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Thread: Rune Arm DC's

  1. #21
    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    I bet you that blade barrier is equivalent to energy burst in terms of damage, it just takes longer (but procs more shiradi fun). But I admit I haven't tested that.
    Well considering my energy burst does a minimum off about 1500 upwards of 5000, only costs 20 spell points, can be fired fairly frequently and doesn't require a bunch of kiting.

    While my BB if they don't make their save averages about 500-600, costs more than double SP (for maximized) and the mobs need to be kited.

    I would have to say the energy burst is definitely the way to go.

    Main thing BB has going for it, is you don't need to have teir 4 twist or to be in the right destiny to fire it off.
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  2. #22
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    Default Acid and BB

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    Well considering my energy burst does a minimum off about 1500 upwards of 5000, only costs 20 spell points, can be fired fairly frequently and doesn't require a bunch of kiting.

    While my BB if they don't make their save averages about 500-600, costs more than double SP (for maximized) and the mobs need to be kited.

    I would have to say the energy burst is definitely the way to go.

    Main thing BB has going for it, is you don't need to have teir 4 twist or to be in the right destiny to fire it off.
    I was using the Draconic ED to pump BB and TD and would buff acid with nehacements, but they took that out of the enhacements, so I'm not sure how I will set Livmo up post L20 this time around.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by Livmo; 10-15-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #23
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
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    Thanks for doing some testing. What was your spell power and crit chance for each rune arm during the testing? Were they the same? Were you positioned so all five shots hit the dummy for each rune arm?

    Panzermeyer summed up the advantages and disadvanteges of blade barrier vs energy burst, so I've got nothing to add about that.

    Regarding slotting spellpower on Needle vs an elemental damage. Corruption of Nature has 114 acid on it already, so slotting 138 will only get you another 24. That's not huge and I'd personally rather have the extra 7 damage. If your using Archaic, slotting force gains you 58 spell power over the potency found on blue dragonscale. IIRC specific spell powers are only found on helms and rings outside of a weapon. I certainly wouldn't want to give up a dragon helm for force spell power and there's just too many good ring choices imo. So you're either slotting it or giving up another good item slot. It is worth it to slot if you're using Archaic, but I'd rather go with Corruption since it has the extra advantage of gear consolidation for very little cost. And for reasons already mentioned, I'd value energy burst over blade barrier. So imo, Corruption has better overall synergy than Archaic Device.
    Last edited by CThruTheEgo; 10-15-2013 at 01:14 PM.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
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  4. #24
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    I was using the Draconic ED to pump BB and TD and would buff acid with nehacements, but they took that out of the enhacements, so I'm not sure how I will set Livmo up post L20 this time around.

    Any suggestions?
    I've updated Dubbell O'Seven for the enhancement pass, so you check the link in my sig for my setup.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Thanks for doing some testing. What was your spell power and crit chance for each rune arm during the testing? Were they the same? Were you positioned so all five shots hit the dummy for each rune arm?
    Force Spellpower was 316 (haven't slotted 138 yet, so 114 it is), force crit 18% (5 base, 4 enhancement, 9 blue dragon docent).
    Acid Spellpower was 290 with an EH Corruption of Nature (114 Spellpower as well), crit chance 14% (same as above, minus enhancements).

    Please note that the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower and a non-helpless target, all 5 shots added. The actual values I measured are 2047 for the Archaic Device and 1566 for EH Corruption of Nature. The difference between the two is that with CoN, I only hit 3 projectiles out of 5, every single time.

    I also changed my position frequently to see if that would impact CoN's ability to hit the dummy, but it didn't. But from every position every projectile should have hit the dummy, there was no situation were single projectiles would have been blocked by the environment.

  6. #26
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
    Force Spellpower was 316 (haven't slotted 138 yet, so 114 it is), force crit 18% (5 base, 4 enhancement, 9 blue dragon docent).
    Acid Spellpower was 290 with an EH Corruption of Nature (114 Spellpower as well), crit chance 14% (same as above, minus enhancements).

    Please note that the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower and a non-helpless target, all 5 shots added. The actual values I measured are 2047 for the Archaic Device and 1566 for EH Corruption of Nature. The difference between the two is that with CoN, I only hit 3 projectiles out of 5, every single time.

    I also changed my position frequently to see if that would impact CoN's ability to hit the dummy, but it didn't. But from every position every projectile should have hit the dummy, there was no situation were single projectiles would have been blocked by the environment.
    Thanks for the info. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower." Can you please explain this?

    From your description, your spell power and crit chance were already favoring Archaic. Also, you didn't get Corruption to hit fully, again favoring Archaic. So it doesn't sound like a fair test.

    It's easy to get Corruption to land all five shots a majority of the time. For the training dummy, stand right in front of it. Not quite right next to it, because then you can get all five shots going past it, but about a foot away from it will land all five consistently. In live combat use the "jump cast" method. Just jump and shoot. The vertical angle seems to help the shots zero in on the target. I rarely have a problem with Corruption missing anymore, especially in combat. It happens occasionally, but not often. Based off of the numbers you provided, it sounds like Corruption is better dps with all five shots accounted for.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Thanks for the info. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower." Can you please explain this?

    I took the damage result of every particle per shot, added them, and then divided by my spellpower in the respective element and by 1.5 to compensate the helpless state of the dummy. So, the formula was: Sum(particles 1 to 5)/[(Spellpower/100)*1.5]
    That way, the given damage values of 432 and 364 are comparable.


    From your description, your spell power and crit chance were already favoring Archaic. Also, you didn't get Corruption to hit fully, again favoring Archaic. So it doesn't sound like a fair test.

    It was fair by using the above formula and by using both runearms from the same positions.

    It's easy to get Corruption to land all five shots a majority of the time. For the training dummy, stand right in front of it. Not quite right next to it, because then you can get all five shots going past it, but about a foot away from it will land all five consistently. In live combat use the "jump cast" method. Just jump and shoot. The vertical angle seems to help the shots zero in on the target. I rarely have a problem with Corruption missing anymore, especially in combat. It happens occasionally, but not often. Based off of the numbers you provided, it sounds like Corruption is better dps with all five shots accounted for.
    It's absolutely true that Corruption of Nature would provide more dps if all the projectiles would hit the dummy. And I verified that only against the dummy. I did not include enemy elemental resistances or the difference of will save vs. fortitude save.
    From my experience in actual combat I still prefer Archaic over Corruption, because of reliability, enemy resistances, the save type and the synergies with artificer spells and enhancements. But thats only my personal experience and may be biased.
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  8. #28
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx.janus View Post
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    I understand what you are trying to accomplish with that formula, but it doesn't work the way you think it does. You're essentially converting the data into a damage per spell power format. But we know that rune arms are affected by a percentage range of spellpower (50-80% per a release note, iirc) and it is not known by how much each individual rune arm is affected by what percentage of spell power. So applying any formula without taking this percentage into account doesn't provide any relevant information.

    For example (purely hypothetical for illustration only): If 80% of spell power applies to Corruption, while only 50% applies to Archaic, then you'd be dividing by very different numbers. You can't simply divide by the raw spell power since that is not what is being applied to each.

    Now if they both were using the same percentage of spell power, then it wouldn't matter and your formula would work. But we don't know what percentage each is using, so you cannot apply such a formula.

    That said, you can still do a valid test by just using the raw damage numbers, but you would have to make other factors equal without applying conversion formulas. This would be easy enough to do. Just reset all enhancements, unequip all gear, kill the dummy before each trial to ensure a constant helpless state for all trials, and stand where I mentioned in my post above to ensure that all 5 shots hit for each rune arm on each discharge. When using Archaic Device, wear an impulse 114 item to account for the inherent 114 corrosion on Corruption. Then just average those numbers and compare.

    Regarding elemental resistance and save types: Both of these are a non-factor imo. There are very few things which are resistant/immune to acid. Saves don't matter because in EE the rune arm save won't be high enough to bypass either fort or will, so they are both going to be saved against. And EH is easy enough that optimization doesn't really matter, you can do just about anything you want and still be successful in EH. And the only thing that enhancements offer force specced anymore is 4% crit chance.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I've updated Dubbell O'Seven for the enhancement pass, so you check the link in my sig for my setup.
    Nice set-up on your build.

    I TR'ed the day or 2 b4 the pass. It seemed last life I was getting more dam out of Corruption than any of the other arms even when I didn't pump acid.

    I'm on 34 point build and L18. I may just TR again at L20 and get 36 point build to add-in some of your options. Give or take I waffle allot between ranged and caster. I do keep my melees pure melee.

    There is allot of great food for thought in this thread and in the Double build. Bookmarked.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    It seemed last life I was getting more dam out of Corruption than any of the other arms even when I didn't pump acid.
    From what I've read/heard, this reflects most people's experience, which is why it is likely the case that Corruption uses a higher percentage of spell power than Archaic Device.
    White Feather Sniper: dps focused, 62DC paralyzing arrows human ranged ranger/The Divine Cuisinart: human tempest in divine crusader/Hassan's Assassin: 81DC halfling assassin/The Count of Monte Cristo: human swashbuckler/Dubbell O'Seven: WF artificer
    Abandoned builds: Totally Bass Ackwards/Santa's Little Slayer

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