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  1. #461
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    He may or may not have the experience he claims, but you have to remember that we don't all play the same game. Every MMO has many different challenge settings. For a lot of players this is how MMO's are played:

    Step 1: Create the most powerful character possible using every bit of meta-gaming you can. It does not matter how ridiculous it sounds to make a fighter/rogue/sorcerer instead of a bard (since that is basically what a bard is) as long as it makes the game easier.

    Step 2: Equip yourself with the most powerful gear and abilities you can find in every slot. Doesn't matter if something is so powerful that it takes the fun out of the game (e.g. level 4 twists in heroic that insta-kill everything around you) as long as it makes the game easier.

    Step 3: Only group with people like yourself that took the same steps. This usually means joining a guild of people like yourself and avoiding pick-up-groups whenever possible

    When you play any MMO this way it will always be easy. MMO's are made to be played by normal characters with normal gear in normal groups. If you only group with highly skilled friends and guild members then you skip a lot of the challenge that the game was designed to have. The game is designed to be played by normal people in normal groups. That means PUGs. If you are not playing in PUGs then you are probably playing the game in easy mode. That is fine for people that don't like a challenge, but a lot of the people that complain about challenge refuse to PUG. Their attitude is the cause of their problem. PUGs are where the challenge is and always will be. If you don't PUG (or more accurately don't play with less than perfect players) then the game has always been easy even back in alpha testing when we had only 4 enhancements at a time, 50% of all breakables were trapped, and every spider had such a terrible poison that you regularly found yourself with 0 strength and unable to move. Then you had to recall from the dungeon because ability damage did not go away on its own (and actually did not go away in town either so you had to shout for a lesser restore or simply kill yourself). That was definitely more challenging than it is now, but if you simply played with people that always had evasion and the ability to fix stat damage then the game would "always have been easy" in your eyes.
    I have never played that way and I still say the game isn't anywhere near as challenging as it used to be. ive been playing for 4 years and have watched how easy content has gotten over time. I cant be told otherwise. I don't purposely build characters that are considered OP, FOTM or take levels of monk/rogue for evasion. i play all melee characters and only 1 has evasion, a ranger. before its said, i have played a cleric and a FVS before and didn't like it. i prefer to play front line melees because its gives a bigger adrenaline rush than standing in the back pushing buttons. I think of a build I think would be fun and make it work. experience helps out a lot more than those kinds of builds, but it doesn't hurt either. quests i used to never touch without a group, i can now solo and ROFL stomp them. i can solo at least 3/4 of the heroic quests on elite with nothing more than ship buffs and sometimes a hire. i have soloed all epic quests on hard, except for the new adventure pack, or as some call it "expansion".

    it was not uncommon for groups to fail quests on norm. soloing elite was considered more of an accomplishment. now its expected that anyone should be able to and completion is expected in every quest or people cry that they wasted their time and blame others for the fail. there was more appreciation for completing quests, especially if you were able to do it on elite.

    it is poor game design when it is encouraged to make characters powerful and offer rewards and better gear than what you have, but make quests auto complete and make it overall easy to get more powerful gear. the challenge is more for the new players. your typical new player isn't going to research for the best build to level with. they will typically start up a build they think is fun and go with it. its the attitude of the players in the game and the changes made to the game that are reflected back to these players that they are "doing it wrong" and re-roll. the rest of us either want auto completion or crave challenge. DDO doesn't scale to the players like it should. we are given this powerful loot and have a lot of different ways to build characters, but elite can be auto completed by a first life character with no good gear. elite is supposed to be the toughest difficulty. whats so tough about it?

  2. #462
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    And it always was because the idiot that came up with it was not put in his proper place when he tried, and failed, to be clever. We already have the term nerfed. We don't need crucibled.
    Crucibled is nerfed, in DDO context. Its not literally the same thing though. It has more to do with something being trivialized due to entitlement based player complaints.

  3. #463
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    They did, however, recently buff the CRs on many of the mobs and the bosses in Crucible.

  4. #464
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    I can choose to grind it in a week and you can choose to grind it over a course of a few weeks, but repeating the same thing over and over again is by definition grinding..
    Nope, you're wrong... It's not boring when you do it slow. Ergo, not grinding. I still look forward to every new area on my TRs because it's been 3 months since I last played it.

    Just like I can repeat Mafia 2 a year after playing it and it's still fun. If I repeated it a week after finishing it, it would be grinding. Fast or slow definitely makes a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It removes a quest that really made people pug, removing reasons to pug and making things easier for soloists is a bad way to go in an mmo imo. Like I said, I like not having to run crucible on some toons but I'm not sure it was a good game health decision. Even after all this time since it was released I still can't decide.
    I am a huge proponent of PUGs, but the problem with the Crucible was not that it encouraged PUGs but rather that it required a particular type of player to join your group. I have been playing MMO's for a while and I have played countless MMO's where you sit around forming a group waiting for that required class to join (usually a tank because I tend to play healers). That trend has been going away in MMO's including DDO which is why we have cleric hirelings and healing potions that can be purchased by the hundreds. I have had plenty of Crucible PUGs that started with 5 people doing slayer for an hour while we waited for a swimmer. I love the quest, but I don't do cookie-cutter builds and sometimes my character just can't survive the swim. Given how unforgiving the swim is (e.g. instant death the first time you run into a spike since it hits you more than once and leaving your soul stone where no one can possibly raise you) it is simply not a good idea to even enter the quest without someone that you know can pull off the swim. There are things they could do to the quest to make it more playable for any group of 6 random players, but that would cause a lot of uproar too. Cleric and rogue hirelings are apparently fine, but if I were to suggesting adding improved evasion potions that are only effective when underwater I am sure I would have a flame war on my hands. Even something as simple as causing dead people to have their stones appear where the other party members can reach them would make it so that people could try the swim. Putting raise shrines underwater would also work so you can raise yourself when you die and keep on trying.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  6. #466
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I am a huge proponent of PUGs, but the problem with the Crucible was not that it encouraged PUGs but rather that it required a particular type of player to join your group. I have been playing MMO's for a while and I have played countless MMO's where you sit around forming a group waiting for that required class to join (usually a tank because I tend to play healers). That trend has been going away in MMO's including DDO which is why we have cleric hirelings and healing potions that can be purchased by the hundreds. I have had plenty of Crucible PUGs that started with 5 people doing slayer for an hour while we waited for a swimmer. I love the quest, but I don't do cookie-cutter builds and sometimes my character just can't survive the swim. Given how unforgiving the swim is (e.g. instant death the first time you run into a spike since it hits you more than once and leaving your soul stone where no one can possibly raise you) it is simply not a good idea to even enter the quest without someone that you know can pull off the swim. There are things they could do to the quest to make it more playable for any group of 6 random players, but that would cause a lot of uproar too. Cleric and rogue hirelings are apparently fine, but if I were to suggesting adding improved evasion potions that are only effective when underwater I am sure I would have a flame war on my hands. Even something as simple as causing dead people to have their stones appear where the other party members can reach them would make it so that people could try the swim. Putting raise shrines underwater would also work so you can raise yourself when you die and keep on trying.
    one problem with the swim is that with BB as part of the norm for running quests, most players aren't willing to give up their streak. i can understand that because it is really a nice bonus, but there in lies one of the problems with the game.

    the other problem with the swim, is that players are too afraid to try something they never had to try before or know that the spikes underwater can be unforgiving because they have seen other players die from it. instead of running it on norm where it is much more forgiving or challenging their build and their own skills, they would rather have someone else with experience do it or just skip it. my first time doing the swim i was a little nervous but i knew from some tips that other experienced swimmers had said, i was able to utilize that knowledge and be able to do it. i would still need more practice, but that swim really isn't that bad. to do it on elite without evasion i wouldn't recommend though unless the swimmer is that experienced at it. unless you did some underwater Olympic dancing or something, spikes on norm only tickle.

  7. #467
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I am a huge proponent of PUGs, but the problem with the Crucible was not that it encouraged PUGs but rather that it required a particular type of player to join your group. I have been playing MMO's for a while and I have played countless MMO's where you sit around forming a group waiting for that required class to join (usually a tank because I tend to play healers). That trend has been going away in MMO's including DDO which is why we have cleric hirelings and healing potions that can be purchased by the hundreds. I have had plenty of Crucible PUGs that started with 5 people doing slayer for an hour while we waited for a swimmer. I love the quest, but I don't do cookie-cutter builds and sometimes my character just can't survive the swim. Given how unforgiving the swim is (e.g. instant death the first time you run into a spike since it hits you more than once and leaving your soul stone where no one can possibly raise you) it is simply not a good idea to even enter the quest without someone that you know can pull off the swim. There are things they could do to the quest to make it more playable for any group of 6 random players, but that would cause a lot of uproar too. Cleric and rogue hirelings are apparently fine, but if I were to suggesting adding improved evasion potions that are only effective when underwater I am sure I would have a flame war on my hands. Even something as simple as causing dead people to have their stones appear where the other party members can reach them would make it so that people could try the swim. Putting raise shrines underwater would also work so you can raise yourself when you die and keep on trying.
    I always just dropped to Hard difficulty if we couldn't find an experienced evasion swimmer...

    I never understood why people would stand around for 30 minutes in order to keep an elite streak alive. Not that hard to build it back up again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  8. #468
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Nope, you're wrong... It's not boring when you do it slow. Ergo, not grinding. I still look forward to every new area on my TRs because it's been 3 months since I last played it.

    Just like I can repeat Mafia 2 a year after playing it and it's still fun. If I repeated it a week after finishing it, it would be grinding. Fast or slow definitely makes a difference.
    Doing something boring is boring regardless of the speed.

    Your point is inane.

  9. #469
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Nope, you're wrong... It's not boring when you do it slow. Ergo, not grinding. I still look forward to every new area on my TRs because it's been 3 months since I last played it.

    Just like I can repeat Mafia 2 a year after playing it and it's still fun. If I repeated it a week after finishing it, it would be grinding. Fast or slow definitely makes a difference.
    Grind is repeating the same content over and over for loot/xp. It's great that you've found a way to make it more fun and less boring, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still Grind.

  10. #470
    Community Member Sonofmoradin's Avatar
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    Procceed with the epic TR system, but at least respect the people that want to play endgame by giving them a small percent of xp that could be used towards a new TR. (Even if you are capped in an ED.)
    Founder member of aLiclan

  11. #471
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Grind is repeating the same content over and over for loot/xp. It's great that you've found a way to make it more fun and less boring, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still Grind.
    Why do you guys even play this game? Is grind good? Grind to me sound bad. But you guys claim everything in the game is grind. So if everything is grind, and grind is bad, why would you spend hours every day grinding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  12. #472
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I am a huge proponent of PUGs, but the problem with the Crucible was not that it encouraged PUGs but rather that it required a particular type of player to join your group.
    This is a flatly false statement and needs to stop being perpetuated as truth. A high reflex evasion toon is only required for groups that consist of people too lazy and too rushed to learn for themselves. Go in on casual, do the swim on a non-evasion toon. Learn how to dodge the spikes. You don't have to complete the quest, so there's no risk of streak breakage. Now go in on Normal. When you can successfully do that, try hard. Then go in on Elite and get your BB streak bonus. It can and has been done without evasion.

    The "gimmy-gimmy nnnaaaaooooowww!!!! and don't make me think or problem solve to get it!!!1!111!!!1!" issues that perpetuate the myth that one must wait for a high reflex evasion swimmer are the same issues that brought us "undead are hard."

    Suck it up cupcake, other people learned how to do that swim on a pure fighter, you can too!
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  13. #473
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Doing something boring is boring regardless of the speed.

    Your point is inane.
    It's not boring to me, because I don't repeat the same quest 5x in one day, then again the next day, then again the next day, then again the next day. It's not boring when you play a fun quest once, then again 3 months later, or even a week later.

    How is this hard to understand? If every quest is boring to you, why are you still playing this game? You guys really sound irrational, spending hours and hours every day playing a game you find boring and grindy.

    Why would you do that? I'm guessing maybe the game isn't as boring and grindy as you claim. It's either that or you're crazy to keep playing it.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 09-22-2013 at 01:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  14. #474
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Because there is a theoretical goal to achieve but the game inherently sets it too high to achieve within short time by grind. According to your playstyle, you never reach that same goal since you play once in a while.

    I stopped mindless loot grind. Sometimes the greed bites me and I run ee tor several times in a row. But not every day.

    Since tomes are removed from lvl. 27 chests there is no big incentive for me to advance my characters. I don't like TR. I'd like it if it needed half the exp or the exp of a TR1. Now there is a new system to give you the hamster wheel... too less gain for too much work. The carrot is there but I gave up on jumping towards it.

    So I wait till christmas time probably before playing again, if ever. Till then I troll the forum a bit. ;P
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  15. #475
    Community Member Sonofmoradin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Because there is a theoretical goal to achieve but the game inherently sets it too high to achieve within short time by grind. According to your playstyle, you never reach that same goal since you play once in a while.

    I stopped mindless loot grind. Sometimes the greed bites me and I run ee tor several times in a row. But not every day.

    Since tomes are removed from lvl. 27 chests there is no big incentive for me to advance my characters. I don't like TR. I'd like it if it needed half the exp or the exp of a TR1. Now there is a new system to give you the hamster wheel... too less gain for too much work. The carrot is there but I gave up on jumping towards it.

    So I wait till christmas time probably before playing again, if ever. Till then I troll the forum a bit. ;P
    I pulled an unbound +5 int tome in ee stormhorn quest

    *People are so fixed in their debate that noone read my proposal above..?
    Last edited by Sonofmoradin; 09-22-2013 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Add a line
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  16. #476
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Why do you guys even play this game? Is grind good? Grind to me sound bad. But you guys claim everything in the game is grind. So if everything is grind, and grind is bad, why would you spend hours every day grinding?
    I didn't say grind is bad, thank you. I also did not say that everything in the game is grind. MMOs need time sinks, among other kinds of sinks. Need. The question of the day is HOW will Turbine implement TimeSink in a meaningful way, while both introducing new things (content, loot, abilities, etc.) AND avoiding boring things (running in off destinies, replaying a small handful of quests, easy-buttons, etc.).

    As to why we play, it's directly connected to the things I just mentioned. New things. Entertainment.

  17. #477
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I didn't say grind is bad, thank you. I also did not say that everything in the game is grind. MMOs need time sinks, among other kinds of sinks. Need. The question of the day is HOW will Turbine implement TimeSink in a meaningful way, while both introducing new things (content, loot, abilities, etc.) AND avoiding boring things (running in off destinies, replaying a small handful of quests, easy-buttons, etc.).

    As to why we play, it's directly connected to the things I just mentioned. New things. Entertainment.
    This exactly. Some grind is needed, and some grind is good. However there is some grind that is bad, running ed's in off destinies to get fate points was a very bad grind for example, while the seal, shard, scroll grind was a good grind imo (some seals and shards could have used adjustments but overall). Turbine has gone to a total xp grind for endgame lately with a minimal gear grind and honestly that gets very old very very fast in my book because it doesn't have the entertainment value of raiding or running good content.

  18. #478
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonofmoradin View Post
    I pulled an unbound +5 int tome in ee stormhorn quest

    *People are so fixed in their debate that noone read my proposal above..?
    Ee Stormhorn. Exactly.
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  19. #479
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's not boring to me, because I don't repeat the same quest 5x in one day, then again the next day, then again the next day, then again the next day. It's not boring when you play a fun quest once, then again 3 months later, or even a week later.

    How is this hard to understand? If every quest is boring to you, why are you still playing this game? You guys really sound irrational, spending hours and hours every day playing a game you find boring and grindy.

    Why would you do that? I'm guessing maybe the game isn't as boring and grindy as you claim. It's either that or you're crazy to keep playing it.
    People are playing less and less because of what some perceive as a pointless grind. It ceases to be entertaining. Yes, we do play less because we aren't crazy. While that's fine for us, alternative diversion and entertainment is not hard to find, it's probably in Turbine's best interest to find better ways to entertain us.

    In the meantime, we tell them what we think about their ideas. That way they have some way to gauge how well recieved it will be and if it'll be profitable or not. They seem to have sort of hit their saturation point of players. They're not really growing that much, from all accounts. So the "same old, same old" just doesn't hold as much water as a way to pay the bills.

    Yes, there are less and less people playing because people are getting bored of doing the same old thing. That's not really a good thing. That same old thing has to be very entertaining to not just bore people away.

    You have to remember that it's not a subscription based game anymore, not really. The fact I still log on and do some stuff every now and then doesn't inspire me to spend anything on the game. Yes, we stil find things we enjoy, but as it becomes less we either say so or we go away. Perhaps you'd like the powergamers to go away. But I really doubt that will help keep DDO profitable.

    So stating what people don't like about the game doesn't necessarily hurt the game. It gives input to the developers on what some/most/whatever people think is done right and what is done wrong. It's up to them to interpret how useful that input is and what to do with it.

  20. #480
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Vote No for Epic TR? I vote "Hell Yeah" for Epic TR and Iconic TR.

    I come back from a week up a mountain and this is the top of the forum?

    What kind of crazy have you been up to?

    Stupidest thing I've read all day .... but the day is still young

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