caster needs that type of assistance, then the melee's are better off without the caster, as they have already done most of the work (and after a few level drains, their dps will be a lot more effective in killing the mob then the caster wasting sp to do it).

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    DC 75 stuns/instakills are far from the norm for monks. I can do it on mine, but for me it took a couple fighter past lives, getting tactics from being a dorf, getting tactics from 2 fighter levels, and being a max wisdom monk in water stance (which kills PRR and hurts DPS, btw). You are not the first person to exaggerate this information. These forums are like a bad game of telephone.

    Spell Mastery items didn't stack with my enchantment gear before 19.2, although they did stack with necro.
    I agree that spell mastery items should absolutely stack with specific spell school bonuses. The DC's need the boost and spell mastery items are useless if they don't stack.
    I didn't say it was easy (I have done the math on QP). It instead is in line with what it takes to get to a (now) 66DC caster. Past lives, top end gear, the right race, 3 epic intelligence feats, 6 intelligence points in the right ED, 3 intelligence epic twists. I was okay with a 68 dc (effective 73 with enveration), but with the change the DC's move them just outside the range of viability.

    I am not asking for a nerf to anything, I am just annoyed that the dev's decided to stealth nerf the DC caster back to uselessness in top end EE content.
    Last edited by Andoris; 09-24-2013 at 12:02 AM.

  5. #25
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    SO what? You compare max to max not a max wizard to a gimp monk.
    Apples to apples is boring, it allows for obvious contrasts in quality. Now apples to grapefruits, that's much better territory for claiming opinions as facts and using hyperbole to support circular arguments <--and that's where the entertainment is
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    You won't like to hear this, and others also won't like it, but I think combat in this game is more fun when DC casters cannot quickly insta kill mobs over and over.

    I personally would prefer both challenging DCs AND cool down limits on the recast of insta kills. The cool down limits power so that combat has challenge at all levels.
    I am not asking for pre-MotU wizards. Yes, I played one then, and yes they were OP. Prior to 19.2 the DC's were challenging and imo balanced at the highest levels of play. If you completely maximized out your DC's, used debuffs, and targeted the weak save you landed your spells about 80% of the time.

    I guess I don't see that as OP, YMMV.

  7. #27
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    It is not that Melee's couldn't level drain/sunders on mobs so the saves are low enough for the DC caster to land the spells, but why should/would they. If the caster needs that type of assistance, then the melee's are better off without the caster, as they have already done most of the work (and after a few level drains, their dps will be a lot more effective in killing the mob then the caster wasting sp to do it).
    Interesting, sounds like the same line of thinking that has casters preferring insta-kills & nuking to CC: if the melees need assistance, the casters better off without them... Teamwork? That's for suckers...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #28
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    SO what? You compare max to max not a max wizard to a gimp monk.
    You do. And you specify that this is what you are doing rather than imply that a 75 DC is a common or easily attainable number for monks.

    I like how you throw around the word "gimp." It makes you sound so uber.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Interesting, sounds like the same line of thinking that has casters preferring insta-kills & nuking to CC: if the melees need assistance, the casters better off without them... Teamwork? That's for suckers...
    Nuking? I can't think of the last time I threw a damage dealing spell in EE, other than maybe a dot to speed up a boss fight. I would be out of SP in no time if I tried to chew through that many hp with direct damage spell. I do throw necrotic ray (which is really just used for the level drain effect most of the time), but thats really about it. SP is typically spent on holds, and insta-killing mobs (Circle and Wail in the center of the action and FoD on the fringes). Throwing a FoD at a mob that was just level drained into nothingness by the melee's is just a waste of SP.

    I am all for Teamwork, but I also believe in pulling your own weight. If my caster can't pull his own weight, I am going to shelve him and bring a toon that can. That being said, I will likely end up changing him to into a hold bot, for those times when I want to play my caster. It is just said that the result of this change is to make him completely one-dimensional.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Trouble is that DC spells pretty much already completely obviate non EE content if you have a caster in the group... no point in doing 500 melee damage twice to a MOB that dies from a FoD 1 second later, with 1500 hit points still... pointless to waste nuking mana on that mob too... You end up running a quest and the Arcane has 50 kills to the nearest melee's 15. Obviously you can see how this is unfun for anyone not the caster.

    Yes some EE's are over the top by about 3 or 4 DC, but unless you want nuking casters to argue with you and turn your thread into a you vs them discussion drop the nuking is easy compered to DC casting stuff.
    This is why the delta between EH and EE mob saves should be of the order 3-8, not the present 10-25.

    But that would require actually designing monster stats intelligently, rather than the current method of "Design one Epic mob. Change its CR to 60% of base on EN, 85% on EH and 125% on EE. Then derive all other stats from the CR."

    This is, of course, something people have been asking for since MOTU closed beta.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Eistander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    This is why the delta between EH and EE mob saves should be of the order 3-8, not the present 10-25.

    But that would require actually designing monster stats intelligently, rather than the current method of "Design one Epic mob. Change its CR to 60% of base on EN, 85% on EH and 125% on EE. Then derive all other stats from the CR."

    This is, of course, something people have been asking for since MOTU closed beta.
    *Glances at the Lords of Dust chain, glazing over what was mentioned and settles on the Epic Storm Horns*

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  12. #32
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    DC 75 stuns/instakills are far from the norm for monks. I can do it on mine, but for me it took a couple fighter past lives, getting tactics from being a dorf, getting tactics from 2 fighter levels, and being a max wisdom monk in water stance (which kills PRR and hurts DPS, btw). You are not the first person to exaggerate this information. These forums are like a bad game of telephone.

    Spell Mastery items didn't stack with my enchantment gear before 19.2, although they did stack with necro.
    I agree that spell mastery items should absolutely stack with specific spell school bonuses. The DC's need the boost and spell mastery items are useless if they don't stack.

    Ooh a couple of past lives is all it takes... I went the completionist route for 1 more DC, and then some wizard lives for spell pen. With this I can't reach anywhere near 75. I was having fun again being a little useful in EE again without being in shiradi.

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  13. #33
    Community Member K_0tiC's Avatar
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    Hmm I don't know what you are doing wrong but my wizards dcs are totally fine holds are in the 90% range without debuffs just a hypno with a 60enchant. My necro is a 66 and seems to still land just fine on wizards and rogues, the odd priest or beefy melee might save or required a debuff but not that often. I changed about my enhancements a little and can even go with spamming missles and using dcs! Being in shiradi only costs me 6 int I can twist the 3 necro dc. Taking pale master to tier 4 and evo am tier 5 main with necro secondary leaves me at a 56 enchant 62 necro, with every spell + death auras procing damage as well as viable dcs to still hit the required numbers. I don't have completionist feat and im human so I could easily pick up 3 int from drow and 2int from completionist...
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Yah, a bug that they also accidentally included in the wai section of the release notes instead of the "known issues."
    Ha, ha, you got me! You made me look. Oh, what a clever trick.

    But of course there is no such thing mentioned anywhere in the Working As Intended section.

  15. #35
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I have a DC wizzie and a dark monk with a very high quivering palm DC. And the monk DC is higher than wizzie DC and obtained at significantly lower cost. Do not compare the investment you have to become a monk with a high quivering palm DC and the investment you have to do a wizard with a spell DC for EE. The investment is much greater for the wizard. My monk has a very high instant kill and is a competent melee; my wizard has sacrifice many things (spell damage for example) to be competent with DC spells and even not with all possible spell schools. My wizard needs more past lives than monk.
    Monks have to get up close, while wizards can stay at a relatively safe range. This makes it reasonable to give monks a higher DC. This is just a qualitative statement, I have no idea whether the difference in DC is reasonable. On another note, I'm all for removing instakills altogether.

  16. #36
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Says who? Dev quote, please.
    Are you playing the "I can't think for myself, so I need a developer statement" card again? It gets old.

  17. #37
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Are you playing the "I can't think for myself, so I need a developer statement" card again? It gets old.
    I told to SirValentine that it wasn't not WAI in his thread. He didn't believe me anyway.

    If you want a proof: it is an EQUIPMENT bonus, like every other DC boosting item. SAME BONUSES DON'T STACK. It wasn't WAI, period.
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  18. #38
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Monks have to get up close, while wizards can stay at a relatively safe range. This makes it reasonable to give monks a higher DC. This is just a qualitative statement, I have no idea whether the difference in DC is reasonable. On another note, I'm all for removing instakills altogether.
    Abundant Step, incorprealbility, fast movement, and invisibility allow the monk to close range to deliver quivering palm/everything is nothing/void strike/stunning fist more effectively than a Wizard that does not utilize Enlarge as a feat. Even then they are still faster in most situations. Their cooldowns are less, and they have 9dc more for overwhelmingly less effort or sacrificial build choices.

    As the game currently stands, Monks are more efficient insta killers than Pales. To argue that this is somehow balanced is laughable.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Monks have to get up close, while wizards can stay at a relatively safe range. This makes it reasonable to give monks a higher DC. This is just a qualitative statement, I have no idea whether the difference in DC is reasonable. On another note, I'm all for removing instakills altogether.
    monks have significantly better defenses than wizards. Do not compare. Monks are one of the classes with better survival of the game.

    If is not the case for your monk, you are doing something very wrong, because it is very difficult to build a monk with poor survival. They have all: AC, improved evasion, dodge, incorporality, high STs (three saves good!!), DR, high healing amplification and even PRR if you work in that regard. Healing if you twist cocoon, and shintao and mystic give pos spellpower (the mystic if you use qstaff)
    Last edited by Iriale; 09-24-2013 at 05:35 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  20. #40
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Interesting, sounds like the same line of thinking that has casters preferring insta-kills & nuking to CC: if the melees need assistance, the casters better off without them... Teamwork? That's for suckers...
    I didn't read his point that way. I read it more along the lines of a completionist or near completionist build having ground out top gear shouldn't be strictly relegated to disco balls and mass holds by poorly thought out game mechanics.
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