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  1. #61
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default It is time for...

    ...the most arrogant truth I've ever uttered in these forums:

    Uberness: it's not meant for everybody.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  2. #62
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    ...the most arrogant truth I've ever uttered in these forums:

    Uberness: it's not meant for everybody.
    I know, it's not easy being ubber. But drink your milk and eat your vegetables and someday you could be me.

  3. #63
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    I would love to see more spells, but it is not like I am holding my breath, the odds of seeing new spells added to the game is pretty low.

    On to your point that I didn't mention the rest of the schools, those also lost 2dc, and when possible I tried to use them as much as possible. The problem is that there are not too many useful spells DC spells outside of Enchantment and Necro (evocation if you plan on nuking, but good luck with that). For Conjuration we have Web, which is awesome, and Trap the Soul, which would be awesome if it didn't have the HD cap. For transmutation you have Flesh to Stone, however; that also targets fortitude saves, and isn't as effective, nor can you get Transmutation as high as necromancy -- meaning that in most cases you are better off throwing a FoD. For Illusion, there is PK, which is fun (and I use it), but the 2 save mechanic makes it even more unreliable.

    There are lots of cool spells of those schools in PnP, but I am not counting on seeing any of those out of Turbine anytime soon.
    Oh man a lot of these spells are pretty easy to add. Hit up Torc or whoever is doing the spells these days. They just give a greater benefit to the true reincarnation past lives for the neglected spell schools like transmutation gets +2 past lives whereas evocation gets +1.
    Illusion school example
    -Weird is just a combination of phantasmal killer and wail of the banshee mechanic wise. I would have less cooldown when compared to wail because it has two saves.
    -Scintillating patterin is rainbow pattern with different effects.
    -Shades is a great summoning spell, but is close in mechanic to some of the other summoning spells - just a little different mob, but with all the shadow mobs these days seems like tech there to create a summoning shade.
    -All the shadow evocation spells you just put in a mechanic where the evocation mimics a spell at the same level (just one spell per level to keep it simpler), but does 80% of the damage of the evoker spell and is will save based. That is cool because it would work on all these mobs that have evasion and high reflex saves but low will saves. You just have the image be a little bit more translucent then the particular spell like shadow evocation fireball is more dark or black for e.g..
    -mirror image would be pretty easy to add although might require some balancing.
    -Demise Unseen would be super fun. Insta Kill and create a ghoul to fight for you lol. Combination of finger of death and create undead mechanic wise.
    -The different image spells would take a lot of work to add so I am not sure if that is worth it for the dev time, but obviously cool.

    I could go on and compile a list like this for transmutation, conjuration, etc. The tech is in there for a lot of these spells and would not require a ton of work making it work in DDO.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #64
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    The Necromancy school is a pretty big focal point for discussions like these, but that's deceptive I think. Even when discussing other schools, with enchantment excepted, the problem will persist. Because the problem is the bloated fort saves. The development approached enchantment to bring it into balance by adding no save element debuffing to Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. Coupling that with a slightly lower will save on the majority of mobs encountered in our current endgame makes enchantment a viable school. However the majority of spells used by endgame casters target the fortitude save. And this is problematic as the only no save element I'm aware of currently is one found in an extremely unpopular destiny and has a low random chance of going off. To lower the fort save with other debuffers, you have to beat the bloated fort save number as well. That's a pretty vicious sp cycle to get into.

    The argument that enchantment is doable so everything's fine is really off. A completionist and near completionist build has an punitive cost in sp and cooldowns to use the majority of their abilities. We are talking 13 and up to 36 tr's and gear grinding to fail. This is unbalanced.
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  5. #65
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    TL;DR (past page 2)

    When the OP and others of us knock shiradi casters it's not entirely because they spam the same 3 spells. It's because it isn't even a real caster build. The idea is dump DCs; forget them entirely, use a non-arcane ED that wasn't designed to be the primary ED of any arcane caster, splash some monk/paladin since you'll want saves/evasion you can't otherwise get, and THEN spam low level magic missile and related spells ad nauseum. It's a niche gimmick that doesn't in any way reflect the variety, diversity, and spirit of what an arcane caster is. A PM usually does, they'll use insta-kills primarily sure, but CC when needed or appropriate, nukes when tactically superior, buffs for the team, etc. Kudos to whoever found/created the original shiradi build for the creativity and originality involved. Sadly, now it's a gimmicky one-trick pony, cookie cutter build - because NO OTHER ARCANE CASTER BUILD IS VIABLE IN EE. If you can't see that it's wrong for arcane casting to devolve in this manner I don't know what else to say. If you can't see that the traditional caster build is less viable now as a completionist, multi wiz life TR than a first life shiradi or monk and recognize that this condition is therefore broken and in need of fixing... again, I don't know what else to say. But I will find it amusing when uber CR 60+ mobs figure out that having shield spells is a good idea.

    /signed

    I no longer play my DC caster because it isn't fun. I have much more fun now on melee, I use my arcane only for farming quests that are easier with dim-door.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    But I will find it amusing when uber CR 60+ mobs figure out that having shield spells is a good idea.
    Or for that matter, if mobs learn to harness the power that is Shiradi o.O

    And before all y'all think "big deal, I got shield clickies" remember: mobs have (seemingly) unlimited mana... so... Shiradi powered Comet Fall, Frost Lance and a few other tasty choices...

    Then again, if undead are hard enough to drive off potential revenue sources, they'll never introduce Destiny powered mobs... Pity.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 09-24-2013 at 08:09 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Trouble is that DC spells pretty much already completely obviate non EE content if you have a caster in the group... no point in doing 500 melee damage twice to a MOB that dies from a FoD 1 second later, with 1500 hit points still... pointless to waste nuking mana on that mob too... You end up running a quest and the Arcane has 50 kills to the nearest melee's 15. Obviously you can see how this is unfun for anyone not the caster.
    Trouble with Monk DC's pretty much obviate content if you have a monk in the group... No point throwing crushing despair, Mind fog, hypno to hold a monster when the monk just quivvering palms the monster 1 second later with a full ki bar still... pointless wasting nuking mana on that mob too... Obviously you can see how this is unfun for anyone but the monk.

    FTFY

    But in all seriousness, what was the point of this change? A weak attempt to push casting DC out of EE content so they can continue to 'spoil' the fun for those running non EE content? Perhaps, but I have gotten used to a lack of logic by the dev's. In fact I am in the right mood to be a completely d-bag and deliberately 'spoil' the fun of non-EE players because of this change.

  8. #68
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The Necromancy school is a pretty big focal point for discussions like these, but that's deceptive I think. Even when discussing other schools, with enchantment excepted, the problem will persist. Because the problem is the bloated fort saves. The development approached enchantment to bring it into balance by adding no save element debuffing to Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. Coupling that with a slightly lower will save on the majority of mobs encountered in our current endgame makes enchantment a viable school. However the majority of spells used by endgame casters target the fortitude save. And this is problematic as the only no save element I'm aware of currently is one found in an extremely unpopular destiny and has a low random chance of going off. To lower the fort save with other debuffers, you have to beat the bloated fort save number as well. That's a pretty vicious sp cycle to get into.

    The argument that enchantment is doable so everything's fine is really off. A completionist and near completionist build has an punitive cost in sp and cooldowns to use the majority of their abilities. We are talking 13 and up to 36 tr's and gear grinding to fail. This is unbalanced.
    I do not agree they if bumped illusion school and gave us more spells those illusion insta kill spells would have some will based spells as would some of those other spells like shadow evocation has nuking will spells. The other schools have more no save, will save, reflex save, and fortitude save options. The problem is we have necromancy = fort save spells specializing insta kill, enchantment = will save spells specialization in crowd control, and evocation = reflex save spells specializing in aoe damage which is only 1/2 of the schools. If some mobs have high fort saves they usually have lower will or reflex and then a caster with those specs can handle them.

    D&D has all kinds of spells with various schools and if this game had more spells and spell school options the illusionist would be great in the stormhorns, but not so good in whelon just like the necormancer is great in whelon but not so great in stormhorns. What else do the devs have to work on after this epic true reincarnation? I have not heard any system plans after this. A nice project would be buffing up all the schools and adding spells..
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  9. #69
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    While it was clear that spell focus stacking with spell mastery was not WAI, they should have noticed a bit of serendipity and gone with it.

    1. DC casting needs the boost

    2. It lines up well with tactics equipment: a higher specific bonus item that applies to one tactic/school (stunning +10/necromancy +5) and a smaller generic bonus that applies to all (Exceptional combat mastery/ spell mastery) They could even rename it "exceptional spell focus" to make the parallel even clearer.

    3. By requiring an additional gear slot for max DCs you make gearing casters more interesting and make more trade offs. Right now gearing a caster is rather less interesting than a melee.

    Reminds me of the the recent declaration that 2wf in animal form is not WAI. OK, you didn't intend it, but when you solve a problem by accident, don't undo the fix. The idea that they're spending dev time undoing unintended fixes when there's so many bugs and half completed projects boggles the mind.
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  10. #70
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    While it was clear that spell focus stacking with spell mastery was not WAI, they should have noticed a bit of serendipity and gone with it.

    1. DC casting needs the boost

    2. It lines up well with tactics equipment: a higher specific bonus item that applies to one tactic/school (stunning +10/necromancy +5) and a smaller generic bonus that applies to all (Exceptional combat mastery/ spell mastery) They could even rename it "exceptional spell focus" to make the parallel even clearer.

    3. By requiring an additional gear slot for max DCs you make gearing casters more interesting and make more trade offs. Right now gearing a caster is rather less interesting than a melee.

    Reminds me of the the recent declaration that 2wf in animal form is not WAI. OK, you didn't intend it, but when you solve a problem by accident, don't undo the fix. The idea that they're spending dev time undoing unintended fixes when there's so many bugs and half completed projects boggles the mind.
    You mean insta killing in stormhorns ee needs a boost is what you are saying. Tired of people calling this something other then what it is.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  11. #71
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    I'd be interested to see if folks still think epic ward is good for the overall health of the game at this point.

  12. #72
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    I'd be interested to see if folks still think epic ward is good for the overall health of the game at this point.
    The stat-damage ward at this point is ********. Other than that I think it's fine.

  13. #73
    Community Member kraaal's Avatar
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    Default Yes Insta Killing needs a boost in EE

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You mean insta killing in stormhorns ee needs a boost is what you are saying. Tired of people calling this something other then what it is.

    We are not saying FOD = success , we are saying Debuff + FOD = success. Which for me is the way it should be.
    The balance is about the time taken to kill a mob using 2 to 3 spells per mob seems fair, using 4 -5 is not.
    I don't think on EE content straight Insta kill should work, which by the way it works for monks.
    65/66 DC on a caster is not easy and is an achievement in itself, there should be reward.
    Insta kill should be an option on EE... Yes...fine i said it.
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  14. #74
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    two fast thoughts as someone who loves their palemaster

    1) a sort of reversed PPR system for enemy saves, so they can have a better chance at saving vs spells but never be immune type of deal.

    or

    2) for instakills such as wail, fod, etc. a damage on save based on the **CR** of the mob. that way you could make it be useful but not overpowered no matter what level content your running.

    so something like 10d5 (10-50) untyped damage x CR of mob (CR**60**EE** = 10d5 x 60 = 600d5 = 600-3000 damage) effected by spell power (+ negitive?). then it becomes relevant in any level damage with a chance to insta kill

    obviously you can weaken or buff as needed just throwing out basic premise in easy to read numbers :P
    Last edited by Snapdragoon; 09-24-2013 at 11:37 PM.

  15. #75
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapdragoon View Post
    two fast thought as someone who loves there palemaster
    No

  16. #76
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Yep, no longer stacking. It might only be 2 DC, but that is 2 DC that was needed to give a viable chance (after debuffs) to hit EE fort saves. A purely focused enchantment build should be viable, but now it seems that you are either a Shiradi, or a hold bot (heck your buffs aren't even that useful anymore).

    As to the prior posters -- it is obvious that you have not played a DC caster in EE content, if you think it is just a math exercise and "is one of the simplest things in the game". As for the person worried about them being OP in EH content . . . give me a break, nearly anything destroys EH content (even most flavor builds). I explicitly stated that my commentary was around EE content, heck even used Red and Bold lettering.
    Wow, that sucks that they don't stack. It invalidates the raid loot and the loot you have to work for - adamantine cloak of the dragon. How annoying.

    I agree with the other poster, btw, that you don't have to put down a class/ED to make your point. I enjoy playing Shiradi, I mash more than three buttons - the sla's, sonic blast, mm, higher spells maximized and empowered for group attack, and various healing b/c I refuse to play a toaster (they're too ugly for me).

  17. #77
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Running EE's last night in a group full of splash-fighters we're all laughing at how fun and OP they are right now. When the inevitable nerfs come we will not be shocked.

    But no, 75 DC melee insta-kills that Monk 15/X 5 can get is ridiculous.
    Woohooo, I am in a signature line!!!

    Oh, and...is that what I should do with my pure fighter now?

  18. #78
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not agree they if bumped illusion school and gave us more spells those illusion insta kill spells would have some will based spells as would some of those other spells like shadow evocation has nuking will spells. The other schools have more no save, will save, reflex save, and fortitude save options. The problem is we have necromancy = fort save spells specializing insta kill, enchantment = will save spells specialization in crowd control, and evocation = reflex save spells specializing in aoe damage which is only 1/2 of the schools. If some mobs have high fort saves they usually have lower will or reflex and then a caster with those specs can handle them.

    D&D has all kinds of spells with various schools and if this game had more spells and spell school options the illusionist would be great in the stormhorns, but not so good in whelon just like the necormancer is great in whelon but not so great in stormhorns. What else do the devs have to work on after this epic true reincarnation? I have not heard any system plans after this. A nice project would be buffing up all the schools and adding spells..
    I agree that there should be at least 30 more spells to chose from from varying schools. I also agree with the notion of making the schools of Illusion/Transmutation/Abjuration more viable choices for specialists. However, I disagree with your notion that Necromancy is all insta kill. The major majority of controlling and debuffing spells are in that school. The save against them is fortitude. The same is true for spells such as Flesh to Stone, Prismatic Ray, etc...
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