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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    I don't recall this being about endgame being the priority over everything else. As it stands, they are putting the cart before the horse. Releasing a super grind fest, for some unknown to date bonuses, without the quest xp being able to support it without buying lots of xp pots and/or grinding quests until your eyes bleed.

    What I understand this to be, was a discussion to address the population of your endgame players and what they would like and to try and cater to them some as they have been largely neglected lately, and thrown things they do not want. Pages of posts from folks that play mostly end game/capped characters should be a sign.

    Sorry I need to spell this out for you. But this new system is not for the casuals. No casual is going to grind out 6.6 mil xp for a PL ED on a repeat basis. This is a system catered toward grinders and end game players and by and large those that play at that level are not happy with it. Casuals pretending they want this, when they have no intention of ever doing it have no voice in this debate as far as I am concerned.

    It would be like me ranting about some change in Perma Death play, when I've no intention of ever doing it.
    I guess the part where we get our wires crossed is when people call the 6.6 million experience a grind. Earning 6.6 million experience to get from 20-28 is called playing. If a casual gets to level 28, why would he want to stop being able to get experience? What advantage does he have in sitting at level 28 instead of Epic TRing and just playing the same content anyway? If your goal in DDO is to sit around at the level cap running content then sure, Epic TRing does indeed create a 6.6 million experience grind and sets you back 8 levels. If however you goal is just to play epic content then Epic TRing does nothing more than give you some sort of past life bonus and lets the experience reward you get from questing mean something again.

    I suppose we have the same problem with regular TRing as well. Some view it as a 4.2 million experience grind that they have to do after cruelly being sent back to level one. Others view it as just an opportunity to play all the quests again at an appropriate level. Since there is nothing to do but sit at a level cap and play a small subset of the quests anyway, TRing and playing from the beginning again is just the logical choice. Epic TRing is just as logical if you prefer the epic content over the heroic content. Grinding happens when you are in a rush. Casuals are not in a rush so it is called playing instead. It's the same thing really, but playing is more enjoyable.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong.

    Repeating content = grindy

    You cannot get to 28 without repeating a ton of stuff.
    I guess we need to define what is grinding and what isn't. If you do every quest once and then heroic TR did you grind? If once and done is not grinding then you can basically Epic TR the same way. Instead of doing every quest once and being done, you can do every epic quest once (which leaves you around level 26) and then go back and do every quest once more (which is probably more than you need to get to 28). So instead of doing every quest once and being ready to TR like in heroic, you have to do it twice. You do every quest once. Go back and do every quest once more. And then Epic TR. If doing each quest once before TRing (and then doing every quest again so you can TR again) is not considered grinding, then doing every quest once and repeating the process before Epic TRing wouldn't really be grinding either. It just means you have to do two sets of once-and-done before getting a past life feat instead of a single set, but since there are fewer quests and the experience rewards are much larger when at epic levels it still takes less time than heroic leveling (for a typical player that has not mastered zerging heroic content).

    I should point out I am not saying twice-and-done because that would imply that you are doing the same quest twice in a row each time which would feel much more grindy than waiting to go back to the first quest until after you had run every other quest once as well.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Just as there are many builds in this game there are many challenges to how and what you build. But first and foremost it has to be a challenge you enjoy doing. I've played Bards of different shades. My favorite was a Virtuoso (althoug that's just what he became since he existed long before PrE's). He was a challenge. And I highly doubt Qhualor hasn't played any "suboptimal" builds and made them work quite well. And I bet Qhualor enjoyed doing so.

    But that's just one form of challenge. And someone has to think it's fun to play it in the first place. I've also enjoyed played a "suboptimal and supportive " character. In my case it's a Paladin. But yeah, I "cheated" and multi-classed him and set him up to fight along any of the big guns ( yeah I realize there are bigger guns out there but put him in FoTW or LD and he'll hold his own- all the while helping heal people who might need it quite well).

    There are always people who will push the envelope and build characters that will synergize well with anything the Devs let them. That's their form of challenge. And yeah, they might complain that things are too easy. But other than maybe goading the Devs to swing the nerfbat at us, they are really quite harmless. And they do a good job of highlighting the fact that the Devs miss things and should work to balance things out. The people who build character's that remove all challenge from the game aren't out to ruin the game. They just enjoy figuring out the puzzle of how to best "beat" the game.

    Just as I enjoy the puzzle of making a Paladin that can save people's butts and solo quests. Just as you enjoy the puzzle of making a fine tuned supportive Spellsinger Bard.

    The game may entice people to play "overpowered" combinations, but the fact that there are those combinations just makes the challenge of creating combinations that can stand along those builds (in whatever capacity that makes it a valuable addition) all the more interesting. And even if people nowadays were to only play highest optimal builds (which isn;t true, I still see all kinds of builds out there) it wouldn't do any worse than raise the bar for those of us who like challenging ourselves with builds.

    Sure, there may come a time when Turbine completely neglects certain classes in favor of others (which happens all the time as we follow that pendulum) and screw it up completely. But, for the most part, there is still room for a comparatively suboptimal build that's optimized in ways that add to the group's overall performance.
    As long as the optimal build people remain harmless I have no problem with them. I don't mind people joining my groups that effortlessly stomp the content (nor do I mind those that struggle) and I know that highly skilled players will always be able to play the sub-optimal builds and classes. But if the people that only play the most powerful builds and then cry for more challenge get their way, sub-optimal builds will only be for the greatest of players. When a new player comes along and is playing a level 4 bard you will pretty much have to tell them to delete and reroll it because the game has been designed around the assumption that you did your homework and are playing a class combination that is designed to make the game easy whether you find that fun or not. Hopefully they will never get their way and all their calls for more challenge will fall on deaf ears in which case they are harmless as you say. But, if they are listened to, the ability of new players to play the classes they want (rather than the overpowered combinations they need to in order to survive) will suffer for it.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i know, right. wouldn't want some variety or something else to do besides ED grind, TR and loot grind at end game. 7 raids +1 more if you count Reavers made the servers hop at one time. are the servers hopping with 2 raids now?
    I am reading a lot about the glory days of the level 20 cap and having a lot of raids result in a lot of players, but I cannot help but feel that this same time period was when the game was still high in population because it had recently gone free-to-play. F2P brought in a lot of people that would not have played the game otherwise. It was not necessarily having 7+ end game raids that resulted in the glory days of DDO population-wise. How many raids did DDO have when it was dying before F2P was introduced?
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  5. #485
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    Grinding isn't an activity. It's a state of mind. And it's really easy to recognize.

    If you're about to step into a quest and are thinking "I'm looking forward to this" and then enjoy doing it -- you're having fun.

    If you're about to step into a quest and think to yourself "sigh, 3 down, 2 more to go, let's get this done ASAP" -- you're grinding.

    I grind sometimes, and I always know when I'm doing it. It's when I feel like I'm forcing myself to persist for a period of time to get past something. But I never do it for very long, because if I found myself doing it constantly, I'd find a different game to play.

  6. #486
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I am reading a lot about the glory days of the level 20 cap and having a lot of raids result in a lot of players, but I cannot help but feel that this same time period was when the game was still high in population because it had recently gone free-to-play. F2P brought in a lot of people that would not have played the game otherwise. It was not necessarily having 7+ end game raids that resulted in the glory days of DDO population-wise. How many raids did DDO have when it was dying before F2P was introduced?
    it wasn't all that long ago. MOTU was when? last year spring/summer? players were pretty focused with the new expansion that had better loot, but a really bugged out raid. the 7 +1 raids were still being run, but some a bit less because of better loot in MOTU namely Reavers, VOD, LOB and Hound. LOB would have continued to be run more often, imo, if it weren't for the wonky drop rates and the numerous complaints by players about the run to the raid that never was addressed. some of us aren't really asking for those same raids to be viable with cap at 28 and eventually 30, although it would be nice if they were, but its obvious that end game activity now is nothing compared to last year. current end game is pretty much 2 raids, ED grind, level to 28 which includes running older epics and farming for loot in quests. not much of an incentive to stay at epic levels, especially since loot is easy to get overall.

    as far as the game dying before 2009, there are some older vets that disagree, while ive read some that disagree with them. F2P did bring in a lot of new players, including me, and i haven't seen the population that high since.

  7. #487
    Community Member HelvanderSeries6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    And since the next raid has something to do with a undead dwarf castle I hope it's not another open story arch.


    Oh ****...I hope it has nothing to do with Gauntlgrym or Undermountain. Enough with the Fell already and if it has anything to do with Halaster Blackcloak(the other Gandalf ripp-off) Well, we burned those books long ago....jus say'n.
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    Gnomes taste like mushrooms...jus say'n
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  8. #488
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I guess the part where we get our wires crossed is when people call the 6.6 million experience a grind. Earning 6.6 million experience to get from 20-28 is called playing. If a casual gets to level 28, why would he want to stop being able to get experience? What advantage does he have in sitting at level 28 instead of Epic TRing and just playing the same content anyway? If your goal in DDO is to sit around at the level cap running content then sure, Epic TRing does indeed create a 6.6 million experience grind and sets you back 8 levels. If however you goal is just to play epic content then Epic TRing does nothing more than give you some sort of past life bonus and lets the experience reward you get from questing mean something again.

    I suppose we have the same problem with regular TRing as well. Some view it as a 4.2 million experience grind that they have to do after cruelly being sent back to level one. Others view it as just an opportunity to play all the quests again at an appropriate level. Since there is nothing to do but sit at a level cap and play a small subset of the quests anyway, TRing and playing from the beginning again is just the logical choice. Epic TRing is just as logical if you prefer the epic content over the heroic content. Grinding happens when you are in a rush. Casuals are not in a rush so it is called playing instead. It's the same thing really, but playing is more enjoyable.
    Charcaters are planned with past life feats nowadays, so that grind is far beyond just *playing* the game. Somebody wants to have the highest DC possible in order to succeed in the hardest content.

    But pushing defenses of targets to the point of making the highest DC or whole feature useless puts *pointless* in front of that grind. And that is, for sure, one reason, why so many people complain about grind. Some of the game community make it even worse by demanding that specific DC or - in general - number, because we all know that endgame players, epsecially the hardcore crowd is as selective as a whiny kid, who refuses to eat its spinach. The backlash is that the content kind of demands that selectivity, which leads to that grind again. So, whatever you call it, it is pointless and takes away fun from playing DDO. That is, because the impression of a *must* is created in order to achieve progress or a quest completion in endgame content. Epic elite, specifically.
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  9. #489
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Charcaters are planned with past life feats nowadays, so that grind is far beyond just *playing* the game. Somebody wants to have the highest DC possible in order to succeed in the hardest content.

    But pushing defenses of targets to the point of making the highest DC or whole feature useless puts *pointless* in front of that grind. And that is, for sure, one reason, why so many people complain about grind. Some of the game community make it even worse by demanding that specific DC or - in general - number, because we all know that endgame players, epsecially the hardcore crowd is as selective as a whiny kid, who refuses to eat its spinach. The backlash is that the content kind of demands that selectivity, which leads to that grind again. So, whatever you call it, it is pointless and takes away fun from playing DDO. That is, because the impression of a *must* is created in order to achieve progress or a quest completion in endgame content. Epic elite, specifically.
    The only time you need those dc's is if you don't want to go shiradi. If you don't want to do a past life, and you don't want to use shiradi, there's not a whole lot anyone can do for you.

  10. #490
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    That is exactly one effect, that I am referring to. You are forced towards Shiradi, after you may have had to experience a maximimum past life grind just to see that it has been useless. But the potential money was spent to Turbine, so why should they care...
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  11. #491
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    This exactly. Some grind is needed, and some grind is good. However there is some grind that is bad, running ed's in off destinies to get fate points was a very bad grind for example, while the seal, shard, scroll grind was a good grind imo (some seals and shards could have used adjustments but overall). Turbine has gone to a total xp grind for endgame lately with a minimal gear grind and honestly that gets very old very very fast in my book because it doesn't have the entertainment value of raiding or running good content.
    I agree that the ED grind was bad, but I don't see what's so terrible about the XP "grind". It's NOT a small number of quests you have to repeat endlessly (like most loot grinds, where you repeat ONE quest or raid over and over).

    The XP ransack reset was a great move. It allows us to play many different epic level quests. How many are there? 50 different quests? If you play 5 different quests a day, that's 10 days before you have to repeat anything. Get multiple characters (which most of you have) and even it's less grindy because a wizard plays differently from a monk, etc.

    I can understand that some people prefer raiding and loot grinding, but you guys CANNOT say that running 50 different quests for XP is MORE grindy or even AS grindy as running ONE quest 50 times for named loot.

    You may prefer the loot grind, fine, but the TR "grind" is 50x less "grindy" stop talking about the "grind" of TRing. Playing quests is just playing the game. If playing quests is "grind", then you need to quit this game today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  12. #492
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I guess the part where we get our wires crossed is when people call the 6.6 million experience a grind. Earning 6.6 million experience to get from 20-28 is called playing. If a casual gets to level 28, why would he want to stop being able to get experience? What advantage does he have in sitting at level 28 instead of Epic TRing and just playing the same content anyway? If your goal in DDO is to sit around at the level cap running content then sure, Epic TRing does indeed create a 6.6 million experience grind and sets you back 8 levels. If however you goal is just to play epic content then Epic TRing does nothing more than give you some sort of past life bonus and lets the experience reward you get from questing mean something again.

    I suppose we have the same problem with regular TRing as well. Some view it as a 4.2 million experience grind that they have to do after cruelly being sent back to level one. Others view it as just an opportunity to play all the quests again at an appropriate level. Since there is nothing to do but sit at a level cap and play a small subset of the quests anyway, TRing and playing from the beginning again is just the logical choice. Epic TRing is just as logical if you prefer the epic content over the heroic content. Grinding happens when you are in a rush. Casuals are not in a rush so it is called playing instead. It's the same thing really, but playing is more enjoyable.
    This. So many powergamers see going through 1-20 again as some kind of punishment for that +1 to damage or +1 to spell pen. Most of us see it as a way to keep the game fun and fresh.

    If playing quests is grind, then you're really doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  13. #493
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Grinding isn't an activity. It's a state of mind. And it's really easy to recognize.

    If you're about to step into a quest and are thinking "I'm looking forward to this" and then enjoy doing it -- you're having fun.

    If you're about to step into a quest and think to yourself "sigh, 3 down, 2 more to go, let's get this done ASAP" -- you're grinding.

    I grind sometimes, and I always know when I'm doing it. It's when I feel like I'm forcing myself to persist for a period of time to get past something. But I never do it for very long, because if I found myself doing it constantly, I'd find a different game to play.
    This. Some people in this thread need to print this out and hang it on their monitors.

    I've grinded before, and it exhausts me. The way I normally play is not grind.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 09-22-2013 at 09:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I agree that the ED grind was bad, but I don't see what's so terrible about the XP "grind". It's NOT a small number of quests you have to repeat endlessly (like most loot grinds, where you repeat ONE quest or raid over and over).
    Overall (as you know) I agree with you, though there are areas of the game where the grind is unavoidable -- the alternative is not playing, I suppose. The high teens are awful and have been for a long time -- and they've gotten much, MUCH worse since epic levels were added because of the high-teen raids no longer being run at level. I'm level 12 right now with 13 banked and trying to get closer to 14 before I take 13 and I'm already out of quests and will have to repeat stuff. Not a lot, but definitely some.

    The very high epic levels are now also underpopulated.

    I'm hoping U20 will address this, though. There's no reason to believe they are going to add in a new system like this and not adjust XP requirements, especially when they've already said they plan to do exactly that.

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    Figured I would add my ramble. This might work for all sides.

    1) 2 additional quests per level from level 5-20. (This is just because it should happen...)

    2) Some sort of ETR, but make exp faster after ETR. Give your character a chance to do something new - but not get overly bored. Lower the exp needed to go from 20-28 by about 5%/ETR. Once level 28 (max level) a character would need about 2 weeks worth of exp/raiding/questing to be able to ETR again. Keep ETR 20-28 exp low enough that end game raiders could do 20-28 in a weekend and be ready to raid again during the week(build an environment for a true end game).

    3) This is going to be long, but what I would like to see as a start to a real end game expansion for DDO. Three tiers, all for end game characters.
    Tier 1 - available to all at lvl 24~+. Wilderness area with 1 unique items to collect off each rare, 10~ rares. Once all ten items are collected you get flagged for a raid instance. 12 man raid, great pick up group could do elite. This raid would then flag you for tier 2, tier 2 would have a difficulty setting that would unlock based on the max level you completed the tier 1 raid. If you did the tier 1 raid on norm, you would be flagged for tier 2 norm. The 10 key items + a couple raid drops to create base level of one content item(kind of like green steel - will cover in #4).
    Tier 2 (norm - elite) - available after tier 1 flagging - resets with ETR/TR. 3 sets of 2 quests, each quest is 20~ minutes long. Each set of quests has a raid tied to it, and each quest/raid can only be done at a max difficulty as tier 1 was finished. Each raid contains the ingredients to upgrade your equipment as well as a key piece for the next tier (each key piece is marked norm - elite). People who are unable to handle or rather do solo can do the quests multiple times (10x hard on both quests for a set would get you the hard key piece). Once you have all three key pieces of a single difficulty level you can then unlock tier 3. Elite lvl here would be for multi ETR/TR Characters and even then it should be very difficult. The best a first life person could hope for is Hard and even then that would not be easy.
    Tier 3 (norm - elite) - available after tier 2 flagging - resets with ETR/TR. Two quests and a raid. Raid once again upgrades equipment based off difficulty. Finishing raid on elite would unlock a future pack(cover that in a sec).

    4) End game raid equipment. Each item has 2 stat boosts and 1 effect. Each item would have 12 tiers total. For ease let us say boots. You could do tier 1 key + get raid normal drops(will explain drops later) and craft a set of boots. This set of boots at tier 1 could have say +8 dex, +6 speed, and 10% blur. Tier 2 would be built using normal raid drops from tier 2 raids (also obtainable via the adjoining quests very very rarely), this could add a bit to the stats. Tier 3 would be built from the third normal raid drops. Tier 4 of the boots would then go back to the tier 1 raid hard drops. All raids could drop their level and lower, so doing tier 1 raid on elite would also give you hard/normal craft supplies for tier 1. This would allow even casual players to slowly build their character and get something real out of it.

    5) Each class should be able to farm something to replace a few of the raid items or have a few raid drops that are better then built item. A hard farm, but the drop items might well outclass even end game raid crafted items. Maybe even make a few of them 20th completion items?

    6) End game difficulty.
    A 1st life any build. Handle tier 1 raid on normal. Also Tier 2 on normal.
    A 1st life no TR Premium or 3rd life any build. Chance to handle tier 1 raid on hard. This character could also do Tier 2 on normal.
    A 3rd life premium build or 9th~ life any build. Handle tier 2 raid on hard, tier 3 raid on normal.
    A 6th life premium build or comp any build. Handle Tier 1 on Elite, and tier 3 on hard.
    A comp TR premium build or comp any build + a few ETR. Tier 2 on elite.
    Comp TR prem build or comp TR + comp ETR. All lvls on Elite.

    7) I think another key point is to keep the game open for people that like to solo through. 10x-20x doing the quests associated with a raid would yield the same reward as the quest. That way a determined solo player could go as far as any guild raid player, including a full flagging. Which seems to be a key point to ddo. Another mechanic to add. Doing a quest on a certain tier 20 times could yield the result from the quest at one tier higher(but not the flag).

    8) 4 months after releasing this they should add 5 wilderness zones as a pack for end game people. You have to finish tier 3 on elite to be flagged for these new zones(no VIP buy in). Basically a play zone for the elite characters(5% of the population, tops - so this isn't really going to mess with groups). Anyone remember Plane of Mischief on EQ before they messed it all up? Collect a bunch of super rare random drop playing cards, turn them in for a flower that casts a protection spell(infinite). Something like that would be nice. A play zone where end game characters can farm for clickies and maybe augments with high end stats. While they wait for the next raid expansion. This end zone would also stay keyed through ETR. So you can farm loot while gaining exp and finishing out those last lives before the next expansion(by the time you get to this zone, you should have most TR/ETR finished). When the next expansion comes out, flagging for this zone should become trivial in terms of difficulty compared to max lvl player. Allowing casual players to catch up with 4-6 months worth of playing, other players could catch up in as little as 2 months(or less if they grind it). The end game chars will however move onto the next expansion, but they might still farm this zone.

    9) Experienced guilds would become a must for end game Elite raiding, but still a dedicated soloist could still go end game via questing.


    So yeah, that is a lot of stuff(wonder if anyone will read it or if it makes sense).

  16. #496
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    I believe the best way to avoid grind (since it was mentioned) is to have short term goals. That way you dont feel that the progress is slow.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  17. #497
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    That is exactly one effect, that I am referring to. You are forced towards Shiradi, after you may have had to experience a maximimum past life grind just to see that it has been useless. But the potential money was spent to Turbine, so why should they care...
    Umm dc casting is fixed man, I can land stuff on a first life druid in ee stormhorns, so the choice is really do i work on dc's, spell pen, etc and be an ultimate dc caster or do I run in shiradi and play the content now.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    So...now what do I do with that character if there's no challenging raid with goodies to keep me going after?
    You TR him. That character is done. Your choices are to shelve him, delete him, or TR him. If there are any of the 39 past lives you have not gotten yet I would TR him. If you have all 39 I would shelve him. Video games (even MMO's) don't last forever and the faster we level the sooner they end. That is why the changes to leveling speed in MMO's over the last 10 years have been so sad. People want to level quickly to get to an end game only to realize (as you just have) that there is no point in being there because there is nothing worthwhile to do. End games are always pointless. Nothing you do ever lasts. If the game gives you the ability to change the world (like in a PvP end game) then the other team will just change it back. If an end game gives you the ability to gather gear, then future updates will just make that gear obsolete and cause you to throw it away. End games are pointless. Slow leveling for the win. In video games the journeys are always greater than the destinations.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    You TR him. That character is done. Your choices are to shelve him, delete him, or TR him. If there are any of the 39 past lives you have not gotten yet I would TR him. If you have all 39 I would shelve him. Video games (even MMO's) don't last forever and the faster we level the sooner they end. That is why the changes to leveling speed in MMO's over the last 10 years have been so sad. People want to level quickly to get to an end game only to realize (as you just have) that there is no point in being there because there is nothing worthwhile to do. End games are always pointless. Nothing you do ever lasts. If the game gives you the ability to change the world (like in a PvP end game) then the other team will just change it back. If an end game gives you the ability to gather gear, then future updates will just make that gear obsolete and cause you to throw it away. End games are pointless. Slow leveling for the win. In video games the journeys are always greater than the destinations.
    You realize that mmo's usually have a constantly expanding endgame with raids for those characters to play rather than shelve and that is partially why many play mmo's rather than console games?

    ddo had a game like that prior to motu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I've tried that challenge argument with these anti endgame people and got told I should have done it on a perma-death character, it's pathetic on their part.
    I think some of the players seem to have trouble realizing that the point of RPG's is to eventually become amazingly powerful. If we were happy always having a constant level of challenge there would be no need to go through the effort of leveling. Plenty of games give you a character that is already done and needs no experience to progress. You just pick up items and play the game. The extra effort that RPG's with experience require is to make your character amazing so you don't have to be challenged if you don't want to. If you have done everything in your power to be as amazingly awesome as possible and the game is still challenging then the game sucks (because it capped your power at too low a level). You work so hard to build such an amazing character so you can be awesome. If you are still being challenged after doing everything possible to make yourself amazing then what was the point? You could have just stayed at level 1 and been challenged. All that effort is supposed to be rewarded by finally making you powerful enough that nothing can stop you.

    It's like a single player Final Fantasy game. You can beat the end boss at level 40 or 50, but you can level up to 100. Why? So you can be amazing. So you can blow the boss away. The last 50 levels are not needed to beat the game they are there so you can build an amazing team of characters. Epic Elite loot does not exist because it is needed to play the game, it exists so you can become so powerful that any challenge is easy for you. Naturally if you wish to be challenged you would avoid the end game item grind since its only point is to make the game easier and that is contradictory to your goal of being challenged.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

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