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  1. #21
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I think if you have more than 1,100 HP on any build, you need to reevaluate your setup.
    You know what makes me cringe more than anything else in a PUG? When a Paladin or a Fighter join an EE group and have 1,400-1,500+ HP, and are S&B outside of tanking a raid. Why? Sure they may be hard to kill, but I know they're doing no DPS what-so-ever, and unless the rest of the group is there beating on the same mobs they'll never kill anything.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the classes, and I appreciate a good tank in raids that call for one... But in regular questing put the silly shield away and pull your ESOS out and actually do something.

    My opinion is that if you know what you're doing, 600-900 HP for a melee toon is perfect. Any less and you run the risk of being 1 shotted in EE's. any more and you're wasting gear slots, enhancement points, feats and stat points for very little gain; These things would be better spent on DPS.

    Caster's I can't comment on, because I've never played an epic level "Caster" caster. But most of the truly good arcanes I run with have around 600-800 it seems.

    DPS is an iffy subject, and is hard to say "You should be doing this much no matter what"... I mean, how much DPS should a melee Sorc be doing? or a Dex based Monk?
    Well with the changes its a bit unforgiving to be switching out of S&B while in stance, switching any weapons, so its often all or nothing, be married to that shield. Esos? come on not everyone has one.........I wish I know some myself inclueded who have been farming for that item for.......years. And yeah like above me there are some who don't do too bad with the ole cutting board and bread knife combo. Back before the changes I did have a 2wf toon with S&B option to tank, and sometimes in EE I did pull out the shield when asked to tank as it where, I was a shocked at how well it worked at times. I think for some they can be ok in 1000-1200 range, and still have decent dps.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    And how the hell are you going to meassure your damage per second output, since there are no built in tools, and no plugin system for 3rd party to develop them?
    Perhaps they think that DPS = damage per swing?

    Edit: Damage calculators that can calculate what they expect your DPS to be do exist, but I'd be surprised if more than 25% of the people that have responded have actually used one. The calculators are also nowhere near accurate to the real numbers from fighting.
    Last edited by Laeelin; 09-23-2013 at 09:18 AM.

  3. #23
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    And how the hell are you going to meassure your damage per second output, since there are no built in tools, and no plugin system for 3rd party to develop them?
    It is actually reasonably easy to get a fairly good idea of your DPS:

    Just find some high HP monster of a type where you see the HP because of the monster manual and hit them while timing it. Repeat many enough times to get the accuracy you want. For extra accuracy if you care: have video capture going on and then use freeze frames...

  4. #24
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    My cleric cant solo EE because I don't have the DPS for it, sadly. However I had great HP and Heals so I don't die either. So we just have a slap fight until I zone out to find a pug.

    I'm actually grinding out Legendary Dreadnaught now so that I can remedy that.

  5. #25
    Community Member Infiltraitor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    I think tanks are listed a tad high.. or proper DPS is a bit low..
    On the surface, it's a bit of both.

    That said, it is simply the nature of the profession.

    For a DPS, being underpowered is often still "good enough" to get the job done. His contribution is quantative. Doing more dps or less dps really only affects the duration of the quest.

    The Tank must content with surviving a boss encounter and maintaining aggro against other DPS players. His contribution is qualitative. If the tank dies against the boss or loses aggro, this can result in a party wipe. For this reason, the tank must be a significantly better player and significantly better geared than the dps. IMO tanks have the hardest job in DDO. As opposed to healers, who have the crappiest job in DDO.

    Still the weakest member and dumbest of Omnipresence.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Once upon a time, we expected casters to have at least 300hp for doing Shroud back when cap was 16.
    since when ?

    when shroud was run at level 16 it was a lot easier, intim was a lot more effective and there were no grazing attacks, all you needed the caster to do was clear the trash, keep an eye out for portal keepers and get the crystal

    not to mention to get 300hp as a caster at level 16 would have been close to impossible without a GS hp item, which would be second in line to the GS sp item for a caster, and even than you would be pushing it, this was before you could get amrath con6 greater false life belts

    the hp thing was never really a concern till long after F2P went live, and in all fairness too much emphasis is put into it on the forums... which unfortunately trickles into the game
    Last edited by 5chinoble; 09-23-2013 at 03:18 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    750 HP is the new "500." That probably the minimum any front-line combatant should have.

    Regarding DPS . . . there is no reliable calc post EDs. I go with EE Sobrien beat-downs, time how long you can kill him while he's incapped (FoTW Overwhelming force is great for this test). Of course with class-based dungeon scaling YMMV . . . if you can kill him in less than 45 seconds (solo scaling) you're doing alright.

  8. #28
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    And how the hell are you going to meassure your damage per second output, since there are no built in tools, and no plugin system for 3rd party to develop them?
    Planar gateways have exactly 12,000 HP. So you go to Aussircaex's Valley and time how long it takes to beat it down.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Planar_Gateway
    Last edited by Ryiah; 09-23-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    You might be surprised - shield mastery adds doublestrike, 2hf feats increase glancing blows & probability of those glancing blows being upgraded to a full hit... then if they're using one of those yummy Nightmare bastard swords that's a decent number of levels being drained, which can be the equivalent of 1000 hp especially on an orange-named enemy.

    I'll agree that SOME super-HP crazy characters might be very low damage output, but don't write-off all of them
    I had one of the S&B offensive builds. Just a tad bit over 1k, and I could buff myself up to about 1400 give or take. But in doing so, I gave up so much offensive ability that it just wasn't worth it.

    Also, I'm not sure about anyone else but my feats were pretty much all set in stone. I can't imagine taking more than 1 toughness and 1 Epic toughness on that build, let alone the 4-5 they run.

    There's a paladin on Ara and I's server, who is aiming to have 2000hp by level 28. First lifer, all gear for hp, pure paladin. Dude tries to be a tank so hard, but can't hold aggro against even a cha based bard S&Bing with a dagger.

  10. #30
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyDuck81 View Post
    You might be surprised - shield mastery adds doublestrike, 2hf feats increase glancing blows & probability of those glancing blows being upgraded to a full hit... then if they're using one of those yummy Nightmare bastard swords that's a decent number of levels being drained, which can be the equivalent of 1000 hp especially on an orange-named enemy.

    I'll agree that SOME super-HP crazy characters might be very low damage output, but don't write-off all of them
    Oh, I wouldn't discount them entirely. One of my guildies, and one of the best Fighters on my server for the longest time had a S&B Fighter. The thing is, he knows that his shield wasn't needed 100% of the time. He isn't afraid to pull out his Cleaver and go to town on mobs when tanking isn't needed.

    If combat worked differently in this game I would love to see some awesome S&B builds, but in most situations MOAR DPS! is all that is needed, and waiting for the "tank" to do his actual job just makes thing slower, more complicated, and generally less fun in regular questing.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Well with the changes its a bit unforgiving to be switching out of S&B while in stance, switching any weapons, so its often all or nothing, be married to that shield. Esos? come on not everyone has one.........I wish I know some myself inclueded who have been farming for that item for.......years. And yeah like above me there are some who don't do too bad with the ole cutting board and bread knife combo. Back before the changes I did have a 2wf toon with S&B option to tank, and sometimes in EE I did pull out the shield when asked to tank as it where, I was a shocked at how well it worked at times. I think for some they can be ok in 1000-1200 range, and still have decent dps.
    I agree that the EH changes have changed the game with S&B builds a lot, and in my, and many others eyes have ruined them. I wouldn't dream of even rolling a S&B build now, even if I had all the needed gear.

    ESOS was just the first weapon that came to mind. Lol Any good weapons will do, I just meant that most times, tanks aren't needed and they'd be better suited pulling out their DPS setup and killing stuff.

    Tanking red named bosses in EE's worked well in some quests like EE Cabal for One. I enjoyed seeing them get some actual play time as their main "role" so to speak.

    But sadly more often than not the S&B people I would see in game hve 14-1600 HP, in defender stance, and are sitting in Sentinel destiny. Because, you know if they go into LD they lose 50-70PRR and they just can't live without that!
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life10/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin, 2xMonk
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  11. #31
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    There's a paladin on Ara and I's server, who is aiming to have 2000hp by level 28. First lifer, all gear for hp, pure paladin. Dude tries to be a tank so hard, but can't hold aggro against even a cha based bard S&Bing with a dagger.
    Hehe, Granted Trix is the best bard on the server... Or really any server for that matter.
    If he ever logs in that is. >.<
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life10/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin, 2xMonk
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  12. #32
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvirini View Post
    It is actually reasonably easy to get a fairly good idea of your DPS:

    Just find some high HP monster of a type where you see the HP because of the monster manual and hit them while timing it. Repeat many enough times to get the accuracy you want. For extra accuracy if you care: have video capture going on and then use freeze frames...
    I kinda did that with my rogue. Granted, she stuns the enemy then kills it. However this metric doesn't really seem to work when I kill 20 things with 5000hp, and it takes 2 seconds a piece to kill them.

    I seriously doubt I'm doing 2500dps non blitzing...but damn do I kill things fast.

  13. #33
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Oh, I wouldn't discount them entirely. One of my guildies, and one of the best Fighters on my server for the longest time had a S&B Fighter. The thing is, he knows that his shield wasn't needed 100% of the time. He isn't afraid to pull out his Cleaver and go to town on mobs when tanking isn't needed.

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