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  1. #1
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    Default Dev's, Thank you for allowing me to enjoy playing a DC caster again

    Warning: Rant Below (commentary concerns EE content and recent changes to DC casting)

    Dev's, I want to thank you for allowing me to play my DC caster (wizard) for the last month. It was always a challenge to hit the ridiculous high DC's that EE mobs had, but every time I was able to lay down a bunch of debuffs and then land a spell, it felt like an accomplishment. Sure, I could have played a Shirdai like everyone else, but spamming the same 3 spells over and over, didn't seem like much of a challenge, nor was it any accomplishment.

    I played my wizard through U16, even then making it work required a ton of debuffing and proper planning, but with heavy mana usage, it was still somewhat viable. When U17 went live, even my spirit broke, and I shelved my toon, as being a non-contributing member of the party is not my idea of fun. Finally, there was shadowfell, and with +5 dc items, a +5 increase to possible intelligence, the stacking of spell mastery and school focus items, and enervation as a SLA, there was hope again for DC casting. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't no-fail, but with a enervation or other debuff first, and a maximized DC (68 necro dc), you were viable.

    So, I promptly TR'd into a Drow, farmed +11 intel gloves, +5 enchant and necro orbs, and all the gear necessary to be a contributing member of EE content once again. For the last month it was grand. Sure, Shirdia casters were still more powerful, and monks have insta-kills and crowd control (stuns) with DC's around 75+, but with work and skill I could fill an invaluable role.

    Then U19.2 came along, and for some reason, you guys thought that DC's casters were too uber or something (even though it would take 2 enervations or an energy drain before we cast our FoD for us to compete with a monk), and decided to nerf Spell Mastery back to the pre-U19 days. Its not like it is prevalent, there are only 4 items in the game with the ability, two of which are raid items -- but oh no, a wizard having a DC that is only 7 points below that of a monk, god the world is going to come to an end.

    Thank you for letting me enjoy DC casting for at least a month, now I guess it is time to put him back on the shelf and go back to playing my Rogue (w/ monk splash), or my Fighter (w/ monk splash), or maybe I should just TR the wizard into a pure monk, and be a real DC caster... err I mean puncher

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Don't TR into monk, are you crazy ? Warforged with fvs / monk splash is better. You can totally jump around , reconstruct yourself and spam 3 spells, try it, it's awesome !
    No DC casting is so much fun, not sure if it would suit you though, amazing knowledge and skill is required for that.
    Ghallanda

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Warning: Rant Below (commentary concerns EE content and recent changes to DC casting)

    Dev's, I want to thank you for allowing me to play my DC caster (wizard) for the last month. It was always a challenge to hit the ridiculous high DC's that EE mobs had, but every time I was able to lay down a bunch of debuffs and then land a spell, it felt like an accomplishment. Sure, I could have played a Shirdai like everyone else, but spamming the same 3 spells over and over, didn't seem like much of a challenge, nor was it any accomplishment.
    Seems to me that DC casting is about hitting a known number that is purely a math exercise. And assuming you can do simple math, making an effective DC castger build is among the most simplistic things possible in the game, you need to get a number... all the numbers are known... all the gear is known. So in effect the moment you decide to build a DC based caster you already can not fail (at least in EH content). How is that challenging?

    You could have made your point without dissing some other playstyle, I find the idea that DC casting is any more challenging to use than nuking to be laughable. Having to cast Enervation or mindfog as a debuff and then a save based insta death or a CC that means certain death anyway and might as well be insta death (about 2 or 3 spells) is more challenging than casting 3 nuking spells? How so? Nuking gets you aggro, what's the agrro like from a mob that just went poof, or is held and being beaten down at +50% by melee's?

    For the longest...um... forever in DDO up to the last year literally Nuking has only been semi-viable in non EE content until ED's. Until Shiradi in fact, except for elemental spec'ed Sorc's nuking as a caster was completely non-viable and underpowered.

    "hitting the same 3 spells over and over" is no challenge as opposed to reaching a DC number that takes a simple math exercise at the start of your build? Seriously I need Desired DC so I'll farm X Y and Z gear 18 starting stat all levels ups and X Y and Z gear = Desired DC.

    Still I support making DC casting a bit more viable than it is in EE (and dialing it down a bit for EH).

    Trouble is that DC spells pretty much already completely obviate non EE content if you have a caster in the group... no point in doing 500 melee damage twice to a MOB that dies from a FoD 1 second later, with 1500 hit points still... pointless to waste nuking mana on that mob too... You end up running a quest and the Arcane has 50 kills to the nearest melee's 15. Obviously you can see how this is unfun for anyone not the caster.

    Yes some EE's are over the top by about 3 or 4 DC, but unless you want nuking casters to argue with you and turn your thread into a you vs them discussion drop the nuking is easy compered to DC casting stuff.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-23-2013 at 10:31 PM.
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  4. #4
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    So I am taking it Spell Mastery Items no longer stack with other items?

    Seriously not trolling, just asking. Because I was really thinking about making one of those Estar cloaks on my PM for the time being. But, if they no longer stack you will have saved me some time/effort.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  5. #5
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    So I am taking it Spell Mastery Items no longer stack with other items?

    Seriously not trolling, just asking. Because I was really thinking about making one of those Estar cloaks on my PM for the time being. But, if they no longer stack you will have saved me some time/effort.
    They don't stack, they were never meant to.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    So I am taking it Spell Mastery Items no longer stack with other items?

    Seriously not trolling, just asking. Because I was really thinking about making one of those Estar cloaks on my PM for the time being. But, if they no longer stack you will have saved me some time/effort.
    Yep, no longer stacking. It might only be 2 DC, but that is 2 DC that was needed to give a viable chance (after debuffs) to hit EE fort saves. A purely focused enchantment build should be viable, but now it seems that you are either a Shiradi, or a hold bot (heck your buffs aren't even that useful anymore).

    As to the prior posters -- it is obvious that you have not played a DC caster in EE content, if you think it is just a math exercise and "is one of the simplest things in the game". As for the person worried about them being OP in EH content . . . give me a break, nearly anything destroys EH content (even most flavor builds). I explicitly stated that my commentary was around EE content, heck even used Red and Bold lettering.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    They don't stack, they were never meant to.
    Gotcha, ty for the answer. Looks like back to the drawing board again.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  8. #8
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Boo, hiss.

    Very disappointing.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Yep, no longer stacking. It might only be 2 DC, but that is 2 DC that was needed to give a viable chance (after debuffs) to hit EE fort saves. A purely focused enchantment build should be viable, but now it seems that you are either a Shiradi, or a hold bot (heck your buffs aren't even that useful anymore).

    As to the prior posters -- it is obvious that you have not played a DC caster in EE content, if you think it is just a math exercise and "is one of the simplest things in the game". As for the person worried about them being OP in EH content . . . give me a break, nearly anything destroys EH content (even most flavor builds). I explicitly stated that my commentary was around EE content, heck even used Red and Bold lettering.
    Ty for answering as well.

    And I hear ya, when beating any number threshold a value as small a 2 can be a big change. Don't give up though, I was reading your guide and found a good amount of useful info there.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    As to the prior posters -- it is obvious that you have not played a DC caster in EE content, if you think it is just a math exercise
    You should probably try reading posts instead of making generalized guesses about what people have and haven't done, it's work better for you.

    On the contrary your own words prove it's a math problem, the fact that you can not hit the "needed DC to be effective in EE" quite perfectly illustrates that you have a math problem, proving what I said to be true. I'm not sure why you think DC's being ineffective in EE makes it less of a math problem, do you not understand that to make them effective would require A) adding to your DC which you were able to do by your own account for a short time due to unintended stacking, and/or B) subtraction of Mobs saves? If you can't see that this is a simple math problem then I don't know what to tell you...

    As for EH being a cakewalk, yes it is a cakewalk in large part due to "no fail" (or mobs only save on a 20) DC based casting... once again, proving my point about it being purely a "math problem"... EH saves need to be boosted significantly and EE mob saves need to be dropped a by couple. Had you read my post instead of making guesses, you would see that I support making EE mobs saves a couple lower to allow tactical debuffs + DC based spells to be more useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    They don't stack
    Not anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    they were never meant to.
    Says who? Dev quote, please.

    Let's see:
    - They changed the name
    - They changed the description to remove the "does not stack" text
    - They brought out lootgen +5 DC items

    I don't think it was any kind of stretch to think that they were maybe deliberately keeping a piece of raid loot from the highest level raid in the game somewhat relevant instead of completely useless.

    Even now, I think it's just as likely that the nerf was a bug as making it stack was.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Then U19.2 came along, and for some reason, you guys thought that DC's casters were too uber or something (even though it would take 2 enervations or an energy drain before we cast our FoD for us to compete with a monk), and decided to nerf Spell Mastery back to the pre-U19 days.
    /signed or /seconded or /ranting-too or something.

  13. #13
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Warning... and monks have insta-kills and crowd control (stuns) with DC's around 75+, but with work and skill I could fill an invaluable role.

    Then U19.2 came along, and for some reason, you guys thought that DC's casters were too uber or something (even though it would take 2 enervations or an energy drain before we cast our FoD for us to compete with a monk), and decided to nerf Spell Mastery back to the pre-U19 days.
    DC 75 stuns/instakills are far from the norm for monks. I can do it on mine, but for me it took a couple fighter past lives, getting tactics from being a dorf, getting tactics from 2 fighter levels, and being a max wisdom monk in water stance (which kills PRR and hurts DPS, btw). You are not the first person to exaggerate this information. These forums are like a bad game of telephone.

    Spell Mastery didn't stack with my enchantment gear before 19.2, although they did stack with necro. I agree that spell mastery items should absolutely stack with specific spell school bonuses. The DC's need the boost and spell mastery items are useless if they don't stack.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Yep, no longer stacking. It might only be 2 DC, but that is 2 DC that was needed to give a viable chance (after debuffs) to hit EE fort saves. A purely focused enchantment build should be viable, but now it seems that you are either a Shiradi, or a hold bot (heck your buffs aren't even that useful anymore).

    As to the prior posters -- it is obvious that you have not played a DC caster in EE content, if you think it is just a math exercise and "is one of the simplest things in the game". As for the person worried about them being OP in EH content . . . give me a break, nearly anything destroys EH content (even most flavor builds). I explicitly stated that my commentary was around EE content, heck even used Red and Bold lettering.
    Just out of curiosity, what about the ability to decrease fortitude available on weapons? I remember back when it was all-wounding/puncturing and cloudkills as a way to work together as a party. Is teamwork from melees using fort-reduction (sundering weapons) plus DC casters too slow?

    (This is an honest question. If it is, then that seems to say something about power-creep.)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Warning... and monks have insta-kills and crowd control (stuns) with DC's around 75+, but with work and skill I could fill an invaluable role.

    Then U19.2 came along, and for some reason, you guys thought that DC's casters were too uber or something (even though it would take 2 enervations or an energy drain before we cast our FoD for us to compete with a monk), and decided to nerf Spell Mastery back to the pre-U19 days.
    DC 75 stuns/instakills are far from the norm for monks. I can do it on mine, but for me it took a couple fighter past lives, getting tactics from being a dorf, getting tactics from 2 fighter levels, and being a max wisdom monk in water stance (which kills PRR and hurts DPS, btw). You are not the first person to exaggerate this information. These forums are like a bad game of telephone.

    Spell Mastery items didn't stack with my enchantment gear before 19.2, although they did stack with necro.
    I agree that spell mastery items should absolutely stack with specific spell school bonuses. The DC's need the boost and spell mastery items are useless if they don't stack.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 09-23-2013 at 11:30 PM.

  16. #16

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    You won't like to hear this, and others also won't like it, but I think combat in this game is more fun when DC casters cannot quickly insta kill mobs over and over.

    I personally would prefer both challenging DCs AND cool down limits on the recast of insta kills. The cool down limits power so that combat has challenge at all levels.

  17. #17
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    You won't like to hear this, and others also won't like it, but I think combat in this game is more fun when DC casters cannot quickly insta kill mobs over and over.

    I personally would prefer both challenging DCs AND cool down limits on the recast of insta kills. The cool down limits power so that combat has challenge at all levels.
    I agree. When wizards were OP, I felt like a jerk when I played one and stole all the kills with no real skill or thought, and I felt useless when I played alongside a wizard on a melee. I don't want the system to get anywhere near where it was.

    That being said, I don't think +2 stacking from spell focus mastery would really tilt things too far in that direction. Casters could use a small boost in my opinion.

  18. #18
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post

    Says who? Dev quote, please.
    Wish I could but I was positive about it since u19 released. There are only a few things that give me that much certainty

    1 dev quote on the regular forums
    2 dev quote on the lam forums
    3 dev visit in the cesspool
    4 watching a thread about something that was staying very civil get cubed

    I can't find any quotes about it, so I'm thinking it was me watching a number 4 happen, wish I could remember for sure but I've been 100% positive about it since release and without one of those four I'm never this confident about things.

  19. #19
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Says who? Dev quote, please.

    Let's see:
    - They changed the name
    - They changed the description to remove the "does not stack" text
    - They brought out lootgen +5 DC items

    I don't think it was any kind of stretch to think that they were maybe deliberately keeping a piece of raid loot from the highest level raid in the game somewhat relevant instead of completely useless.
    •Specific lore (ie Fire Lore) doesn't stack with generic lore (ie Spell Lore {formerly known as "Arcane Lore"}).
    •Specific power (ie Combustion) doesn't stack with generic power (ie Potency).
    So it seems obvious that:
    •Specific Spell Focus (ie Necromacy) doesn't stack with generic Spell Focus Mastery.

    It's called a trend...

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Even now, I think it's just as likely that the nerf was a bug as making it stack was.
    Yah, a bug that they also accidentally included in the wai section of the release notes instead of the "known issues."
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  20. #20
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    Turbine loves them some Pay2Win Monks. Seriously, the monk-love (this includes splashed) in U19 is disgusting. And yes, I am abusing the hell of of this myself.

    It's completely reasonable for Monks to have DC 75 insta-kills that require no SP and have a 6 second cooldown. It must be reasonable because it's Turbine's idea. The fanbois said so.

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