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Thread: Rune Arm DC's

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    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Default Rune Arm DC's

    So how exactly are Rune arm DC's determined?

    And is there a way to see what the current DC is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    So how exactly are Rune arm DC's determined?

    And is there a way to see what the current DC is?
    At endgame for epic elite at least, I'm pretty sure it's just 5% success rate. They have to roll a 1 sometimes. It's just a shame so many runearms are reflex based and evadable.
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    This is the formula reported on the wiki:

    10 + (Charge Tier + 1) + (INT modifier) + (Max Charge Tier - 1) + (Evocation Feat Bonuses)
    Evocation item bonuses are not factored in.

    This formula was tested and determined before epic destinies came out. My own casual observations (no actual testing) suggest that epic destiny abilities (i.e. draconic's precise casting and magister's evocation specialist) are also not factored in. When comparing reflex save based rune arms to my reflex save based spells, I noticed significantly more saves/evades against the rune arms than the spells, more than what would be expected if the only difference was the +2 dc from an item, and about what I would expect if the rune arm was also not getting the +5 from precise casting and evocation specialist. Again, this is based on casual observations only, so take it for what it's worth.
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    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Evocation item bonuses are not factored in.

    This formula was tested and determined before epic destinies came out. My own casual observations (no actual testing) suggest that epic destiny abilities (i.e. draconic's precise casting and magister's evocation specialist) are also not factored in. When comparing reflex save based rune arms to my reflex save based spells, I noticed significantly more saves/evades against the rune arms than the spells, more than what would be expected if the only difference was the +2 dc from an item, and about what I would expect if the rune arm was also not getting the +5 from precise casting and evocation specialist. Again, this is based on casual observations only, so take it for what it's worth.
    That makes sense and jives with my experience. It would explain why I have such higher damage on Fortitude save Rune arms (Turmoil Within) then Reflex save rune arms (Arching Sky). As much as I would like to have an area of effect Rune Arm there are too many evasion mobs out that just save to high heaven, even though my DC's are higher enough that my TD lands a lot.
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    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    That makes sense and jives with my experience. It would explain why I have such higher damage on Fortitude save Rune arms (Turmoil Within) then Reflex save rune arms (Arching Sky). As much as I would like to have an area of effect Rune Arm there are too many evasion mobs out that just save to high heaven, even though my DC's are higher enough that my TD lands a lot.
    Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

    When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

    This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.
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    Default Corruption

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

    When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

    This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.
    This is the rune arm I use almost exclusively beyond L20 and its effective (still use Toven's, etc. from time to time depending on quest):

    http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Corrupt...evel_24%29.jpg

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    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.
    Same here, I remained attached to the Lucid Dreams for a long time. Thought it was jiving with my (old) kinetic lore boosts and such. Then I tried out the Turmoil Within and was seeing an average of near double the numbers. Haven't looked back. Only use force when I am after something that is immune to acid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

    When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

    This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.
    Combined with the Potency (Should you choose to wear greenscale instead of blue) and synergy with Draconic Acid, it's a definite winner. It's all over artificer forums but everyone will tell you the "Shot" Types are best for damage, even with new evasion mechanics (which seem buggy considering I evade frost lances and I don't have evasion).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    Same here, I remained attached to the Lucid Dreams for a long time. Thought it was jiving with my (old) kinetic lore boosts and such. Then I tried out the Turmoil Within and was seeing an average of near double the numbers. Haven't looked back. Only use force when I am after something that is immune to acid.
    I must be the lone hold out here - I use Archaic Device for all the synergy with artie spells (and b/c force is a will save). It does something like 80% more damage than Lucid Dreams. I switched for a bit, b/c of the 6% force spell crit (which seems like a joke now, after Update 19) and my damage output vastly dropped. Quickly put Lucid back in the bank, moved back to Archaic, nice damage output again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I must be the lone hold out here - I use Archaic Device for all the synergy with artie spells (and b/c force is a will save). It does something like 80% more damage than Lucid Dreams. I switched for a bit, b/c of the 6% force spell crit (which seems like a joke now, after Update 19) and my damage output vastly dropped. Quickly put Lucid back in the bank, moved back to Archaic, nice damage output again.
    You are not alone!

    I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    ....With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. ....

    The way those are supposed to work - those are leftover shots that will hover/spin at the target site, and are fully capable of damaging any other mobs that move into them. But that's only supposed to happen if the the mob is killed.

    Whether the most recent updates have changed how those shots bahave, I couldn't say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    You are not alone!

    I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.
    I am enjoying the Artie too much, I plan on TRing my Rogue into a caster/ranged focused artie.

    I am going to have to check out the synergy with the Archno tree and the Archaic Device. That does make a ton of sense to me about the damage output.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    The way those are supposed to work - those are leftover shots that will hover/spin at the target site, and are fully capable of damaging any other mobs that move into them. But that's only supposed to happen if the the mob is killed.

    Whether the most recent updates have changed how those shots bahave, I couldn't say.
    My last test was pre U19, so I tested it again.
    I fired 50 times with a fully charged EH Corruption of Nature against the training dummy from various angles and distances. I always hit 3 of 5 projectiles, the last two keep spinning around the dummy for a moment and disappear.

    To keep this test fair, I did the same with the Archaic Device and noticed a similar problem. I don't see any force projectiles spinning around the dummy, but according to the combat log only 22 out of 50 times all of the five projectiles hit the dummy. Usually its four projectiles (45 out of 50 shots) and only sometimes (5 out of 50) three projectiles.
    Because I don't see the remaining projectiles, I'm not sure if this is just a display/combat log issue or maybe even the same bug.

    It would be great if someone could do the same test to verify my observations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    You are not alone!

    I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.
    I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

    And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

    Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

    And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

    Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.
    Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...
    What enhancements? You mean the 4% crit chance from arcanotechnician? 4% is not worth switching to energy burst electric because you would then need to slot electric spell power somewhere. That's the beauty of Corruption, it comes with spell power on it so you don't have to give up the red slot on Needle. Plus, if you're slotting electric you probably aren't slotting force, which lessens the value of Archaic Device. And there's no other rune arm worth mentioning for endgame beyond Corruption and Archaic, certainly not any of the electric ones. So why not use the energy burst that matches the highest damage rune arm?

    The SLAs are garbage imo. I tried em and got rid of em. The damage they do is so little that they aren't worth stopping my other sources of damage to fit them into rotation. The only useful time to use them imo is when you've run out of spell points, and that almost never happens to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaeton_Seraph View Post
    Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...
    Personally my arti is more invested in the Battle Engineer tree. But regardless my acid spell power is higher than my electrical. Currently I only have a +90 for both corrosion and electric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    My last test was pre U19, so I tested it again.
    I fired 50 times with a fully charged EH Corruption of Nature against the training dummy from various angles and distances. I always hit 3 of 5 projectiles, the last two keep spinning around the dummy for a moment and disappear.

    To keep this test fair, I did the same with the Archaic Device and noticed a similar problem. I don't see any force projectiles spinning around the dummy, but according to the combat log only 22 out of 50 times all of the five projectiles hit the dummy. Usually its four projectiles (45 out of 50 shots) and only sometimes (5 out of 50) three projectiles.
    Because I don't see the remaining projectiles, I'm not sure if this is just a display/combat log issue or maybe even the same bug.

    It would be great if someone could do the same test to verify my observations.
    I have seen this problem with the training dummy as well.

    Fortunately I have seen it less so with actual enemies in combat. It definitely appears when a target is killed early with the first or second shot, the rest will float around. But usually in normal combat the shots are much more successful in all of them hitting (provided they don't hit a wall or something)
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

    In my test (50 fully charged shots with both runearms), archaic device did an average of 432 dmg (recalculated to 100 sp and non helpless) and corruption of nature did 364. Thats 18% more damage in favor of the archaic device.

    And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

    I bet you that blade barrier is equivalent to energy burst in terms of damage, it just takes longer (but procs more shiradi fun). But I admit I haven't tested that.

    Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.
    But that spellpower directly influences the runearm damage, which is a big part of an arty's damage output. I'm not sure whats more
    comments in red

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    Default TY for testing

    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    comments in red
    I'm not high enough level to test yet, but last time at end game I found my self only using Archaic, Corruption and Toven's. Mostly used the Corruption with my set-up. I'm back up to L18 so I cant wait to test.

    You info was really helpful. TY for testing.

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