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  1. #1
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Default Devs: About this Obsession

    While the new proposals for Epic Reincarnation are leaps and bounds over your first proposal, I have to ask; what's up with this obsession that to move forward we have to go backwards?

    Won't I basically have to play most of the same quests anyhow, whether it be level 20 or level 28? Especially with having maxed Destinies, I'll be far more powerful than a fresh level 20 who has just activated a Destiny (especially depending on how powerful Epic Past Lives are too, which will make me even more powerful). How compatible will we be in quests? Won't he just resent the fact that I can basically do the quest for him?

    Why is a game where I'm just leveling back up to pick back up a few Feats, a tiny bit of extra HP, and reach ML requirements for gear I already have, superior to a game where I stay at cap and pretty much play the same range of quests anyway (minus a few here and there that are just too easy to bother with and the only reason I'd do them as a level 20 ER is because I'd have to since I would be locked out of higher levels thanks to that silly new level gating mechanism you introduced).

    Is there any way at all to convince you to allow two methods to acquire these "Epic Past Life Feats"? You could split it up and allow those who desire to go back to level 20 the ability to do so, while allowing those of us who'd rather stay at cap do so and just need as much xp as if we were progressing to level 20-28 as a requirement to gain more "Epic Past Life Feats".

    Please, just think it over. Is the easily-seen-through illusion that we have more content really that necessary? Is playing not to acquire gear, but rather to re-equip gear, that great a concept?
    Last edited by eonfreon; 09-21-2013 at 04:47 PM.

  2. #2
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    Well they're just what you called them... Past Life feats. Even going back to 20 isn't so much "Past Life" anymore.

    It's a sacrifice (or relieve to some) to do so. What you ask for is one of the most ridiculous thing i've seen in term of "I want it all for free".

    It started from 1-28 to 20-28 but yet you're not satisfied. I think Turbine gave up enought on this.
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  3. #3
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    This is really the biggest problem I have with the proposed Epic TR system-- people are already powerful enough to complete the most difficult quest -- EE What Goes Up -- without much trouble. Why do we NEED epic past lives, then? It's just another pointless grind.

  4. #4
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Well they're just what you called them... Past Life feats. Even going back to 20 isn't so much "Past Life" anymore.

    It's a sacrifice (or relieve to some) to do so. What you ask for is one of the most ridiculous thing i've seen in term of "I want it all for free".

    It started from 1-28 to 20-28 but yet you're not satisfied. I think Turbine gave up enought on this.
    Oh, so it's a point of semantics? Since they propose to call them Past Life Feats they need to be about Past Lifes. How is it free if I'd have to earn the same amount of xp?

    I'm just wondering about this constant need to "sacrifice" as you put it. If you prefer to go back to level 20, I certainly don't begrudge you that right. So why is it necessary to "sacrifice" my current level.

    It's just a game mechanic. It's not like "that's the way of the universe" or something. They make the rules. They don't have to make it any particular way, unless they really think it's important.

    After all, just don't call them "Epic Past Life Feats" and suddenly they don't have to have anything to do with Past Lives. I don't think it even makes sense to call it "Epic Life Feats" anyway. It's not like you're starting a new life. Just getting hit by a huge Level Drain by some powerful Destiny Vampire lord or something. As far as I know, I'd still be the same person, same class, race, alignment; just level 20 instead of level 28.

  5. #5
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post

    It started from 1-28 to 20-28 but yet you're not satisfied. I think Turbine gave up enought on this.
    BTW, if you really want you'll still have the option to go back to level 1 when you ER. But the fact that Turbine already changed their mind about it being 1-28, just highlights how arbitrary the number really is. They could have made it level 15 or level 23. They just chose level 20 because that's the beginning of the "Epic Journey". It's not a big deal and I really don't think Turbine will budge on it, but I just can't wonder about this obsession of losing levels to gain abilities. XP is XP. What's the real point behind it? It's not like those quests that I'd run at a lower level will be any more challenging or something. Or any more exciting. Instead of just earning new abilities, I'll be earning BACK what I ALREADY had.

    Just don't call it Epic Reincarnation and it doesn't have to have anything to do with "starting anew".

    Sure allow people to Reincarnate to lower levels if they desire. But why is it so important as a requirement?

  6. #6
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    unless im mistaken and im sure someone would correct me if im wrong, but the way ER was proposed and the fact that if you want fate points under the current system it would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone. you could get completionist while earning fate points in off destinies. when i leveled my barb after hitting 20, i pretty much just went up the list and hit 25 in her main destiny running one and done on hard without touching High Road. epic completionist seems like something very easy to get, especially if you don't need to play a divine class for the Divine past life. epic completionist will be much easier to get than heroic completionist and i think that's something that should be addressed.

  7. #7
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    unless im mistaken and im sure someone would correct me if im wrong, but the way ER was proposed and the fact that if you want fate points under the current system it would be killing 2 birds with 1 stone. you could get completionist while earning fate points in off destinies. when i leveled my barb after hitting 20, i pretty much just went up the list and hit 25 in her main destiny running one and done on hard without touching High Road. epic completionist seems like something very easy to get, especially if you don't need to play a divine class for the Divine past life. epic completionist will be much easier to get than heroic completionist and i think that's something that should be addressed.
    I haven't heard anything about Epic completionist. I'll try to look into it some. Heroic completionist is only hard to get because it's so time-consuming since there are so many classes, and people tend to actually go for 3 PL in a class even though that's not a requirement of it, which really makes it a Triple Completionist.

    Not really sure epic completionist being "easier" to get is really much of problem that needs addressing. It's just busy work as far as I can tell.

  8. #8
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I haven't heard anything about Epic completionist. I'll try to look into it some. Heroic completionist is only hard to get because it's so time-consuming since there are so many classes, and people tend to actually go for 3 PL in a class even though that's not a requirement of it, which really makes it a Triple Completionist.

    Not really sure epic completionist being "easier" to get is really much of problem that needs addressing. It's just busy work as far as I can tell.
    Epic completionist was discussed in the original proposal for Epic Destiny Reincarnation.

    I would not count it out in Epic Reincarnation yet.

  9. #9
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    It is busy work which some people want to do and others don't want to do, many people do it simply because there's nothing interesting at 25 and now even less at 28 to do.

    Thing is the whole game is busy work, its just that many of us actively want to do it. The thing that bothers me is that segments of this forum are actively campaigning again the busy work that others like in favor of the busy work they prefer.

    There's no reason ER can't coexist with a raiding end game, TR coexisted with old end game just fine, in fact a 20th completion list was often the bellwether for the next TR.

    Except that the devs seem determined to pit us against each other with recent "we can only focus on so much" language. They seem to be actively pushing away the players who like to have SOMETHING THERE AT CAP TO DO WITH OUR FINISHED CHARACTERS. Certianly attrition numbers show that the current direction is having that effect even if they don't want to push away "end game players" (again those being: people who like the idea of having something to do at cap) its having that effect.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-22-2013 at 01:14 AM.
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    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  10. #10
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    The whole point is you have to give some power up for a least a little while to gain more to do this while not giving up anything is pointless and they should just give ups maxed power characters and forget the whole thing.

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  11. #11
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    On top of the 'why should people even have to earn anything' point, there is another point there. Putting people back to 20 to level up agian also puts people back in the lower epic ranges and encourages a wider variety of content and playing with a wider range of players without hitting a power level for those 20 -24 crowds. People are always complaining about the lack of lfm's as it is, while this won't be a solution and magically fix it all, it will alleviate the problem and give people a reason to keep questing and playing with each other (or for the really determined to keep questing solo).

    I think a lot more goes into the decisions at Turbine than just 'they have to gain x amount of xp to get y bonus'. But as i'm no a dev, I have no idea what else might have gone into it, but the dev's would have to have never read the forums in their entire lives not to have at least considered this.
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  12. #12
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    On top of the 'why should people even have to earn anything' point, there is another point there. Putting people back to 20 to level up agian also puts people back in the lower epic ranges and encourages a wider variety of content and playing with a wider range of players without hitting a power level for those 20 -24 crowds. People are always complaining about the lack of lfm's as it is, while this won't be a solution and magically fix it all, it will alleviate the problem and give people a reason to keep questing and playing with each other (or for the really determined to keep questing solo).

    I think a lot more goes into the decisions at Turbine than just 'they have to gain x amount of xp to get y bonus'. But as i'm no a dev, I have no idea what else might have gone into it, but the dev's would have to have never read the forums in their entire lives not to have at least considered this.
    Except, this won't fix the Epic LFM problem at all. Yeah, you'll see a few more Von3 and Impossible Demands LFMs, but people are still going to stay far away from any of the Shadowfail quests.

    It's the very same as the problem encountered from 17-20: you have a wide variety of quests available to you but people still run Vale and Reaver's Reach exclusively. At Epic levels, people will continue to run the MOTU quests on EH because they give the best and easiest exp. Shadowfail quests are very long and do not give nearly the amount of exp they should to justify the time involved. They are the Epic equivalent of Amrath.

  13. #13
    Community Member Vallar's Avatar
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    I am with you OP with this one. I can't really understand what kind of intelligence would force me to play a week or so (let's say constant play here without any XP buying) of a class I don't want to play, don't like to play and hate just so I can get a +10 HP. Not only that, but you get to play it 3 times if you want it 30 instead of 10.

    This isn't a good system in my honest opinion. People PLAY games, to have FUN; if I want to do something I don't like, I have a RL filled with that kind of stuff. I come here to play.

    Wasting a whole time of work and grind just to get to 28 (for me since it is the first character, it means 3 months) so I can go back to level 1 and I get 20 SP and +1 DC (since I was a sorc) is just plain stupid and I did it solely because at 28, I finished all the content and don't have anything else to do. After parking the character for a month and almost capping 3 other characters I got bored of parking my main.

    The same applies to epic, why in the world would I want to go back. It kills the sense of achievement, it FORCES me to redo the content (specially those quests I hate) instead of giving me the option to do the content I like.

    I am not going to say I am an expert in game design (I am not) but with what I have read and spent 6 years studying, everything I know, read, tested and tried always tried to reduce grinding or at least mask it in a way that made it FUN (see a pattern with FUN here?). I have to say Turbine, you just defied that literally by making the entire game a big grind -- we aren't mindless machines playing.
    The normal grind any MMO has (which I am completely fine with and actually don't mind)
    The scroll, seal, item system?
    TRing a gazillion lives or find nothing else to do?
    Epic TRing or find nothing to do? I am sure there are more...

    Amidst all that, you penalize the people that grind; TR and you have to suffer with extra XP to gain. Grind a chest for an item, and you get ransack. Grind a quest for XP/Loot/etc... you get ransack. I am sure there is a lot more.

    Please, don't create a problem and to patch it up, rather than fix it, you penalize us. At least give us the people that don't want to fall in your mistakes something to do. Give us an option whether we TR/ETR or do something else to get the same result (or at least a similar one).

    Sorry for the long post/rant.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    It seems their intent is to hurry everyone through heroic levels and then have them reside in epic levels for the majority of the game.
    1. More and more xp bonuses
    2. Veteran Status 2
    3. XP tokens from the dice
    4. Ottos Boxes
    5. Low lvl items growing more and more powerful
    6. Epic TR

    Why they want to kill off their heroic content, I haven't the foggiest clue. It seems counterproductive to bringing in new blood.

  15. #15
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    While the new proposals for Epic Reincarnation are leaps and bounds over your first proposal, I have to ask; what's up with this obsession that to move forward we have to go backwards?

    Won't I basically have to play most of the same quests anyhow, whether it be level 20 or level 28? Especially with having maxed Destinies, I'll be far more powerful than a fresh level 20 who has just activated a Destiny (especially depending on how powerful Epic Past Lives are too, which will make me even more powerful). How compatible will we be in quests? Won't he just resent the fact that I can basically do the quest for him?

    Why is a game where I'm just leveling back up to pick back up a few Feats, a tiny bit of extra HP, and reach ML requirements for gear I already have, superior to a game where I stay at cap and pretty much play the same range of quests anyway (minus a few here and there that are just too easy to bother with and the only reason I'd do them as a level 20 ER is because I'd have to since I would be locked out of higher levels thanks to that silly new level gating mechanism you introduced).

    Is there any way at all to convince you to allow two methods to acquire these "Epic Past Life Feats"? You could split it up and allow those who desire to go back to level 20 the ability to do so, while allowing those of us who'd rather stay at cap do so and just need as much xp as if we were progressing to level 20-28 as a requirement to gain more "Epic Past Life Feats".

    Please, just think it over. Is the easily-seen-through illusion that we have more content really that necessary? Is playing not to acquire gear, but rather to re-equip gear, that great a concept?
    You know, I commented on this in the "let me play my primary destiny to get all my fate points" thread, and it's nice to see I wasn't far off. Now, not only do you want to gain fate points w/out ever leaving a single destiny, but you want to get past life feats w/out actually TRing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I think a lot more goes into the decisions at Turbine than just 'they have to gain x amount of xp to get y bonus'.
    -Making money (Probably the most important point since DDO's biggest revenue are most likely linked to the TR mechanic)
    -Longetivity of the game
    -Giving something to aim for the one looking for maximum power
    -Balancing people into different level ranges
    -Even though this might not be positive to the players: less content is needed because of replayability (guessing here).


    Now the more power a player acquires through time (TR here), the more likely he is to stick around so he doesn't lose everything even though this is just a game. It's one thing to want to shape the game around our individual needs... but it should be when it comes to gameplay in general only, not for optional stuff which you don't even need to fully enjoy the game. There are reasons behind the mechanic.

    Seems like envy again. I don't want to make the sacrifice (not that it's really a sacrifice but it's how it's meant to be I think) but I still want the same power that everyone's willing to "work" harder than me to acquire.


    About the semantic call with "Past Life"... well wether we like it or not, the mechanic is how it is so it's not semantic when it's actually reality. Wouldn't make much sense if now they'd call it "Crystals of Power" or anything... which you'd get by... getting exp?
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  17. #17
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    You know, I commented on this in the "let me play my primary destiny to get all my fate points" thread, and it's nice to see I wasn't far off. Now, not only do you want to gain fate points w/out ever leaving a single destiny, but you want to get past life feats w/out actually TRing.
    I don't really care a whit about TRing. But I would certainly prefer to play a game with linear progression rather than circular progression.

    Playtime is playtime. I would rather it be more enjoyable rather than less enjoyable, pardon my saying so. I would still have to play the game to achieve the goals. To me the idea of have to give up something to gain something, isn't some sacred idea. It's just an idea. It's not "the way of the universe" or something.

    In a game with little to no competition, I don't understand why some folks feel that asking for certain things to be asking for things to be too easy. Especially when all I'm asking is a way to promote playing in a way I would consider more enjoyable. If it's the same required xp, it's basically the same amount of work. The fact that it may be more enjoyable work doesn't mean that suddenly it's an "easy button" or something. Yes, I do find it "easier" to do things I enjoy more. What's the problem with that? Am I not supposed to enjoy playing a game?

    The reason TRing won't ever be changed is because it's too profitable. Xp potions and Otto's Boxes sell too well, so I know that won't be changed.

    And I certainly don't think ER will change just because I ask for it. But I would like to know the reasoning behind Turbine's decision to continue to create systems that are about "Pain for Gain", as they've put it. The only thing I can think of it that by creating systems that irritate some people Turbine banks on the fact that they can sell ways to alleviate that irritant.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 09-22-2013 at 02:36 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Seems like envy again. I don't want to make the sacrifice (not that it's really a sacrifice but it's how it's meant to be I think) but I still want the same power that everyone's willing to "work" harder than me to acquire.
    Actually I'm willing to do as much "work" as anyone else, I would just rather do it in a way that's more enjoyable to me. Which means I'll play more. I envy people who enjoy the system that I don't, if you must demonize my motives.

  19. #19
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    On top of the 'why should people even have to earn anything' point, there is another point there. Putting people back to 20 to level up agian also puts people back in the lower epic ranges and encourages a wider variety of content and playing with a wider range of players without hitting a power level for those 20 -24 crowds. People are always complaining about the lack of lfm's as it is, while this won't be a solution and magically fix it all, it will alleviate the problem and give people a reason to keep questing and playing with each other (or for the really determined to keep questing solo).

    I think a lot more goes into the decisions at Turbine than just 'they have to gain x amount of xp to get y bonus'. But as i'm no a dev, I have no idea what else might have gone into it, but the dev's would have to have never read the forums in their entire lives not to have at least considered this.
    The thing is a Reincarnated level 20 with a max Destiny and Twists will be so much more powerful than a brand new level 20 who's just claimed a destiny, that I just don't see them coexisting too well in the content.

    There are generally less lfm's because there are less players, or less players willing to PuG. ER can add a little more interest in LFMs, especially if it brings back a lot of players. Encouraging people to play a wider variety of content is one thing, but mandating it as the only way to continue to advance your character, is quite another.

  20. #20
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    The thing is a Reincarnated level 20 with a max Destiny and Twists will be so much more powerful than a brand new level 20 who's just claimed a destiny, that I just don't see them coexisting too well in the content.

    There are generally less lfm's because there are less players, or less players willing to PuG. ER can add a little more interest in LFMs, especially if it brings back a lot of players. Encouraging people to play a wider variety of content is one thing, but mandating it as the only way to continue to advance your character, is quite another.
    when the level cap was 20 there were 2 ways to advance your Character
    1) stay at cap and farm gear
    2) TR for past life feat
    these were really your only 2 options 1 or the other


    with ER there will be more options to advance a Charicter
    1) Stay at cap and farm gear
    2) focus on unlocking all fate points for twists if you have not already
    3) ER to gain an Epic Past life feat
    4) TR to gain a heroic past life feat

    with more options that can be combined into the same life

    I can only assume that you say mandating ER as the only way to continue to advance your character because, there are no new end game raids currently and I agree we need more of those.
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 09-22-2013 at 06:18 PM.

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