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  1. #21
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    First, if you're building expecting to use wisdom based abilities, you should be making a substantial investment into wisdom. Whether you consider 64 wisdom substantial is subjective I suppose. Also don't forget potential debuffs to make the tripping easier. A level drain weapon is amazing on a druid. If you have monk levels, you can lead with a fire/dark/fire autocrit with a life drainer for extra effective DC. My point is there are ways to make it work. Just like there are ways to land instakill spells if you're a caster. You just have to use debuffs sometimes and you need to put effort into your DC stat.

    Edit: you do have a point though. If you are a pure or nearly pure druid, you're likely better off with earthquake. Takedown would be far more useful on a monk splashed druid that is a deep enough splash you don't have access to earthquake but instead focus more on monk abilities like stunning fist/takedown rotation.
    please answer one question.. if you have wisdom why on earth are you doing in wolf form???????? we all know that animal form extend spell cool down by almost 3 times.. even with full enhancement it will 1.5 times longer.

    if you have 50 wisdom.. with some gear and twist.. you can almost land earthquake 100% of the time. and it will knock down full group at the same time not just one target.. so please explain to me the meaning of this spell

    p.s. serious if you are a caster druid would you even bother perpare this spell? or should i say would you turn into a wolf to show off your pitiful dps? also if you are a druid with wisdom.. would you focus all your ability and twist on evocation spell which damage and cc.. or would you build an character that can only trip but nothing else?

  2. #22
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    please answer one question.. if you have wisdom why on earth are you doing in wolf form???????? we all know that animal form extend spell cool down by almost 3 times.. even with full enhancement it will 1.5 times longer.

    if you have 50 wisdom.. with some gear and twist.. you can almost land earthquake 100% of the time. and it will knock down full group at the same time not just one target.. so please explain to me the meaning of this spell

    p.s. serious if you are a caster druid would you even bother perpare this spell? or should i say would you turn into a wolf to show off your pitiful dps?
    My wolf form is badly geared atm so it's not to that level of wis but it's 9druid 9 monk 2 fighter and plays like a monk that can self heal and buff. 5d10 17-18x3 19-20 x5 is nothing to sneeze at with 24% doublestrike and once I'm geared I'll have somewhere around a 70 stunning fist dc, take down is for when the mob I'm stunning rolls a 20 and I want to try something else to cc it. Other reasons are shadow fade, 25% dodge, improved evasion. I've got a caster based druid too and earthquake is awesome but this toon doesn't have earthquake and it wasn't the point behind the build.

  3. #23
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My wolf form is badly geared atm so it's not to that level of wis but it's 9druid 9 monk 2 fighter and plays like a monk that can self heal and buff. 5d10 17-18x3 19-20 x5 is nothing to sneeze at with 24% doublestrike and once I'm geared I'll have somewhere around a 70 stunning fist dc, take down is for when the mob I'm stunning rolls a 20 and I want to try something else to cc it. Other reasons are shadow fade, 25% dodge, improved evasion. I've got a caster based druid too and earthquake is awesome but this toon doesn't have earthquake and it wasn't the point behind the build.
    Pretty much that exactly. I've played a very similar build before. It plays as stated, like a monk with self heals. If you are a caster druid, I would agree that takedown has reduced usefulness. This particular build is melee focused wolf form so takedown plays a key role. A spell doesn't have to be viable on every version of a class. In fact it's nice that some spells shine on different builds.
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  4. #24
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    It isn't just wisdom that affects Takedown. Vertigo affects it. As does exceptional combat mastery. Anything that affects the DC's of the Trip tactical feat will affect your Takedown DC. It isn't hard to get a viable Takedown DC.
    Bull.

    vert+10 item, no combat master, didn't bother to take the drednaught tactics, and near max wisdom. Takedown works maybe 1 in 30 tries. The only reason to do use it is for the extra W of damage.

    Translation: unless you dedicate yourself to tripping, forget it working.

    And baring evasion, I've got no problems making things bounce with earthquake on EE.

  5. #25
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Bull.

    vert+10 item, no combat master, didn't bother to take the drednaught tactics, and near max wisdom. Takedown works maybe 1 in 30 tries. The only reason to do use it is for the extra W of damage.

    Translation: unless you dedicate yourself to tripping, forget it working.

    And baring evasion, I've got no problems making things bounce with earthquake on EE.
    For my part I'm not saying that you can get to 95% on it, but you are missing 8 dc from what you just said which is up to a possible 40%. Once geared I won't be at 95% probably closer to 50% but with the fact that you seem to get 2-4 chances for it to hit that isn't horrible on my build as a fall back option for if a stunning fist fails.

  6. #26
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Ouch!

    Given the ham-handed approach often taken towards "fixing" things around here, I would be very careful in asking for them. Also remember that you're talking to people in the U.S. Here, we "fix" our animals by neutering them. I don't want the devs "fixing" my Druids in this fashion...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #27
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My wolf form is badly geared atm so it's not to that level of wis but it's 9druid 9 monk 2 fighter and plays like a monk that can self heal and buff. 5d10 17-18x3 19-20 x5 is nothing to sneeze at with 24% doublestrike and once I'm geared I'll have somewhere around a 70 stunning fist dc, take down is for when the mob I'm stunning rolls a 20 and I want to try something else to cc it. Other reasons are shadow fade, 25% dodge, improved evasion. I've got a caster based druid too and earthquake is awesome but this toon doesn't have earthquake and it wasn't the point behind the build.
    if you melee surely your str is higher then wisdom. why would you use takedown instead of normal trip? if your str is 6 point higher then wisdom there are no reason to use takedown.. normal trip is free of cost

  8. #28
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    if you melee surely your str is higher then wisdom. why would you use takedown instead of normal trip? if your str is 6 point higher then wisdom there are no reason to use takedown.. normal trip is free of cost
    wis is actually higher than str but not by much, only took str to a base+tome of 23 for oc so that stunning fist which is based off of wis would have a high dc.

    edit*

    I also seem to get a min of 2 hits on takedown and 1 on trip though the sample size is low.
    Last edited by Charononus; 09-23-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  9. #29
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    For my part I'm not saying that you can get to 95% on it, but you are missing 8 dc from what you just said which is up to a possible 40%. Once geared I won't be at 95% probably closer to 50% but with the fact that you seem to get 2-4 chances for it to hit that isn't horrible on my build as a fall back option for if a stunning fist fails.
    You can say I've missed more than 8 DC by not having fighter past lives, not being dwarf/wf, etc.

    But that only proves that unless you dedicate yourself to something, you aren't going to make it hit at all. Heck, it barely works on EH either with what I described.

    EN... emm... trying to remember the last time I did an EN and couldn't steamroll it to cause a need to use the trip.

    Now add in the fact that it takes both SP AND it uses the same timer as trip... What is the point of it again? Oh yeah, SP for a 1 W more attack. bleh.

  10. #30
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    You can say I've missed more than 8 DC by not having fighter past lives, not being dwarf/wf, etc.

    But that only proves that unless you dedicate yourself to something, you aren't going to make it hit at all. Heck, it barely works on EH either with what I described.

    EN... emm... trying to remember the last time I did an EN and couldn't steamroll it to cause a need to use the trip.

    Now add in the fact that it takes both SP AND it uses the same timer as trip... What is the point of it again? Oh yeah, SP for a 1 W more attack. bleh.
    That's really the case with all dc stuff in the game though it's basically all or nothing no matter what kind of dc you're talking about.

  11. #31
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    That's really the case with all dc stuff in the game though it's basically all or nothing no matter what kind of dc you're talking about.
    that is true.. but however usually it is your damage dice.. or relate to it. like monk they use wisdom. but they have tons of ability, even destiny around wisdom. fighter, barb have high strength and strength is their key of damage, which is link to tactical dc.

    but look at melee druid.. wisdom does not help your melee combat, spell are not viable in animal form. if you have high wisdom score, then these form ability are meaningless(since you have better option), if you don't they are also useless. it is like stunning blow and stunning fist. stunning fist is superior in dc, because you must fight unarm. takedown too, must be use in wolf form. if they put restriction on it, it should be better then the normal version.. and viable. if you put charisma as modifier for stunning fist, do you really think people would be happy?

    p.s. if you are melee why would you have higher wisdom score? are you using ranger improve finesse to damage with dex? or your build is center around monk ability?
    Last edited by burningwind; 09-24-2013 at 02:59 AM.

  12. #32
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post

    p.s. if you are melee why would you have higher wisdom score? are you using ranger improve finesse to damage with dex? or your build is center around monk ability?
    no str to hit and dmg but lowering my str by 5 and raising wis instead for a better stunning fist loses at most 3 damage where even before ed's etc stunned is an extra 50% dmg so that gets me about 30-40 dmg at the moment. Yes it means my boss fight dps is a little lower but overall dps is higher.

  13. #33
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    no str to hit and dmg but lowering my str by 5 and raising wis instead for a better stunning fist loses at most 3 damage where even before ed's etc stunned is an extra 50% dmg so that gets me about 30-40 dmg at the moment. Yes it means my boss fight dps is a little lower but overall dps is higher.
    in that case you are more of a monk then druid... i doubt you have really big sp pool.. would you use trip which is free of cost.. or would you use take down which cost sp but 3 dc higher?

    p.s. what i had in mind is something like.. dc = 10+half character level + strength mod + trip modifier just like stunning fist.. surely this will benefit everyone.. do you think not?

  14. #34
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    in that case you are more of a monk then druid... i doubt you have really big sp pool.. would you use trip which is free of cost.. or would you use take down which cost sp but 3 dc higher?

    p.s. what i had in mind is something like.. dc = 10+half character level + strength mod + trip modifier just like stunning fist.. surely this will benefit everyone.. do you think not?
    dc=10+half character level +wis mod + trip mod I'd agree with never str mod, you have standard trip for that, keep it wisdom instead of nerfing builds.

    edit*
    wis is actually 10 higher than str because of enhancements so it would be 5 dc lower using standard trip.
    Last edited by Charononus; 09-24-2013 at 06:46 AM.

  15. #35
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    in that case you are more of a monk then druid... i doubt you have really big sp pool.. would you use trip which is free of cost.. or would you use take down which cost sp but 3 dc higher?

    p.s. what i had in mind is something like.. dc = 10+half character level + strength mod + trip modifier just like stunning fist.. surely this will benefit everyone.. do you think not?
    Well if you really wanted to please everyone you could use either wis or str mod, whichever is higher. That way str Druids can use takedown and monk/druid mixes can use it still. If it's purely str based, then the monk/druid mixes will probably never bother as they are wisdom based. And regardless of how big your sp pool is, you can make room for takedown. It really doesn't cost that much. It's like saying you only have 300 sp so you shouldn't use Rejuvenation Cocoon. If the ability is useful enough and has synergy with your build, you build to make it work.

    Also you keep coming back to this extra cooldown on spells. I'm not sure you're seeing it from the other side. Yes, compared to a humanoid druid, you have a longer cooldown, but this build in question, the monk/druid will take the longer cooldown and deal with it because compared to the option of a standard pure monk (no spells like heal at all) it's still better to have the longer cooldown spells than no spells.
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  16. #36
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    dc=10+half character level +wis mod + trip mod I'd agree with never str mod, you have standard trip for that, keep it wisdom instead of nerfing builds.

    edit*
    wis is actually 10 higher than str because of enhancements so it would be 5 dc lower using standard trip.
    you are a monk splash build.. thats why you want wisdom. but melee druid mostly have wis as a dump stats. druid class is not meant to monk splash only... comeon be reasonable. this is meant to use by all druid not just monk splash ones.

    p.s. if you agree that stunning fist been disable in animal form. then i agree to use wis as mod for all innate ability.



    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Well if you really wanted to please everyone you could use either wis or str mod, whichever is higher. That way str Druids can use takedown and monk/druid mixes can use it still. If it's purely str based, then the monk/druid mixes will probably never bother as they are wisdom based. And regardless of how big your sp pool is, you can make room for takedown. It really doesn't cost that much. It's like saying you only have 300 sp so you shouldn't use Rejuvenation Cocoon. If the ability is useful enough and has synergy with your build, you build to make it work.

    Also you keep coming back to this extra cooldown on spells. I'm not sure you're seeing it from the other side. Yes, compared to a humanoid druid, you have a longer cooldown, but this build in question, the monk/druid will take the longer cooldown and deal with it because compared to the option of a standard pure monk (no spells like heal at all) it's still better to have the longer cooldown spells than no spells.

    hmm good point.. ok ...how about all innate give two version. a wis and a str version..

    p.s. wait a minute.. i think we forget one thing.. we are not DEV!! lol...well i hope any of them ever bother to glance at this..
    Last edited by burningwind; 09-24-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  17. #37
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    you are a monk splash build.. thats why you want wisdom. but melee druid mostly have wis as a dump stats. druid class is not meant to monk splash only... comeon be reasonable. this is meant to use by all druid not just monk splash ones.
    Even if I stayed pure I'd keep wisdom high, there is more to a class than high str.

  18. #38
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    but melee druid mostly have wis as a dump stats
    I think we hit on your problem right there. If you're dumping wisdom, why are you even bothering with a wisdom based ability? I don't play a melee str based sorc and complain I can't Wail of the Banshee everything. There could be a logical argument that Wail should be a con based DC I suppose, but sorcs are cha based and should max cha to hit their DC's. Druids are wis based and should max wis to hit their DC's. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too by having a str based character and use all his abilities without sacrifice. Might I suggest a fighter instead?
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  19. #39
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Bull.

    vert+10 item, no combat master, didn't bother to take the drednaught tactics, and near max wisdom. Takedown works maybe 1 in 30 tries. The only reason to do use it is for the extra W of damage.

    Translation: unless you dedicate yourself to tripping, forget it working.

    And baring evasion, I've got no problems making things bounce with earthquake on EE.
    If you don't build for DC, no DC will land. I thought that was obvious.
    Also, a minor note. Takedown works 1/20 tries at a min - mob rolls a 1.
    Works a max of 19/20 - mob rolls a 20.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    For my part I'm not saying that you can get to 95% on it, but you are missing 8 dc from what you just said which is up to a possible 40%. Once geared I won't be at 95% probably closer to 50% but with the fact that you seem to get 2-4 chances for it to hit that isn't horrible on my build as a fall back option for if a stunning fist fails.
    No combat mastery, no legendary tactics, +10 item?
    I believe you mean 6*+6+5 for 11 missing DC.
    Although, that might be nice for a druid life.. with dwarf, *3 fighter PL and fighter for +9 to tactics.

    *Can you get >6 for combat mastery? Don't think so, but.. maybe.

  20. #40
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    If you don't build for DC, no DC will land. I thought that was obvious.
    Also, a minor note. Takedown works 1/20 tries at a min - mob rolls a 1.
    Works a max of 19/20 - mob rolls a 20.

    No combat mastery, no legendary tactics, +10 item?
    I believe you mean 6*+6+5 for 11 missing DC.
    Although, that might be nice for a druid life.. with dwarf, *3 fighter PL and fighter for +9 to tactics.

    *Can you get >6 for combat mastery? Don't think so, but.. maybe.
    don't know why but I had legendary tactics and the kensai fighter tactics as the same in my mind as +3 you are right it should be 11 not 8.

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