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  1. #1

    Default Devs: What happened to my End Game?

    What happened to End Game, Devs?

    Let me cast your mind back: Level cap was 20, and we had a variety of loot that was applicable to lots of different builds coming from raids as diverse as Visions of Destruction, The Shroud, Hound of Xoriat, The Devil You Know (aka ToD), and people still ran Reaver's Refuge, Abbot, Titan, ADQ2 and Reaver's Pike for items that they wanted that fit them and there builds.

    It was good. There was community at End game. People banded together and ran all these raids together, repeatedly, and DDO felt like an MMO. You know, a 'Massively Multiplayer' experience. Not the solo TR grind we have today.

    Solve this problem through more raid content. Not just one raid, or two, but give us back the meaningful selection we used to have. Explode content from 24 onwards for raid sized parties. Why not have 12 man quests, and not just boss beat downs? Why not have 24 man boss beat raids? Have intricate, interesting, functional loot drops that are BtCoA and none of this "I'll just go trade if off the ASAH" nonsense.

    Hear me Devs, or it will be time to vote with the Wallet and play for free, and spend my £ elsewhere thanks.

    To the players out there: Wake up, please. Voice your opinion/keep voicing your opinion and get us back the end game we deserve. Not this constant TR treadmill we all have now.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Everything was better back when...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post

    Let me cast your mind back: Level cap was 20, and we had a variety of loot that was applicable to lots of different builds coming from raids as diverse as Visions of Destruction, The Shroud, Hound of Xoriat, The Devil You Know (aka ToD), and people still ran Reaver's Refuge, Abbot, Titan, ADQ2 and Reaver's Pike for items that they wanted that fit them and there builds.

    It was good.
    Nobody was running Titan. Hardly anyone ran Abbott (didn't help it was broken half of the time). No one enjoyed running ADQ for the millionth time, but did it for the torc. People ran the remaining 3-4 raids because there was nothing else to do, the seal/shard/scroll drops were horrible, and green steel was still some of the best stuff in the game.


    People were so bored with those quests they were running them drunk, complaining whenever a new person didn't do everything correctly, and running to the forums to whine about taking more than 2 rounds to beat down Harry. No one liked (or still likes) the shard/seal/scroll loot system.

    It was far from good. (The forums were also a LOT nastier then btw)


    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    There was community at End game. People banded together and ran all these raids together, repeatedly, and DDO felt like an MMO. You know, a 'Massively Multiplayer' experience. Not the solo TR grind we have today.

    Actually there are plenty of folks who band together and play all the content together as TRs, it's a lot of fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Solve this problem through more raid content. Not just one raid, or two, but give us back the meaningful selection we used to have.

    Since eGH there have in fact been SIX epic level (22 and above) raids players can run, and yet the same folks calling for 'the good old days' seem to forget this fact. The same amount of content is there, but the loot you like is far easier to get now. If Turbine had kept the scroll/seal/shard drops the grinders longing for the 'good old days' would still be grinding those quests like Starbucks grinds coffee beans.


    If those raids we had to run back in the day were so great, you'd still see plenty of people still running them. But that isn't the case. The raid-grinders really just want top tier loot, and that is why they grind raids. But enough of the player base complained that the loot was too hard to get and they didn't want to keep grinding the same old content, so Turbine made it easier to get the good loot.

    And now people complain about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post

    To the players out there: Wake up, please. Voice your opinion/keep voicing your opinion and get us back the end game we deserve. Not this constant TR treadmill we all have now.
    I think they did. With their wallets. Which is why the content is designed for the largest group of paying customers out there: casuals.
    Last edited by Postumus; 09-20-2013 at 07:25 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Nobody was running Titan. Hardly anyone ran Abbott (didn't help it was broken half of the time). No one enjoyed running ADQ for the millionth time, but did it for the torc. People ran the remaining 3-4 raids because there was nothing else to do, the seal/shard/scroll drops were horrible, and green steel was still some of the best stuff in the game.


    People were so bored with those quests they were running them drunk, complaining whenever a new person didn't do everything correctly, and running to the forums to whine about taking more than 2 rounds to beat down Harry. No one liked (or still likes) the shard/seal/scroll loot system.

    It was far from good. (The forums were also a LOT nastier then btw)





    Actually there are plenty of folks who band together and play all the content together as TRs, it's a lot of fun.





    Since eGH there have in fact been SIX epic level (22 and above) raids players can run, and yet the same folks calling for 'the good old days' seem to forget this fact. The same amount of content is there, but the loot you like is far easier to get now. If Turbine had kept the scroll/seal/shard drops the grinders longing for the 'good old days' would still be grinding those quests like Starbucks grinds coffee beans.


    If those raids we had to run back in the day were so great, you'd still see plenty of people still running them. But that isn't the case. The raid-grinders really just want top tier loot, and that is why they grind raids. But enough of the player base complained that the loot was too hard to get and they didn't want to keep grinding the same old content, so Turbine made it easier to get the good loot.

    And now people complain about that.




    I think they did. With their wallets. Which is why the content is designed for the largest group of paying customers out there: casuals.
    Just to respond to a couple things...if no one was running Titan or Abbot, how come I have 3 Chattering Rings, 1 Belt of Brute Strength, 1 Seven Fingered Gloves, 4 Litanies of the Dead, 2 Staves of the Petitioner, 4 sets of Vile Blasphemy, 1 Quiver of Alarcity, a couple tomes pulled from them piled between Cannith and Thelanis. Most of those on increments of 20, so yeah some folks were running them, and ran them alot.

    ADQ was more then Torc. If melee Chaos Blade and Mari Chain were nice items, if PM Bracers of Demon Consort were highly sought after. Bramble Casters were a nice TR staple. Green Blade also had it's uses.

    Again the forums complained about TR grinding too. Recall all those "You Died on my XP Run, You neg 10 XP Noob threads?"

    I will give you, not many liked the seal/shard/scroll combo. That IMO was mostly due to alot of junk being made epic and in larger zones like Sands, you had an equal chance of pulling some garbage combo rather then a coveted one. Random is bad.

    The forums have been largely quiet. The new layout killed it for many, heck even #1 or #2 fanboi ( as he calls himself) hated it. Because folks left something they hated, doesn't mean all is well with the game. Correlation does not equal Causation.

    The fact that those raids still extisted was dwarfed by the diminishing returns on running it. There was little to no reason to do so. You do it for the challenge a few times, you keep coming back because either the xp or the loot is that good. Strip away the loot and you have folks flocking to EN Von3 runs for quick xp and avoiding alot else because it's not worth anything more then a 1st time thru xp run.

    Turbine could have made it easier to attain decent loot without stomping existing loot into the ground. They chose the easy way out. Now, as a short-sighted person I would not mind the easy way out. As far sighted person I mind it very much as it only stands to reason, without xp, without loot, there is only friends that keep you logging in. Once they stop, many more will in their footfalls. As bad as the seal/shard/scroll combo was it was a carrot that kept folks going for things. Now they just rain down and you can't give them away faster then you loot them. There is a point where too much is, too much. And we are here.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    I remember running 7 Reavers a night every three days! That was the glorious end game!

    The game went to heck after they added the Shroud, so I choose only to remember a certain aspect of the games history and will think fondly of those times and demand that the devs return the game to its state at that point.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    Just to respond to a couple things...if no one was running Titan or Abbot, how come I have 3 Chattering Rings, 1 Belt of Brute Strength, 1 Seven Fingered Gloves, 4 Litanies of the Dead, 2 Staves of the Petitioner, 4 sets of Vile Blasphemy, 1 Quiver of Alarcity, a couple tomes pulled from them piled between Cannith and Thelanis. Most of those on increments of 20, so yeah some folks were running them, and ran them alot.

    ADQ was more then Torc. If melee Chaos Blade and Mari Chain were nice items, if PM Bracers of Demon Consort were highly sought after. Bramble Casters were a nice TR staple. Green Blade also had it's uses.
    And you just listed all the antique junk I have destroyed to make space for far better loot.

    End game loot from 3-5 years ago is no longer end game. It's antique.

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    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

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  6. #6
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    And you just listed all the antique junk I have destroyed to make space for far better loot.

    End game loot from 3-5 years ago is no longer end game. It's antique.
    Not strictly true, Hendrik, a few items are still relevant 25+ and quite a few are solid twink gear for levels 20 to 23+.

    But I get your point
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    You can share your TR grind... you don't have to solo, it's your choice. Raiding scene was great, but those days are gone now. Producer Rowan wrote that very few people are actually raiding or at least care about it... Yeah, they still plan to make a raid for level 30, but you can guess how successfull it will be if they implement epic TR as well, dividing the epic ready characters between level 20 and 30...

  8. #8

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    His point is valid. There was a time when there was actually a lot of raiding, a lot of great guilds and a great community. Now it's folks buying Ottos box and thinking they are oh so cool on their 15th TR when in fact they're on the hamster mill for no reason, as there is nothing to get better to do.

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    To all those people saying DDO has a healthy end game at present I have one comment, "Get Real".

    TRing is all well and good, but there should be something after the TRing, as it is at the moment theres just empty content and 'Mary Celestes' adrift in the skies of Eberron.

    Sadly even with half the player base (compared to 2years ago) Turbine is probably still making more money, from Ottos Boxes, ths ASAH and other store bought goodies, does that mean we have a higher quality of product though?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    No one liked (or still likes) the shard/seal/scroll loot system.
    I kinda liked it.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ycheese123 View Post
    I kinda liked it.
    Agreed.

    The system was fine, it was the low drop-rates that were the issue.

  12. #12
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    I liked it as well, drop rates on some things needed a tweak, it didn't need the axe.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Agreed.

    The system was fine, it was the low drop-rates that were the issue.
    And the drop rates were only borked basically in the desert.
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    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Agreed.

    The system was fine, it was the low drop-rates that were the issue.
    I agree, the seal/shard system is still great and much more rewarding in the end than getting complete items right away. It creates a sense of progress and gives replay value to the quests. In packs with more quests and fewer items like Red Fens and House P the system worked very well. Maybe you had to run the quest 20 or 50 times, but eventually you would get the item you wanted. I think it the droprates were alright too for VON, and I liked that shards for rare items like the Red Dragon Armor and Sword of Shadows had low droprates. This created much replay value, since the thought of getting these extremely awesome items were a real motivation to keep you playing.

  15. #15
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    Since I cant see anyone pointing to this in the thread, check out this thread;

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...me#post5064256

    Basicaly Producer Rowan and Vargouille saying that they plan for a lvl 30 level cap for a long time and that they will build up a new "endgame" at level 30 much like our prior lvl 20 "endgame".

    Its on the horizon though since lvl cap 30 is estimated for later part of 2014 (probably a new expansion), so we will just have to roll with it and hope for a fun time until they get to that point development wise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    Just to respond to a couple things...if no one was running Titan or Abbot, how come I have 3 Chattering Rings, 1 Belt of Brute Strength, 1 Seven Fingered Gloves, 4 Litanies of the Dead, 2 Staves of the Petitioner, 4 sets of Vile Blasphemy, 1 Quiver of Alarcity, a couple tomes pulled from them piled between Cannith and Thelanis. Most of those on increments of 20, so yeah some folks were running them, and ran them alot.

    ADQ was more then Torc. If melee Chaos Blade and Mari Chain were nice items, if PM Bracers of Demon Consort were highly sought after. Bramble Casters were a nice TR staple. Green Blade also had it's uses.

    Again the forums complained about TR grinding too. Recall all those "You Died on my XP Run, You neg 10 XP Noob threads?"

    I will give you, not many liked the seal/shard/scroll combo. That IMO was mostly due to alot of junk being made epic and in larger zones like Sands, you had an equal chance of pulling some garbage combo rather then a coveted one. Random is bad.

    The forums have been largely quiet. The new layout killed it for many, heck even #1 or #2 fanboi ( as he calls himself) hated it. Because folks left something they hated, doesn't mean all is well with the game. Correlation does not equal Causation.

    The fact that those raids still extisted was dwarfed by the diminishing returns on running it. There was little to no reason to do so. You do it for the challenge a few times, you keep coming back because either the xp or the loot is that good. Strip away the loot and you have folks flocking to EN Von3 runs for quick xp and avoiding alot else because it's not worth anything more then a 1st time thru xp run.

    Turbine could have made it easier to attain decent loot without stomping existing loot into the ground. They chose the easy way out. Now, as a short-sighted person I would not mind the easy way out. As far sighted person I mind it very much as it only stands to reason, without xp, without loot, there is only friends that keep you logging in. Once they stop, many more will in their footfalls. As bad as the seal/shard/scroll combo was it was a carrot that kept folks going for things. Now they just rain down and you can't give them away faster then you loot them. There is a point where too much is, too much. And we are here.
    Again, while many of you convince yourself that good loot gives you a reason to grind raids, the truth is most people don't buy into that. The loot isn't needed, and there's no reason to actually grind for it, except to have a trophy. If people want an endgame, then build an endgame. Grinding for needless loot isn't an endgame. It's something you do to prepare yourself for endgame. Now that they've added TRing and are adding EPIC TR, no one is going to buy into this idea that it's fun to grind the same raids for loot that isn't needed to do anything. People did it before because there was nothing else to do.

  17. #17
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Again, while many of you convince yourself that good loot gives you a reason to grind raids, the truth is most people don't buy into that. The loot isn't needed, and there's no reason to actually grind for it, except to have a trophy. If people want an endgame, then build an endgame. Grinding for needless loot isn't an endgame. It's something you do to prepare yourself for endgame. Now that they've added TRing and are adding EPIC TR, no one is going to buy into this idea that it's fun to grind the same raids for loot that isn't needed to do anything. People did it before because there was nothing else to do.
    TR didnt exist back then? Thanks I didn't realise.


    Oh wait it did exist.........so your arguement that people ran raids because there wasn't anything else to do is false........... load of ****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    TR didnt exist back then? Thanks I didn't realise.


    Oh wait it did exist.........so your arguement that people ran raids because there wasn't anything else to do is false........... load of ****.
    Perhaps you're new, but TRing has been greatly expanded and has become DDO's endgame. The point still stands, if players want a different endgame, then build a proper endgame. Grinding for loot that is never needed obviously doesn't make a proper endgame or make raids popular. If it did, these few people complaining would be running all the old raids, since they offer the same benefit as their "dream endgame": needless loot.

  19. #19
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Perhaps you're new, but TRing has been greatly expanded and has become DDO's endgame. The point still stands, if players want a different endgame, then build a proper endgame. Grinding for loot that is never needed obviously doesn't make a proper endgame or make raids popular. If it did, these few people complaining would be running all the old raids, since they offer the same benefit as their "dream endgame": needless loot.
    Please stop you have no idea what raiders want and are making a fool out of yourself.

  20. #20
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Please stop you have no idea what raiders want and are making a fool out of yourself.
    lol he was saying I was new? Thats the thing the loot wasn't needless back then........but you know theres no relationship between raid loot becoming obsolete and the raids no longer being run anymore I mean those facts have nothing to do with it, It would be the same if all the benifits from doing a TR was removed......people who still TR............yeah they would.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Perhaps you're new, but TRing has been greatly expanded and has become DDO's endgame. The point still stands, if players want a different endgame, then build a proper endgame. Grinding for loot that is never needed obviously doesn't make a proper endgame or make raids popular. If it did, these few people complaining would be running all the old raids, since they offer the same benefit as their "dream endgame": needless loot.
    Oh so they made TR more attractive did they? So that increased the popularity of TR right? It makes sense..........so making the main purpose to raid no longer useful............that should affect the popularity of raiding wouldn't it? I mean basic cause and effect? So if they then put in a new raid and made some good loot and benifits to the raid..........no one will run it right? Cause Tring is the only *endgame*.......no one would put off their tr to try and get 20 completions of the new raid.........there is just no way that would happen.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 09-21-2013 at 11:21 AM.

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