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  1. #1
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Default My Endgame, or: How I learned why I hate raiding...

    I keep seeing thread after thread after thread after thread, focusing on one of two things:

    End game sucks, no raids, my super uber awesome player skills show me that everything is boring now, no challenge, don't care about story, I just want 15 or so raids at endgame to grind repeatedly with very low drop rates.

    -or-

    End game is ok, as end game in this game is TRing, but I'm worried about Epic TR and all the raiders need to realize this and completely change the way they approach the game.

    I have been very vocal in the past against both of these groups, as they seem to think that they are the ones who are the majority and they are the ones who should be catered to. Now, my intentions when being outspoken against them was not that I think they shouldn't be catered to, but more of the fact that they need to realize that they are NOT in the majority. I would say TR'ers make up a small portion, Raiders are slightly higher in population (and dwindling), people like me (making tons of alts, weird flavor builds, playing for story and enjoyment of quests, might do a TR here or there, cares about character advancement and power but is not a min/max'er, raids very very seldom) are slightly larger, and the majority of players are the ones who log in, play for about 30-35 minutes a night, probably are on a path, first lifer's who have never set foot inside a raid.

    In reality, all three groups need to be catered to. The issue, however, is that certain groups feel they are exclusive and need to be exclusive. Of course, these groups blame turbine (TR peeps say they are exclusive because turbine implemented the death 10% penalty, raiders say that people without self healing are a burden on the raid, etc.) People in the third group (let's call us the gimp group, as we are usually referred to as that, no matter how powerful our toons really are...) and the casual group (or, normal players) are usually not allowed in the secret circles, shunned from precious groups and forced to make it on our own.

    Now, before I move to my solution, let me tell you why I don't raid, which seems to be the biggest group of complainers on the forums, and why I'm happy the current endgame has no raids (keep reading, and don't lynch me, I plan on offering solutions to all groups, as you guys are important as well.)

    I want to raid. I do. My favorite quest in the game is Chronoscope. I love every single thing about it. From the story, to the fights, to the design, just fantastic. I've only run this quest in an actual raid group once. Tempest Spine is also amazing, though, again, I've run it in a group once. Vault of Night I did twice with a full raid group, but we wiped the first one (due to me, funny story, not a gimp story, just funny) so we did a second run. These are the ONLY three raids I have run in the game in an actual group. I have run DQ, with myself, my wife and two members of our guild. I usually just soloed it way over level. Same goes with Shroud....my wife and I duo'ed it all the way to Harry when we were level 25. We died shortly thereafter. Also stepped into CitW just to see how long we would last, wasn't very long, but granted, we stepped in on EE just to see how terrible we were and we laughed a lot.

    For us, this game is fun, and we want to experience all of it, but raiding just ISN'T fun, and here is why. Every raid we have been in has been full of the most elitist jerks I have ever come across. The reason I know ADQ, Chrono and Tempest Spine so well now is due to a friend I made who ran us through them (in a three man group) until we learned them. But every other raid we've joined, the jerks came out in full force. Now, this is my own issue, and not turbines, but my wife has severe anxiety disorder, and I have schizophrenia (yes, the kind you think of, no, I never hear voices telling me to kill people, yes I get asked that all the time, and yes, we compliment each other very well when both of us have episodes...lol). Anyway, I can take people saying things to me, but my wife can't. And when you try to explain to someone in a private tell "Hey man, lighten up on my wife. She plays for fun, and has anxiety issues, and you're sending her into a panic attack" and they respond by openly mocking her in party chat, and this has happened in multiple raids, then yeah, we end up not raiding.

    Bottom line, if raiders want more raids, stop being stuck up elitist jerks and start accepting people, and helping them. I need to run CitW to get an item, and plus I really want to play it for story purposes. I'm tired of the fact that I can't finish story-lines due to the best ones ending in raids. But, the people factor has always been the issue. Now, we've tried remedying this. We've recruited in our guild, to marginal effect. We at one time got enough people to run two raids at once. But none of us knew what we were doing, and it ended badly. I think it was Reaver's couple years ago, I don't remember.

    Anyway, again, if we could find groups where there weren't jerks in the group, the "You only have 500hp? What a freaking moron!" or the "You're on a druid just focus on healing me, idiot" or to my wife, the "You're arti can't heal itself? What are you, stupid?"...we would probably raid more often. I know quite a few others that would as well. While we took our vacation (i.e. unemployed, no internet) from the game, one of my best friends in the guild leveled up his TR and got into a CitW run for his very first time. He was trying to get comms. His experience? "Well, I liked the quest, and even though I had a lot of HP and SP and was killing things and healing myself, I got told I kept slowing the group down and that I was blacklisted from them moving forward."



    So, that is my rant, and why I don't like raiding. I also am not a fan of TR, but that's because I don't want to run through with the same character over and over again, I want to play through with new characters with different back-stories and different play-styles (though, I will probably Epic TR, as I love the level 20+ content, even though most people think it sucks...and I don't feel I will hate that as much as a normal TR). So, what is the solution I have?

    I mentioned earlier I had a solution, one to end the bickering (not gonna happen) and make every group happy (until we can all find something else to complain about.) Now, keep in mind, I am blatantly stealing this from another person in another thread, but because the thread was closed a few weeks ago, I cannot remember that person's name to thank him for this brilliant idea. But, this would solve the issues for the people like me, who want to play everything, experience the best quests in the game, and have a shot at all items (granted, lower in power), and the raiders get to have their raids back.

    I know it's too late to do this for the current quests, so leave them the way they are. Those of you who want the old raids raised in level are just going to have to deal with it.

    Basically, the solution is, moving forward, have all quests come in two flavors. The normal Epic version (C,N,H,E) and the True Epic (or true elite, whatever). True Epic will be for 12 man groups. Yes, every quest is a potential raid. Increased difficulty (not just slightly increased CR, but maybe mob types, more CC from mobs, whatever works), and, to keep you guys really happy, True Epic items! This is similar to how the scroll/seal/shard system worked. You get the named item from the Epic quest, then True Epic pieces drop, and you can upgrade your items. Maybe instead of having it be you need seal, scroll and shard, it can be like this:

    Epic Weapon A is a great-sword. It has decent stats. There are three True Epic pieces available. One gives a to-hit bonus, one bypasses certain DR, and one increases base die-roll. You can only have one True Epic upgrade on your sword, so you keep running hoping to get the one you want. I know this isn't the greatest example, and isn't meant to be a suggestion for types of upgrades, just explaining the three different types of upgrades for each item will be separate and each will give some sort of benefit, one not being greater than the other.

    Now, keep this in mind. EVERY QUEST moving forward has the option to be a raid. So the raiders who want the most challenge and want to grind for loot have many options of quests and many choices to make as far as items go.

    Now, the only fear I have here is that as we move forward, there may be TOO many raid/quests, and the player base will be spread out so far between them. This idea may also work if every end quest (last quest of the chain, i.e. The Portal Opens, In the Flesh, Lord of Eyes, What Goes Up, etc.) have this option, and the upgrade system works where you can get the True Epic upgrades for all named items in the chain.

    So, people like myself have all the quests to play, no issues, no muss, no fuss. We can get all the same items everyone else can. Likewise, the raiders get to have raids again, while having loot to grind for.

    So, who agrees? Who likes this idea? Who has run into the raiding issues I have? Who has been the person in the raid groups to do that and can CONDONE the actions we have seen? Who thinks I should just shut up already?

    TL;DR - We all play the same game, but differently. We all need to be catered to, and for god's sake, treat other players kindly and not like total jerkfaces.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  2. #2
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Oh, also, to clarify, I am, in no way, saying ALL people who raid act like this...it's just a certain amount of them. Unfortunately, a large number of them post on the forums, and they all seem to be in every raid I run...
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Who thinks I should just shut up already?
    I chose this! Thanks for offering the option hehe.

    I don't wanna be harsh but your reasons are your own and seem to be related to the kind of player you are. If you join a raid group full of elitists as you call them and do your job right, I don't see how there could be any problem.

    Unless it's just what they say that bothers you? Doubtful.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  4. #4
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    You don't like raiding because of the people, but aren't willing to put in the time with a complete group of people who don't know it to learn it and play it.......???????

    Really?????

    So you complain about *elitists* because they... what don't want to play flowersniffer??? they don't want to just drag you along for no reason while you pike????

    You know when those raids were new, those of us who have been here for a while HAD TO LEARN THEM OURSELVES.... how did we do this magical wonderful feat???? WE PLAYED THE RAID AND LEANRED IT..... I know its a mystical concept to some people...

    You don't want elitists, throw up the raid lfms yourself with explicit instructions, or run it with the guild you created... AND RUN THE RAID WITH PEOPLE WHO JUST LEANING IT. If you cant complete it or someone screws up, well learning experience.... chuck it up, and try again.

    Tempest spine blackguards were HORRIBLE..... we still played it.
    Dragon was so broken we had to magic missle her for a LOOONG time to have any chance of beating her... we still played it.
    Titan wasn't beaten until the night before the next update by a rather...slippery solution.... we still banged our heads against the wall trying.
    Demon Queen was never that bad a quest.... so we played it a lot.... except for the whole run all 4 quests before the raid... that sucked and kept people away for a long time.
    Reaver when it first came out wiped a lot of pugs because of the difference of it.... but in no time most pugs knew it and it was farmed constantly.
    Abbot was broken when it came out, broken so many times since then, and you know what... PEOPLE STILL RAN IT and run it....not as pugged as much as others, but its still there.
    Shroud was beat most of the time for the first few months using exploits on harry to beat him, but even after that was changed and people complained about him being a pain to surround and pound... they ran it then , they ran it after, they still run it.
    Hound and vod were two rather unfriendly to pug raids when started, but within a month or two both were being pugged all the time.
    TOD wiped a lot of pugs and guild groups in the beginning days, and for many days after, and we still ran it... ALOT.

    Now you come along after seven years, and you cant do the same thing that so many players over the years have done?????

    You cant play it the way you want with a pug, you went and built a guild to play the way you wanted, and then weren't happy because that group couldn't run it at break neck speed like people that have run them 500 times.

    You know whats an easier solution.... move onto the next game.

    Most of us complain about a lot that turbine does.... but I don't see many people complaining about the fact that the community wont bow to their wishes, so they deserve to have the game changed to suit that.....

    You complain about people in game.... and your the one making the above post..... really???? REALLY???? I guess I'll use a tag that see much point in using, but in this case it needs to be.... L2P

    I also suggest if you wish to put the closing line to a post like yours above, you may wish to think about what your posting.

  5. #5
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaxx View Post
    You don't like raiding because of the people, but aren't willing to put in the time with a complete group of people who don't know it to learn it and play it.......???????

    Really?????

    So you complain about *elitists* because they... what don't want to play flowersniffer??? they don't want to just drag you along for no reason while you pike????

    You know when those raids were new, those of us who have been here for a while HAD TO LEARN THEM OURSELVES.... how did we do this magical wonderful feat???? WE PLAYED THE RAID AND LEANRED IT..... I know its a mystical concept to some people...

    You don't want elitists, throw up the raid lfms yourself with explicit instructions, or run it with the guild you created... AND RUN THE RAID WITH PEOPLE WHO JUST LEANING IT. If you cant complete it or someone screws up, well learning experience.... chuck it up, and try again.

    Tempest spine blackguards were HORRIBLE..... we still played it.
    Dragon was so broken we had to magic missle her for a LOOONG time to have any chance of beating her... we still played it.
    Titan wasn't beaten until the night before the next update by a rather...slippery solution.... we still banged our heads against the wall trying.
    Demon Queen was never that bad a quest.... so we played it a lot.... except for the whole run all 4 quests before the raid... that sucked and kept people away for a long time.
    Reaver when it first came out wiped a lot of pugs because of the difference of it.... but in no time most pugs knew it and it was farmed constantly.
    Abbot was broken when it came out, broken so many times since then, and you know what... PEOPLE STILL RAN IT and run it....not as pugged as much as others, but its still there.
    Shroud was beat most of the time for the first few months using exploits on harry to beat him, but even after that was changed and people complained about him being a pain to surround and pound... they ran it then , they ran it after, they still run it.
    Hound and vod were two rather unfriendly to pug raids when started, but within a month or two both were being pugged all the time.
    TOD wiped a lot of pugs and guild groups in the beginning days, and for many days after, and we still ran it... ALOT.

    Now you come along after seven years, and you cant do the same thing that so many players over the years have done?????

    You cant play it the way you want with a pug, you went and built a guild to play the way you wanted, and then weren't happy because that group couldn't run it at break neck speed like people that have run them 500 times.

    You know whats an easier solution.... move onto the next game.

    Most of us complain about a lot that turbine does.... but I don't see many people complaining about the fact that the community wont bow to their wishes, so they deserve to have the game changed to suit that.....

    You complain about people in game.... and your the one making the above post..... really???? REALLY???? I guess I'll use a tag that see much point in using, but in this case it needs to be.... L2P

    I also suggest if you wish to put the closing line to a post like yours above, you may wish to think about what your posting.
    I'm assuming you think I'm new, I'm not. None of what you are saying is what I am wishing. I wish that when I joined a raid, people would go, "Oh, he's knew, here's how you do this" not "OMG Noob L2P". I don't want a community to bow to my wishes, I'm saying, why is everyone such a jerk to people like me? I don't want to run it breakneck speeds. I formed a guild, and I love my guildies. When this happened with the raiding, people who joined our guild to help it grow had the mindset of "Raiding, wooo!!!" This was four years ago, mind you. And when we failed, those people moved on to other guilds, guilds with the mindset that I describe above. The "we're better than everyone" mindset. The ones that stayed are fantastic people. Learning the new quests and raids isn't the issue for me. The issue is one group of people pushing for end game to be just raids, one group of people pushing for end game to be TR, and the rest of us are sitting here going "What about us?" That's why I proposed what I did.

    The thread was not intended to call anyone out, it was intended to help bring a solution to all types of gamers, while mentioning that right now, i don't join raids due to the anxiety my wife feels due to the people who are in the raids. Even when we have started a raid ourselves (The first Tempest Spine we did) we set the rules, someone joined who said he knew it and would help us teach it, and then once we were inside, he proceeded to be a total jerk to everyone who was new (which, 10 of us it was our first time, 8 of the others had been playing for around a month.)

    Basically, if I join a raid group, and someone was just willing to play the game, not insult myself or my wife, act like a freaking adult, it would be a much better game climate. But as it is, everyone has formed these cliques, and if you aren't in one of them, you'll just be trash talked. This isn't a competitive game, this isn't Call of Duty, why do so many people act like entitled twelve year old brats who just learned new swear words?

    Anyway, I'm derailing my own thread. That was just there so people would see my point of view. What about the system I suggested, how would that not work? It caters to every play-style, unless I am severely mistaken.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  6. #6
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    i have seen plenty of the elitist behavior that the op describes, but i have never seen it when someone said at the begining that they were new to the raid. whenever someone says that, someone, usually the leader, will take them by the hand and explain everything they need to know, and a few others will offer tips and its quite pleasant.

  7. #7
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    i have seen plenty of the elitist behavior that the op describes, but i have never seen it when someone said at the begining that they were new to the raid. whenever someone says that, someone, usually the leader, will take them by the hand and explain everything they need to know, and a few others will offer tips and its quite pleasant.
    This has been my experience as well.

    Then again, I will not join a quest that says "know it" if I don't. I won't join a quest that says "BYOH" if I cannot or do not want to. Reading the comments in the LFM can often save much heartache over the group makeup.
    /sigh

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Big, long wall of text which I did read.
    Hello OP!

    On some, I aree with you, on other, not so much.

    1. If you are having problems with names calling in Raids... I have seen few of those, but really just few and I raid a LOT. I am the kind of person, that once devised and teached group after group a startegy for FoT, when it was brand new. So, in certain way, you can call me elitist. My solution for your trouble would be: state, that you are new, first runner or whatever. It does not have to be true, but generally - if you are new, then the total jerk of a leader will kick you (and saves your nerves by that), while most other raid leaders, me included, will take care of you. Or at least wont abuse you or your wife.
    2. Unless you have some hard data bout how many ppl raids/TRs/flowersniffs, that part about majority is kinda.. rubbish. No offense, I would say, that we see the group of players that we profile as - when I TR and relevel back on 20 and then 28, Over 50% of ppl that joins my groups are TRs (and I DONT use words like BYOH, know it, TRs only, farm or so in my LFMs). From my perspective, casuals are minority. About raiders... well, tehre are fewer raiders, because there are really just 3 relevant end game raids out there. Its sad, but thats, how it is.
    3. With all respect - you are obviously very specific kind of player - while I would like to help you (and if you are on Cannith server, send me PM here in forums and we form some decent group), the truth is, that there are some ppl out there with completely different wiev of world around ya and they dont want to change their game so it fits you. Its understandable, if selfish.
    4. I like your solution. But I doubt it will ever happen.

  9. #9
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    I think it's a terrible idea to make every quest a raid. Raids should be vastly different from quests, especially given the recent DDO development path. It's very clear that all recent 6 man quests are meant to be soloable. Raids by definition should require teamwork. I would like to see every quest have an epic option, but I don't want to mix raids with quests.

    OP, if you're on Thelanis and want to get into a raiding channel where you will be treated with respect if you reciprocate, please PM me. I will hook you up with a learning channel that will allow you to enter the raiding scene.

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    Also, I cannot help myself but to think - aside from removing the death penalty on experience points, which could save causals some abuse from those really exp insane... You are asking what about you as flowersniffers? Well, what do you exactly want from Turbine (as you are partly addresing turbine in your wall of text)? As flowersniffer, you want story? Well, new quests do have nice story. Oyu want more quests, that can be soloed/duoed/did in small group? You are getting that. You want nice looking scenerys? You are getting that.
    Seriously, right now, only ppl that are not getting what they want are powergamers (shadowfell brought no relevant named end gear whatsoever) and raiders (3 end game relevant raids if you are meele, 1 if you arent meele).

    I do understand that you want to change behaviour of players in the game. I do. But.. what do you want aside from that?

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Funny, op the only time I've seen someone abused in a pug raid was the guy that grabbed the ring and ran straight into the lava in von5 to grief the party, or people that didn't pass their int roll to let the party know they were new and needed direction and ran off the wrong way and caused problems. Which group of these are you in, or is your post fiction?

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Gimps and casuals don't matter, get us some raids worth running.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Now that I actually read the OP's post . . .

    The solution to the OP's issue is become a better player and you won't be excluded.

    I'm serious and uncharacteristically not trolling. You need something to aim for in DDO, aiming to be a good enough player to be a good raider is a goal. Without goals you might as well play farmiville.

  14. #14
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Ah heeeaaaallll no.....

    First, my condolences on your rough experience. However, none of what you suggested would prevent having that experience again.

    Well designed raids are actually designed for large groups. Simply giving quests a "raid button" is a horrible idea. How would you design an Abbot for 6 people? Or Shroud? What about Twilight Forge (Titan P1) - without requiring Dimension Door? Sure it can be done by a small group, but it requires they be very experienced & prepared for the challenge, as well as a bit lucky. Your suggesting that all epic quests be designed like Tempest Spine which can accommodate 12 players or be solo'd at level on elite by somebody prepared for it. /not signed.

    You mentioned in that ginormous op that some people want end game to be all raiding. I've never seen that request anywhere. Now, I've certainly seen (and been a part of) requests for raiding to return to being a meaningful part of end game; but nobody's suggested (that I can find) that it be the entirety of end game.

    I'm guessing you're one of those that hates running Crucible because it takes sooooo long to wait for a swimmer, rather than learning how to do the swim yourself?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  15. #15
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm guessing you're one of those that hates running Crucible because it takes sooooo long to wait for a swimmer, rather than learning how to do the swim yourself?
    No, I love the Crucible. I also love The Pit, Coalescence Chamber, and the other super long, difficult quests. I do the swim myself, it's really not that difficult of a thing .

    And to the person on Thelanis who mentioned a raid channel, I would like that info, and would be glad to be a part of a group of people who were nice when it came to raiding.

    Teh_Troll, I wouldn't say that per se. I do want to be a better player. Right now, I would consider my skill level to be between moderate and high, build ability around the same marks (for most classes, anyway), but my equipment and farming patience is were it get's me. I want a Pinion, for example, and I want to run CitW so that I can finally complete that story (after running through the rest of the quests on every toon I have of level). But, if I don't get it on my first try, I'm not going to farm it every three days or buy bypass timers. I'll get it eventually, and make up for the lack of the Pinion with other gearing choices.

    Charonus, I'll leave my snide remark to you out of this, but I have mentioned your attitude towards people like me before, and you are presenting it again now. The world doesn't have to fit into your extremes. As others have stated, they have seen that attitude before in a raid, I'm not the only one who has seen it. Although, what you describe about VoN5 reminds me of the first VoN I ran, and how we wiped due to me...but that wasn't a grief thing or a new player thing, it was a hilarious turn of events that we all couldn't stop laughing about.

    Last person alive on my first life wiz, level 11, against Velah. She has....well...not a lot of HP left. Someone was telling me what to do and how to do it, and I started to type "Ok, I'm ready"....except I wasn't in chat, and I opened a bunch of windows, and when I hit R........I ran off the side and died..............................yeah........
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post

    Teh_Troll, I wouldn't say that per se. I do want to be a better player. Right now, I would consider my skill level to be between moderate and high, build ability around the same marks (for most classes, anyway), but my equipment and farming patience is were it get's me. I want a Pinion, for example, and I want to run CitW so that I can finally complete that story (after running through the rest of the quests on every toon I have of level). But, if I don't get it on my first try, I'm not going to farm it every three days or buy bypass timers. I'll get it eventually, and make up for the lack of the Pinion with other gearing choices.

    CITW is a year old at this point, one of the few raids still run regualrly. You really can't get in a group? You play on Wayfinder or something?

  17. #17
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post

    Teh_Troll, I wouldn't say that per se. I do want to be a better player. Right now, I would consider my skill level to be between moderate and high, build ability around the same marks (for most classes, anyway), but my equipment and farming patience is were it get's me. I want a Pinion, for example, and I want to run CitW so that I can finally complete that story (after running through the rest of the quests on every toon I have of level). But, if I don't get it on my first try, I'm not going to farm it every three days or buy bypass timers. I'll get it eventually, and make up for the lack of the Pinion with other gearing choices.
    With all due respect, if you don't want to farm a raid item, then you shouldn't be able to have the raid item.

    The whole point of raiding OUGHT to be gaining the best 'gear' in the game. That's what keeps people coming back for more.

    Also, if this comment has any truth to it:
    Anyway, again, if we could find groups where there weren't jerks in the group, the "You only have 500hp? What a freaking moron!" or the "You're on a druid just focus on healing me, idiot" or to my wife, the "You're arti can't heal itself? What are you, stupid?"...we would probably raid more often.
    Then perhaps you aren't as good a player as you think you are? No disrespect intended at all, but if an arti can't heal themselves, there's something seriously wrong. The 500hp thing is no big deal, but if you're joining someone's EE raid it might be? And if they've brought a druid in to fill a 'heal' spot, then expecting them to just heal isn't unrealistic in certain situations.


    This might not be you, but there seem to be too many people in the game who feel like they are entitled to an EE streak (or even an EH streak) when they have no means of contributing at all to completing quests at said difficulty (yes, some people can't contribute even on EH - it's sad).
    There also seem to be too many people who can't contribute to a raid because they cannot follow very simple instructions. Again, I don't know if that's you - but it's an issue.

    Personally I fail to understand how more raids is a bad thing. There needs to be a continuing reward beyond mere gear (ie, back in the day the carrot of a +3 tome kept people on timers for VoD etc). If someone doesn't like raiding, there is no need for them to take part.

  18. #18
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Haven't read the whole thread, just OP so far... that said:

    Look, I'm going to be honest with you, You are your own problem. Not to be rude, but everyone has had these same experiences when they first started out raiding; it's understandable, there is after all a lot to take in. You have to learn how to adjust your play style to a group with 12 people instead of 3-6. In certain raids you have to learn how to control your agro, what your role in the party is, etc. This is especially hard in certain raids that you've never done before and are particularly newb unfriendly.

    Hound is a great example of this; Used to be pugs failed this raid 80% of the time on anything above normal. Why? Because most people were still learning the ropes of not only Hound, but raiding in general.

    Personally the first 4 raids I ever joined on Argo where hosted by a rather infamous guild, AoK. Now these guys are amazing. Some of the fastest, easiest, and certainly the most... er, interesting raids I've ever been in.(12 minute elite shroud when level cap was 20. Lol) But for the most part, I didn't learn a damn thing running with them in the beginning, I even got made fun of a couple times by certain people because I was quite literally a noob.

    But I didn't let 4 raids make me stop. I realized that there are thousands of people on the server, all playing at once, at the time(and to a lesser extent recently) there were 3-4 raids going on at once. 4 is an extremely limited sample size, and to judge the entire community, and to decide that raiding is not for you based on those 4 raids is rather extreme imo. What you experienced is not the norm for raiding, at least not on Argo.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  19. #19
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    With all due respect, if you don't want to farm a raid item, then you shouldn't be able to have the raid item.

    The whole point of raiding OUGHT to be gaining the best 'gear' in the game. That's what keeps people coming back for more.
    Raiding doesn't have to be the only way to get the best gear in game. To keep raiding popular all it has to be is the most efficient way to do so. For instance if the base items were in the flagging quests and they were upgraded with commendations or something; there could be two ways to get the commendations. One way would be a Raid which could have a greater payout and a chance for an even greater payout if you get a lucky roll and perhaps the last quest in the chain before the raid could also have a significantly less payout.

    Thus someone who doesn't enjoy raiding could still progress and earn the rewards of playing the game, just at a likely much slower rate.

  20. #20
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    End game fine, many thing do. You go play now, thank you.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

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