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  1. #261
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is false right here. Turbine has had it both ways now for 7 years. The difficulty system has allowed newer players to join and learn at their own pace, while the SAME difficulty system allows veterans who arent challenged any other way to run quests on the hardest possible difficulty.

    The people afraid of the unknown are the ones who complained until crucible was taken out of the flagging chain, complained until the Shroud blades were trivialized to the point where no strategy is needed, complained until neg levels and stat damage were no longer a threat, complained the game was too tough until it got scaling to trivialize it for soloers, complained about not being able to run RwtD on elite solo even though theres 3 other lower difficulties it can be set to, and complained about the way ubergamers play, instead of being willing to lead their own groups and find like minded players to play with.

    The people who are afraid of the unknown are those who want Turbine to code the game to satisfy their needs at the expense of others. This game already gave us quests AND raids for 7 years. Those afraid of the unknown want to take focus the raids which do not meet their own agenda, when in fact, each time we get a raid, we also get plenty of quests along with it. Those afraid of the unknown are the ones lobbying to take a game that has been able to cater to multiple playstyles, and cater to their own playstyle, at the expense of everyone elses.

    And then you try to tell others they arent playing as intended? Raids have been in this game since day one. Not intended? I think you need to do some homework before trying to slip that kind of stuff past experienced players who have been here since the game could be bought in a box.

    When titan was "too much challenge" in 2006 people complained about it.
    When shroud was "too much challenge" in 2007-2008 people complained about it.
    When crucible was "too much challenge" people complained about it, and it was removed from flagging requirements.

    We have seen over the years when something is coded to be chasllenging, that the self entitled do show up to the boards and complain about it. They want to be able to participate, but they dont want to have to deal with the learning curve associated with learning challenging content. This is why crucible was removed from the flagging loop and the dragons in tor no longer have to be done to flag.

    So saying they cant make it challenging, is a myth. They can, and have in the past, but the sheer quantity of complaining that occurred afterward is the reason why changes were made over the years to make the game very easy.
    This

    Bring back challenge or change the DDO banner to what DDO really is now.

  2. #262
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    This

    Bring back challenge or change the DDO banner to what DDO really is now.
    Farmville with dragons?

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    fragmentation and hatred?
    are loathing and condescenion invited?

  4. #264
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    So much of the handfull of anti-endgame sentiment here is people who are newer and less far along in their "MMO journey". Not trying to be patronizing because that was me a few years back. Many years ago I played DDO for the first time and read the forums, and didn't understand why anyone would care about "endgame" (I came over from UO a sandbox MMO) the journey was the reward, level 12 was as much fun to me as level 20 would be in my mind (because I didn't have capped characters)... then I Capped a few characters and suddenly I understood why I wanted an "endgame" even if it was a slow advancement for loot that would make it easier to play what I was already playing.

    Because all that character advancement and those cool build ideas get to be "semi finished" and you get to stretch your builds legs in content that is challenging and holds interesting gear that can make your build more fun to play. Believe me those of you who don't know: the old level 20 end game was a thriving constantly LFM'ed destination that many people stayed for "20 raid completions of X Y and Z" before they TR'ed. When that went away my level 20 characters became 25's and there was nothing to do unless I needed something in CitW... ONE RAID, then FoT made it 2, I don't like them as raids OR need much in them, I have ONE character that needs a Celestia because I literally built it to use it (with the thought that I would have something to do with that character because of that)... But the lack of ANYTHING ELSE TO DO makes it so I rarely bother logging that character in. I got her a Sages Skullcap for Radiance Lore and SP, and that was all there was to do in the new pack that held any interest for me. Why level to 28?

    You see when you get there and there's nothing to do (as their currently is nothing there to do) you ask the questions much quicker and with much more definite and inescapable conclusion: "why did I bother capping at all?". If you're not into TR'ing (and I'm not) the game that used to have a built in "slow character finishing loot grind" no longer holds anything for me except Alt's.

    It's like taking a fun trip that just leads to a sudden dead end in the middle of nowhere. Meh now what? this sucks!.... Now if you had taken the same fun trip and the Amusement park had been where you ended up...

    I'm just saying the trip can be fun, but there needs to be something fun to do when you get their, besides just turning it around and making the trip all over again via TR. If you don't understand that, cap a few characters, give it some time, you will understand it, because I went through the exact same journey.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.
    The old TR grind is infinitely more entertaining than any other MMO's end-game in which you sit around and grind the same 4 raids every 3 days(except DDO has bypass timers... could you potentially be supporting another painful cash grab?).

    In concept at least, Epic TR offers much more excitment. Once they get the system in place, THEN they can focus on more epic content throughout the whole range of levels, not just have to keep making harder and harder raids.

    I don't know if any of you played WoW, but here's how "end game" worked back in the vanilla days. You had a series of raids that were all very challenging. So you'd start out with the smallest raids, and farm them for months until everyone had full sets of gear(1 specific set per class, the ultimate cookie-cutter). Once you "finished" you'd move on to the next hardest, and the next hardest, and so on. And that was it. Every 3 days run a raid. Repeat for 3-6 months. Move on to a new raid. Repeat. Repeat.

    Who wants that for DDO? TR is worlds more entertaining. Epic TR? maybe not worlds more, but I'd still take that over anything I've seen in other games.

  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.
    1. Sorry, I actually like the epic destiny system, it's not without it's bugs and needed updates...but I like it.
    2. Raids are not the end all for content. I actually like how fast the new raids are coming out.
    3. This does need to be fixed, end loot is either FAR to difficult to get and/or just not worth the time.
    4. shard exchange is just fine.
    5. Epic TR sounds fine to me...Gives the grinders more stuff to grind if they want to.
    6. I have so few toons that stay at the end game for a long period that it is just fine for me...I usually TR within a month or so of hitting "end game"
    7. This is true, although they are trying to do something about this...it's just not enough. They have ameliorated the bad grind with repeat quest changed...but some quests are far too long and difficult for the xp granted.

  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When crucible was "too much challenge" people complained about it, and it was removed from flagging requirements.
    That's not entirely true; the complaint wasn't that it was way to much of an challenge, it's because the mechanic is really for a group but can be done solo with some fiddling. Beating stuff over the head was never the issue.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is false right here. Turbine has had it both ways now for 7 years. The difficulty system has allowed newer players to join and learn at their own pace, while the SAME difficulty system allows veterans who arent challenged any other way to run quests on the hardest possible difficulty.

    The people afraid of the unknown are the ones who complained until crucible was taken out of the flagging chain, complained until the Shroud blades were trivialized to the point where no strategy is needed, complained until neg levels and stat damage were no longer a threat, complained the game was too tough until it got scaling to trivialize it for soloers, complained about not being able to run RwtD on elite solo even though theres 3 other lower difficulties it can be set to, and complained about the way ubergamers play, instead of being willing to lead their own groups and find like minded players to play with.

    The people who are afraid of the unknown are those who want Turbine to code the game to satisfy their needs at the expense of others. This game already gave us quests AND raids for 7 years. Those afraid of the unknown want to take focus the raids which do not meet their own agenda, when in fact, each time we get a raid, we also get plenty of quests along with it. Those afraid of the unknown are the ones lobbying to take a game that has been able to cater to multiple playstyles, and cater to their own playstyle, at the expense of everyone elses.

    And then you try to tell others they arent playing as intended? Raids have been in this game since day one. Not intended? I think you need to do some homework before trying to slip that kind of stuff past experienced players who have been here since the game could be bought in a box.

    When titan was "too much challenge" in 2006 people complained about it.
    When shroud was "too much challenge" in 2007-2008 people complained about it.
    When crucible was "too much challenge" people complained about it, and it was removed from flagging requirements.

    We have seen over the years when something is coded to be chasllenging, that the self entitled do show up to the boards and complain about it. They want to be able to participate, but they dont want to have to deal with the learning curve associated with learning challenging content. This is why crucible was removed from the flagging loop and the dragons in tor no longer have to be done to flag.

    So saying they cant make it challenging, is a myth. They can, and have in the past, but the sheer quantity of complaining that occurred afterward is the reason why changes were made over the years to make the game very easy.


    you do realize that turbine has actual data that states in various forms that the majority of players found the content to difficult

    that the changes were made based on what the data showed....now you can say that thier interpration of the underlying causes behind the difficulty is flawed so therefore thier responce is flawed

    but you cant really refute cold hard numbers

    and by the way i see lots of people struggling with the content

    self entitled? its a fricken game its about fun

    you see all the builds on the forums? see all the exploits and bugs people find? many players do EVERYTHING they can to make the content as easy as possisble and then complain about no challenge

  9. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    you do realize that turbine has actual data that states in various forms that the majority of players found the content to difficult

    that the changes were made based on what the data showed....now you can say that thier interpration of the underlying causes behind the difficulty is flawed so therefore thier responce is flawed

    but you cant really refute cold hard numbers

    and by the way i see lots of people struggling with the content

    self entitled? its a fricken game its about fun

    you see all the builds on the forums? see all the exploits and bugs people find? many players do EVERYTHING they can to make the content as easy as possisble and then complain about no challenge
    I doubt they have data that shows people thinking it was to difficult. Maybe that there were too many quests that required a group mechanic, but there has been both very easy quests and harder since. What has definitely changed is that most groups have become guild or buddy runs. What's left is TR byoh runs. It's nothing wrong with that, but the data probably hinted towards a blend of groups around gilds and hardcore players and that of solo and casual. And if there's a large enough pool of casual players you're in a bind when it comes to creating content that is both challenging and 'easy' enough (mechanic wise) to solo.

    The market is changing; MMOs are no longer an exclusive ground for social grouping. And a game will live, die or survive as niche based on how it reacts to that condition. I don't envy Turbine at all - but I have no sympathy for the botched xpack even if it might hurt me as a longtime player unless Turbine figure out how to drag themselves out of that.

  10. #270
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    That's not entirely true; the complaint wasn't that it was way to much of an challenge, it's because the mechanic is really for a group but can be done solo with some fiddling. Beating stuff over the head was never the issue.
    I saw alot more complaining about dying in the swim than anything else - and that complaining was done by those who absolutely refused to play it on a lower difficulty if they cant beat it on elite - aka those who are entitled to the XP an elite run brings but dont want to be confronted with an elite challenge.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I doubt they have data that shows people thinking it was to difficult. Maybe that there were too many quests that required a group mechanic, but there has been both very easy quests and harder since. What has definitely changed is that most groups have become guild or buddy runs. What's left is TR byoh runs. It's nothing wrong with that, but the data probably hinted towards a blend of groups around gilds and hardcore players and that of solo and casual. And if there's a large enough pool of casual players you're in a bind when it comes to creating content that is both challenging and 'easy' enough (mechanic wise) to solo.

    The market is changing; MMOs are no longer an exclusive ground for social grouping. And a game will live, die or survive as niche based on how it reacts to that condition. I don't envy Turbine at all - but I have no sympathy for the botched xpack even if it might hurt me as a longtime player unless Turbine figure out how to drag themselves out of that.
    thier data would show facts like number of deaths/quests, what mobs killed the most players,what quests were ran what class/classes and a multitude of other recorded facts......

    "I doubt they have data that shows people thinking it was to difficult. Maybe that there were too many quests that required a group mechanic" this would be an example of something they would try to interpate from the facts and then make changes based on thier interpratation of the data

  12. #272
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    you do realize that turbine has actual data that states in various forms that the majority of players found the content to difficult
    Yeap, the posts on these very forums make up a good portion of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    that the changes were made based on what the data showed....now you can say that thier interpration of the underlying causes behind the difficulty is flawed so therefore thier responce is flawed

    but you cant really refute cold hard numbers
    And which cold hard numbers would those be exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    and by the way i see lots of people struggling with the content
    Then they are playing too high of a difficulty level.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    self entitled? its a fricken game its about fun
    When they post that they are entitled to elite XP and anythign less due to running on hard or normal is a punitive XP penalty they shouldnt have to deal with, it sounds like their idea of fun is all reward with no risk. THey also label a failure to complete a quest a colossal waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    you see all the builds on the forums? see all the exploits and bugs people find? many players do EVERYTHING they can to make the content as easy as possisble and then complain about no challenge
    Yeap, they rules lawyer that its WAI until Turbine states otherwise, then complain theres nothing left to do in the game when they handedly beat it in the quickest time possible. Kind of an odd point to make if advocating TRing over endgame focus, because it reinforces my point exactly.

  13. #273
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    thier data would show facts like number of deaths/quests, what mobs killed the most players,what quests were ran what class/classes and a multitude of other recorded facts......

    "I doubt they have data that shows people thinking it was to difficult. Maybe that there were too many quests that required a group mechanic" this would be an example of something they would try to interpate from the facts and then make changes based on thier interpratation of the data
    Right exactly. And when that data shows players chose elite difficulty, and couldnt hang after repeated attempts, the interpretation of the data should be "need to open the quest on hard" rather than "lets make this easier so first lifers with a week of DDo experience can run it on elite with no risk".

  14. #274
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    I want an end game raid where we fight the mother of all rust monsters.....we can't use any gear or she will eat it. We have to punch her to death in an antimagic field.
    Officer - Eternal Wrath
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  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right exactly. And when that data shows players chose elite difficulty, and couldnt hang after repeated attempts, the interpretation of the data should be "need to open the quest on hard" rather than "lets make this easier so first lifers with a week of DDo experience can run it on elite with no risk".
    your presuming you know what thier logs recorded ....and then use that presumption to support your particular argument ....this is a prevalent tactic on forums

    very bad science

  16. #276
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    your presuming you know what thier logs recorded ....and then use that presumption to support your particular argument ....this is a prevalent tactic on forums

    very bad science
    My presumptions are always right. Just start parroting my opinions, you might like being right for a change.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So much of the handfull of anti-endgame sentiment here is people who are newer and less far along in their "MMO journey". Not trying to be patronizing because that was me a few years back. Many years ago I played DDO for the first time and read the forums, and didn't understand why anyone would care about "endgame" (I came over from UO a sandbox MMO) the journey was the reward, level 12 was as much fun to me as level 20 would be in my mind (because I didn't have capped characters)... then I Capped a few characters and suddenly I understood why I wanted an "endgame" even if it was a slow advancement for loot that would make it easier to play what I was already playing.

    Because all that character advancement and those cool build ideas get to be "semi finished" and you get to stretch your builds legs in content that is challenging and holds interesting gear that can make your build more fun to play. Believe me those of you who don't know: the old level 20 end game was a thriving constantly LFM'ed destination that many people stayed for "20 raid completions of X Y and Z" before they TR'ed. When that went away my level 20 characters became 25's and there was nothing to do unless I needed something in CitW... ONE RAID, then FoT made it 2, I don't like them as raids OR need much in them, I have ONE character that needs a Celestia because I literally built it to use it (with the thought that I would have something to do with that character because of that)... But the lack of ANYTHING ELSE TO DO makes it so I rarely bother logging that character in. I got her a Sages Skullcap for Radiance Lore and SP, and that was all there was to do in the new pack that held any interest for me. Why level to 28?

    You see when you get there and there's nothing to do (as their currently is nothing there to do) you ask the questions much quicker and with much more definite and inescapable conclusion: "why did I bother capping at all?". If you're not into TR'ing (and I'm not) the game that used to have a built in "slow character finishing loot grind" no longer holds anything for me except Alt's.

    It's like taking a fun trip that just leads to a sudden dead end in the middle of nowhere. Meh now what? this sucks!.... Now if you had taken the same fun trip and the Amusement park had been where you ended up...

    I'm just saying the trip can be fun, but there needs to be something fun to do when you get their, besides just turning it around and making the trip all over again via TR. If you don't understand that, cap a few characters, give it some time, you will understand it, because I went through the exact same journey.
    I absolutely disagree. It's quite clear who is where on their "ddo" journey, and it's quite clear who was where when they proclaim how "hard" DDO used to be. Quite frankly, everyone proclaiming about the challenge of DDO past were noobs at the time. It's quite evident. There's several of us telling you that DDO wasn't at all challenging in the past for good players, yet you just completely skip over this.

    What has happened is that you used to be noobs, and over the years you have gotten better. There comes a point after playing every game where everything just clicks and a game has "broken wide open". While you weren't in this place in the past where you seem to think the game had some mythical challenge, you are now. Basically you are now where we were then. The truth is that challenge is never coming back. You have evolved as players.

    After a player "breaks a game wide open", there's many things they can do. They can leave and find other games where they will find a challenge. They can stay because they still have fun with the game, even though there is no challenge. They can play a lot less, enjoying the social aspect. But the one thing that doesn't work is to try and reclaim that challenge that was only ever present due to the inability of the player.

    There has to be some drastic changes to DDO for there to be any sort of endgame that the couple of you are proposing. Quite frankly, the response has been loud and clear. Any type of grinding for useless loot doesn't make an endgame, and a game designed around this is ridiculous. In order for grinding for loot to be a good design choice, there has to be some sort of reason to grind for that loot. And that would be the actual endgame. This can include many things, from real pvp to absolutely devastating raids that require months to first beat and can only be beaten with said loot that you grind from the "pre-endgame".

    Without any of that, any sort of design choice for DDO that revolves around grinding three quests for needless loot will be a failure. Only a small percentage of players will ever buy into it, and then the moans won't stop. There will be the sort of things that you like, but there still won't be people there to play with.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    you do realize that turbine has actual data that states in various forms that the majority of players found the content to difficult

    that the changes were made based on what the data showed....now you can say that thier interpration of the underlying causes behind the difficulty is flawed so therefore thier responce is flawed

    but you cant really refute cold hard numbers

    and by the way i see lots of people struggling with the content

    self entitled? its a fricken game its about fun

    you see all the builds on the forums? see all the exploits and bugs people find? many players do EVERYTHING they can to make the content as easy as possisble and then complain about no challenge
    +

    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    your presuming you know what thier logs recorded ....and then use that presumption to support your particular argument ....this is a prevalent tactic on forums

    very bad science
    =

    Does not compute.

    I'm glad to see that hypocrisy is still an acceptable method of proving a point.


    Oh, and raids all the way. Give my guild and I something to do that doesn't involve sticking a hot poker in my eye like TRing does.

  19. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I saw alot more complaining about dying in the swim than anything else - and that complaining was done by those who absolutely refused to play it on a lower difficulty if they cant beat it on elite - aka those who are entitled to the XP an elite run brings but dont want to be confronted with an elite challenge.
    That might be true, but I do not honestly think it changed because of that. This game have changed away from challenge of group mechanics to soloing for a long time. See how they changed TOR. Maybe they figured it's easier to change the flagging quests then to adjust a quest mechanic - I mean the quest wouldn't really be the same if it was changed.

    Turbine is reacting to the circumstances and to survive the can either cater to the survivalists that buy a little ammo but make their own beef jerky or the one pitching a tent that want electricity for their fridge, TV and a pre-cooked meal every single night.

    It's not about right and wrong, it's about finding a balance between those two realities.

  20. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    thier data would show facts like number of deaths/quests, what mobs killed the most players,what quests were ran what class/classes and a multitude of other recorded facts......

    "I doubt they have data that shows people thinking it was to difficult. Maybe that there were too many quests that required a group mechanic" this would be an example of something they would try to interpate from the facts and then make changes based on thier interpratation of the data
    That's why we have difficulty levels and that they're adjusted in pretty much all packs. Some are very hard on elite and they never changed it and others are relatively easy. But nothing prevents anyone from doing it on normal or hard unless they feel they're entitled to elite streaks.

    I hope Turbine will NEVER dumb down the game so much that elite streaks becomes the norm to balance things around.

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