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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Do you have sorcerors and rogues and artificers taking those? I don't think so.

    There's nothing wrong with having specific abilities that are clearly best-in-class for certain characters. But when so many people regardless of class are using the same thing, that's different.

    Cocoon is overpowered for its cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Do you have sorcerors and rogues and artificers taking those? I don't think so.


    and then there's the Tukaws and the Juggernaughts...

    what was that you were saying again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I don't think so.
    oh, right. sorry... i disagree with you. i also don't run with cocoon on any of my characters currently.. altho i pretty easily could. meh *shrug*

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  2. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Anything with a melee weapon, minue SOME (but not all) rogue builds. This includes tukaw (sorc), juggernaut (arty), hand and a half builds (arty) and str based rogues. Just about every arty should have improved crit, whether ranged or melee.
    Fine, I stand corrected (esp with respect to IC, which I glanced over). It doesn't change the substance of the argument. Cocoon is useful for nearly all classes. The things you listed are not comparable, and if they were, they'd also need to be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Arcane self healing is overpowered for its cost, which is one spell slot (2 slots for some). If we are going to address overpowered self healing, lets address the most overpowered first. Cocoon doesnt even hold a candle up to what has been widely accepted as the norm for years now with arcane self healing, which no one bats an eyelash at, even though it is far more overpowered than any self healing melee have currently, at far less sacrifice.
    Chai, I've agreed with you on that several times in the past, and that's specifically why I raised the broader issue of healing as a whole. A fundamental balancing point in D&D normally is that wizards and sorcerors are glass cannons; the warforged race puts that on its ear and makes game balance impossible. Its one of the things that should be addressed.

  3. #643
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Fine, I stand corrected. It doesn't change the substance of the argument. Cocoon is useful for nearly all classes. The things you listed are not comparable, and if they were, they'd also need to be addressed.
    The things I listed ARE comparible when making blanket statements that if something is a no brainer its probably too powerful, and I will continue to leverage this stuff that is widely accepted as the norm that follows the same logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Chai, I've agreed with you on that several times in the past, and that's specifically why I raised the broader issue of healing as a whole. A fundamental balancing point in D&D normally is that wizards and sorcerors are glass cannons. The warforged raceputs that on its ear and makes game balance impossible. Its one of the things that should be addressed.
    Its not just warforged anymore and hasnt been for years now. PMs have run of the mill self healing no one wants nerfed either. But the minute the fighter slaps a cocoon on themselves, its a sin.

    The reason I continue to bring it up is because it seems to me that any time melee have it even slightly easier in the self healing dpt theres people who want it taken away, but when far more powerful classes make far less sacrifice to get even better self healing, no one bats an eyelash at it. I use casters to point out that the ship sailed years ago on game balance in regards to powerful offense classes getting self healing with very little to no sacrifice. If we are going to advocate this atmosphere of divines not being babysitters and this atmosphere of BYOH, its self contradictory to not support decent self healing for all in the same atmosphere.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The things I listed ARE comparible and I will continue to leverage this stuff that is widely accepted as the norm that follows the same logic.
    You're entitled to your opinion. I listed only two types of characters where cocoon isn't useful, and there are solid arguments against those. That's not the case for your examples, whether you want it to be or not.

    Another difference is the cocoon introduces a radically different type of capability to many characters, where your examples do not. Having IC may increase my DPS as a melee but it doesn't really let me do anything I couldn't do before. That's not the case with things like cocoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The reason I continue to bring it up is because it seems to me that any time melee have it even slightly easier in the self healing dpt theres people who want it taken away, but when far more powerful classes make far less sacrifice to get even better self healing, no one bats an eyelash at it. I use casters to point out that the ship sailed years ago on game balance in regards to powerful offense classes getting self healing with very little to no sacrifice. If we are going to advocate this atmosphere of divines not being babysitters and this atmosphere of BYOH, its self contradictory to not support decent self healing for all in the same atmosphere.
    Preach to the choir if you like. Everyone needs a hobby.

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Do you have sorcerors and rogues and artificers taking those? I don't think so.

    There's nothing wrong with having specific abilities that are clearly best-in-class for certain characters. But when so many people regardless of class are using the same thing, that's different.

    Cocoon is overpowered for its cost.
    Hardly. Without a serious investment in SP/HA/Devo/Meta, Cocoon is one of the weakest heals in the game. It already requires a hefty sacrifice on 'most' pure melee builds. For other, more versatile, builds, it require some medium level of sacrifice, and for those that give up almost nothing to take it, it's not even worth taking.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Not like Coccon. I can be in a different part of the dungeon and heal someone with cocoon and no other spells would reach that person. I completed several of the sagas on my cleric and at times in quests I would zerge off on my own or with a couple of players while the rest of the group was off on their own and I have healed the other party group with cocoon. Lol.. We are talking like on the other side of the dungeon map. That can not be working as intended - no way.
    I call B.S. Unless you proactively hard-selected this party memeber BEFORE you split up, there's no way the UI allowed you to select him later on when he was on the other side of the map. If you DID manage that somehow, I've never seen such a thing and I'd call that a bug. If he was close enough to be hard-selected, then he was close enough to be healed without any 'OP' argument.

    Now, if you DID have him pre-selected and Cocoon still fired, then fine, I'll back that fix.
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  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Hardly. Without a serious investment in SP/HA/Devo/Meta, Cocoon is one of the weakest heals in the game. It already requires a hefty sacrifice on 'most' pure melee builds. For other, more versatile, builds, it require some medium level of sacrifice, and for those that give up almost nothing to take it, it's not even worth taking.



    I call B.S. Unless you proactively hard-selected this party memeber BEFORE you split up, there's no way the UI allowed you to select him later on when he was on the other side of the map. If you DID manage that somehow, I've never seen such a thing and I'd call that a bug. If he was close enough to be hard-selected, then he was close enough to be healed without any 'OP' argument.

    Now, if you DID have him pre-selected and Cocoon still fired, then fine, I'll back that fix.
    Try it and then come back here and tell me this. There is no range on cocoon and it goes through walls. Naturally a cleric has a serious investment in positive spell power. Cocoon is so bugged man its beyond silly.
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  7. #647
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Why do people feel the need to complain about the good broken, when there's so much bad broken in the game?

    Yes, Cocoon should have a range and Line-of-Sight check, BUT

    Baktor shouldn't lag out parties as it teleports around constantly in eDA.
    Artificer's dogs shouldn't jellyfish every time it walks by a ladder.
    Disciplinator should drop in epic VoN loot tables.
    Improved Feint should actually function without jumping through hoops to make sure it lands. (Press button. hold breath for 3 seconds until it procs)
    The double loot from Web of Chaos is now gone, but the screwwy CRs on mobs remain.
    Drow racial enhancements should persist.
    Epic Ward needs to go. It screws over bards and artis more than everyone else. Cr60+ mobs with 130,000 HP that are completely off the die don't need protection removing major tools to get them back on the die.
    Off-hand double strike should not be contingent on main hand double strike proccing.
    Sagas should still credit you for completion even if dead.

    And these are just my pet bugs off the top of my head from the past two years, I'm sure if I actually maintained and had a bug-tracking database, the list would be a lot longer.

    Every time I see a developer post "Please submit a bug report." I think "I have. Please read it."
    Every time I see one of these threads, I think "There's not changes that you want made to benefit you first? You want a change that detracts from others?"

  8. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Hardly. Without a serious investment in SP/HA/Devo/Meta, Cocoon is one of the weakest heals in the game. It already requires a hefty sacrifice on 'most' pure melee builds. For other, more versatile, builds, it require some medium level of sacrifice, and for those that give up almost nothing to take it, it's not even worth taking.
    Hefty sacrifice?

    Last life when my fighter/paladin/rogue hit 20, I just slotted a devotion item and went to town. Even with no such item you're still talking about at least 150 HP every 12 seconds at a minimal cost, immediate and uninterruptible. When I got high enough I slapped on an epic-level shamanic fetish -- pretty easy to get -- and was getting the 150 temporary HP and at least 200 HP of healing per cast. It was pretty much the only thing I even needed to use, and cost me almost nothing.

  9. #649
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Sad thing is cocoon makes things a little easier but it's not even as great as everyone makes it out to be. A heal scroll with scroll master and good amp is much more powerful and requires far less of a sacrifice to use. Cocoon is good for having easy casual play healing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    A heal scroll with scroll master and good amp is much more powerful and requires far less of a sacrifice to use.
    How well does that work for a fighter getting knocked around by a boss? And on many builds, getting 39 UMD requires much more sacrifice than cocoon, which pretty close to free.

  11. #651
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    How well does that work for a fighter getting knocked around by a boss? And on many builds, getting 39 UMD requires much more sacrifice than cocoon, which pretty close to free.
    39 umd is easy at epic levels, seriously all it requires is not dumping cha and taking maxing points in umd when you level.

    As far as how well it works, I'm not this good but....

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  12. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    How well does that work for a fighter getting knocked around by a boss? And on many builds, getting 39 UMD requires much more sacrifice than cocoon, which pretty close to free.
    Totally untrue, skill points for many classes are trivial, especially non specialists. Its easy for several non specialists classes who favor chr like sorc as well and only those sorc who tended to forsake that style of play saw int as a dumb stat prior to the changes to spell craft and spell power.

    Meanwhile we all only get 3 twist slots. Using one for something largely outclassed by a consumable item and some basic AP investments is well silly to many of the more optimal character builders on the forums.

    While there may be some bugginess with the ability when it comes to range and LoS, I cant ever condone any work on it until the drow racial tree has been fixxed and frankly upgraded.

  13. #653
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    I'm still waiting to hear what it is that "outclasses" cocoon for a melee. Heal scrolls? Nope. Silver flame pots? Nope. Store pots? If you want to spend hundreds of TP on that overpriced junk, I suppose.

    Yes, it costs a twist slot. And that's pretty much all it costs, for something that pretty much transforms many characters from being dependent on others for healing, to not being dependent.

    As for UMD, I didn't say you couldn't get to 39. I said it requires sacrifices. My fighter could UMD heal scrolls but I had to pretty much give up skill points in everything else to get it. And let's not forget epic levels include level 20, not just level 28 after you've gotten a bunch of free points.

  14. #654
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    How well does that work for a fighter getting knocked around by a boss? And on many builds, getting 39 UMD requires much more sacrifice than cocoon, which pretty close to free.
    So "free" is now full heal skill investment, grabbing positive/universal spell power enhancements, or slotting empower heal + slotting a devotion item? This is what it takes to make cocoon effective. Otherwise it does a small amount per tick until the one hit from a mob takes the temp HP off.

    Its far from free, or the "minimal investment" people continue to exageratedly say it is.

    39 UMD requires the same number of skill points, and no gear or feat investment. If we are counting heal amp gear, we are counting it for both.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #655
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm still waiting to hear what it is that "outclasses" cocoon for a melee. Heal scrolls? Nope. Silver flame pots? Nope. Store pots? If you want to spend hundreds of TP on that overpriced junk, I suppose.
    Im fine with the fact that its the best option for melee. If you have an agenda against melee being able to self heal, at least call a spade a spade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yes, it costs a twist slot. And that's pretty much all it costs, for something that pretty much transforms many characters from being dependent on others for healing, to not being dependent.
    I clearly defined this to be incorrect in my previous post. Making cocoon effective: full heal skill investment, grabbing positive/universal spell power enhancements, slotting empower heal + slotting a devotion item - the more sacrifice I make the more effective it becomes. If you slot cocoon with no heal skill, no devotion item, and no empowered heal, and no power enhancements, its impact doesnt justify the twist slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    As for UMD, I didn't say you couldn't get to 39. I said it requires sacrifices. My fighter could UMD heal scrolls but I had to pretty much give up skill points in everything else to get it. And let's not forget epic levels include level 20, not just level 28 after you've gotten a bunch of free points.
    Making cocoon effectiverequires as much if not more sacrifice to make effective than scroll healing. Its just more effective when more sacrifice is made. Sounds ok to me.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-03-2013 at 01:30 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #656
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    So what happens when cocoon is on cooldown for a melee? Drink a pot right? Hope you have team players in your group that sees you need a healing hand. Cocoon I see is more emergency button and unreliable in the sense of self sufficiency. I'll stick to my healing spring unless something better comes along.

  17. #657
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Why do people feel the need to complain about the good broken, when there's so much bad broken in the game?

    Yes, Cocoon should have a range and Line-of-Sight check, BUT

    Baktor shouldn't lag out parties as it teleports around constantly in eDA.
    Artificer's dogs shouldn't jellyfish every time it walks by a ladder.
    Disciplinator should drop in epic VoN loot tables.
    Improved Feint should actually function without jumping through hoops to make sure it lands. (Press button. hold breath for 3 seconds until it procs)
    The double loot from Web of Chaos is now gone, but the screwwy CRs on mobs remain.
    Drow racial enhancements should persist.
    Epic Ward needs to go. It screws over bards and artis more than everyone else. Cr60+ mobs with 130,000 HP that are completely off the die don't need protection removing major tools to get them back on the die.
    Off-hand double strike should not be contingent on main hand double strike proccing.
    Sagas should still credit you for completion even if dead.

    And these are just my pet bugs off the top of my head from the past two years, I'm sure if I actually maintained and had a bug-tracking database, the list would be a lot longer.

    Every time I see a developer post "Please submit a bug report." I think "I have. Please read it."
    Every time I see one of these threads, I think "There's not changes that you want made to benefit you first? You want a change that detracts from others?"
    Amen.. and Amen Again!

  18. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So "free" is now full heal skill investment, grabbing positive/universal spell power enhancements, or slotting empower heal + slotting a devotion item? This is what it takes to make cocoon effective. Otherwise it does a small amount per tick until the one hit from a mob takes the temp HP off.

    Its far from free, or the "minimal investment" people continue to exageratedly say it is.
    It's even further from requiring a "heavy investment", a claim that's just obviously nonsensical. Even with no items and no enhancements and no nothing, it's 250 points of healing for a minimal SP cost, instantaneous and uninterruptible. The attempts by some of you to play it down are quite amusing, and effectively counterargued by how many people take it regardless of class or build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im fine with the fact that its the best option for melee. If you have an agenda against melee being able to self heal, at least call a spade a spade.
    I already explained my view on the healing issue. Twice. My "agenda" is that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses, and that it's bad game design when nearly anyone can get essential class skills for a minimal cost.

    Since you're still mischaracterizing my view on the issue, I don't see much point in continuing this aspect of the discussion.

  19. #659
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Why is it that people are still complaining about healing options are for melee? People refuse to splash classes, invest in umd, take healing amp, use “cookie cutter” or fotm builds, but they will still come here and complain.

    The answer to their problem is in front of them but they refuse to accept them. Do you want Turbine to just give the heal spell and 4,000 mana to every toon?

    If people are so daft to only want to boost there “core abilities” and not invest in healing options it is their own dumb arse fault. Not the community and not Turibne.
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  20. #660
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    It's even further from requiring a "heavy investment", a claim that's just obviously nonsensical. Even with no items and no enhancements and no nothing, it's 250 points of healing for a minimal SP cost, instantaneous and uninterruptible. The attempts by some of you to play it down are quite amusing, and effectively counterargued by how many people take it regardless of class or build.
    Over a significant period of time. 250 points is one melee hit in EE content. Im not playing it down, Im making an accurate claim. I also clearly outlined in an itemized fashion how it is more sacrifice than getting 39 UMD, with it being more effective. More sacrifice = more effective. Sounds like its WAI to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I already explained my view on the healing issue. Twice. My "agenda" is that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses, and that it's bad game design when nearly anyone can get essential class skills for a minimal cost.
    Its not a minimal cost. Keep making that claim, anmd Ill keep refuting it with factual information. YOu asked whats more effective ON MELEE, and acted like it was out of balance ON MELEE, because it is the most effective ON MELEE. I outlined how MELEE have to make more sacrifice to make cocoon effective than they do to make heal scrolls effective. More sacrifice = more effective. Sounds WAI to me. Obvious agenda is obvious. If we werent so bent out of shape about melee having a good option to heal, this discussion wouldnt exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Since you're still mischaracterizing my view on the issue, I don't see much point in continuing this aspect of the discussion.
    Im not mischaracterizing your view. Im literally refuting it. by comparing what it takes to make cocoon effective -vs- what it takes to make heal scrolls effective.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-03-2013 at 01:45 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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