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  1. #241
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    And no casuals rarely got into shrouds most shrouds have always been very very intolerant of first timers. Hence the era where most first timers simply kept their mouth shut tried to follow along without asking questions, end up dieing, being called apiker, and quit the game feeling disgusted and frustrated.
    Seriously what game are you playing? People intolerant of new players . . . in Shroud? What year are you talking about?

  2. #242
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    not at all true during the era of GS being end all be all everyone ran their stable of toons only on the raids and just didnt log in when on timer, hence one of the reasons for raid timers as people exist in DDO who still play taht way and will buy those timer resets because that is the only content they will play. Its just who they are in DDO after all these years.

    And no casuals rarely got into shrouds most shrouds have always been very very intolerant of first timers. Hence the era where most first timers simply kept their mouth shut tried to follow along without asking questions, end up dieing, being called apiker, and quit the game feeling disgusted and frustrated.
    Incorrect. Casual players ran the shroud all the time. The mentality you speak of existed mostly on the forums, and not in game. Most of us know better than to take the extremeist posting of players trying to wave their elitism around on the forums as what happens in the totality of all game experiences.

    Edit: Yeah, I remember people on the forums posting that a minute they waste in the shroud is a minute that could have been used in the next shroud run. In the 7+ years Ive played, almost 6 of which the shroud was in this game, Ive never encountered the mentality in game, even though Ive seen it expressed on the forums many times. Most of the people ive seen scream and shout at players for making mistakes left because no one wants to group with them.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-20-2013 at 11:57 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #243
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    In fact most groups LOVE to have newbies in Shroud, just for the fun of getting the Secret Chest. Shroud is the icon raid for cutting teeth, more so even than Spine. It's the melting pot between Vets and Newbs, one of the first places the two groups mingle. Where vets get a chance to teach organisation and teamwork. Where newbs get a chance to learn raid leadership in a low pressure environment. Yes, I've seen the odd 'selective' Shroud, but they're the exception not the rule.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    The problem with PvP is that it is virtually impossible to balance the game for that and PvE at the same time. This game's playerbase is here in many cases because they hate PvP -- myself included -- and if they start tinkering with things because of PvP considerations, or make PvP more prominent, that's probably the one thing that really would make me leave.
    The thing with that mistruth is if you hop in the brawl pit for example, your in a pvp environment. You already can't cast certain spells in there. At one point in time they were experimenting with inflated hit points in the pvp environment. They could make some adjustments to the pvp environment without it having any impact what so ever on the rest of the game. And since everything you join is an instance anyhow, it would never be in your face pvp...you wouldn't have to worry about people joining your quests just to pk you, it would be optional, kind of like it already is.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Incorrect. Casual players ran the shroud all the time.
    I'd have to disagree. Most shroud runs would make you link your boss beater if they didn't know you/hadn't run with you before. Metallines of pure good back then sold for a few hundred thousand, which was a ton of plat to a casual player, so there was a point in time where even shroud runs were exclusionary to casuals. Not that I could really blame people, if you got to harry and didn't have the dps because nobody had boss beaters you'd fail every time.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It matters because I'm right and you're wrong. This was a factual thing, I'm stating a casual player won't do this more than 1-2 times because of how long it'll take. Also stating it WILL be boring because of the need to repeat content getting to 28.




    Nonsense. Trolls are immortal.
    I have a campaign that suggest otherwise about trolls being immortal since it involves an aged troll shaman dieing from well old age, desperate to aquire a potion of longevity.

    Likewise trolls live in forest and under bridges made often of wood, both are often subject to fires from natural events like me playing with a box of tindertwigs near your home along with a flask of alchemist fire. Hm are tolls possibly D&Ds version of smokey the bear. it would make sense.

  7. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I'd have to disagree. Most shroud runs would make you link your boss beater if they didn't know you/hadn't run with you before. Metallines of pure good back then sold for a few hundred thousand, which was a ton of plat to a casual player, so there was a point in time where even shroud runs were exclusionary to casuals. Not that I could really blame people, if you got to harry and didn't have the dps because nobody had boss beaters you'd fail every time.
    That might've happened after they started fidgeting with the DR and fort dependent on difficulty level but when the raid was most active that was never an issue. In fact there was no shortage of any raid going during the hay day. There was 1-3 shroud raids in the LFM at all times and only hard to fill at odd hours. The only one hard to fill were ToD and only because it was harder finding flagging parties and people with completed boots. The great part was the high rate of fail, higher then any other raid (almost higher then Hound).

    Sure - the new levels made all these trivial and the only staying power left is Shroud and GS, but it's not impossible for Turbine to rekindle the days of Shroud. Maybe they can't revive the player base but if they stick to a formula of easy to get to raids with about a 30 minutes fun romb it'll be more inclusive then coordinate some of the raids of late. Chronosphere is awesome. Back in the day it was the hard raid. But it required no flagging and was accessible to everyone. Shroud was like that too and since there was no shortgage of flagging quests running it was easy enough to pull stones, get or buy mats and get flagged. And after VON changed to flag once it has been a pretty stable staple since.

    LoB. That died. Terrible convoluted scheme to upgrade with a terrible cut between heroic and epic with a uncoordinated way of getting everyone together. It's even worse then subt's raids.

    DQ - people ran it often enough - now the items are just way too subpar. Who wants that armor when you can get Seeker on practically anything? And the ring of spell storing? I think it's a myth. But worst of all, still need to 're-flag' of sort even if it's sub 30 minute run overall. It just makes it hard to coordinate.

    The current raids are FoT and citw with a sprinkle of Shroud, Von and Chrono as far as I can tell.

    Now add heroic Comms to all epics, flag one mechanisms and tele to the front of the actual quests (such as LoB) and you will have a slowly reviving raid scene again. Without creating new raids. I think new raids are only a symptom of trying to get something better then the random stuff dropping now that killed everything else. I bet it would be time better spent if Turbine figured out why these epic raids are dead and fix it.

    Why? Well think about it - if we are going to ETR and get on that hamster wheel it might be cool to finalize those level 20 epic items for use.

    I love raids and I am pretty 'casual' as a gamer. I have TR'd but don't grind it. I run a couple of hours and level in the pace I do - but there's a great void in the game. Maybe Turbine is just pulling in so many direction without firm aim. And by adding some pieces together they can broaden the content for everything while still offering so much for everyone.

    I do understand that some people like Abbott type raids with puzzle mechanics but outside shroud I only think it works for the smitten. It's better to do Chrono type raids. Fairly fast, somewhat varied and with stages within a seamless design. FoT works too. Challenge + coordination + speed. Make it quick and smart. The more we keep everything within 30 minutes the easier it is to coordinate groups between the hardcore and the casual.

    But if it's more like citw and LoB you get time commitments and that's why groups don't fill. It's like watching a movie. We know it's running at 8PM - how long would we stick around if it's 8.45 and no show yet? Casual players have a completely different time span in mind. It's like temporary entertainment between free time. It's easy to hardcore gamers to spend hours and hours doing something but that won't work for people who primarily is looking for simple fun.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Jettison? No. Prioritize? Mandatory. This is not a huge company with large amounts of development resources (or we wouldn't have year-old exploits or massive game-breaking bugs that hang around for weeks). They have to decide on a style and stick with it.

    Given that there are already tons of raid-oriented games out there, and the fact that this game's structure makes it ill-suited to a heavy raid emphasis, AND the fact that a large percentage of players here have real lives, it doesn't make sense for them to focus all their attention on "endgame". They cannot compete with those games, nor should they try.



    We don't even know how it's going to work, so I'd say that's premature.

    I play heroic and epic levels. I play all the content, which is a big part of not getting bored.
    Q the end may be nigh for us all cus we are not to far from the same thought on this one, I feel raids are just pointless here because turbine cant produce them in a way taht would ever be worthwhile dev time spent considering the titan MMOs out there that are built to cater directly to huge numbers of hard core raiders. Just no reason to even try to spend rescources on such development here in DDO imo.

  9. #249
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    As I understand it, that's the design. Heroic TR will be completely separate from Epic TR. That's one of the reasons why the scrapped the whole blowing away all destinies they first envisioned. Now it'll be it's own 20-28 system. And I doubt that will change 'because that would probably break the mechanics.

    I want to see how the hamster wheel looks like tho; are they going to be able to fool me with a painting of the open skies in front of me or am I going to stare into a brick wall. Because destiny leveling have me staring into a brick wall and I'm just getting burnt out.
    Thank you for the information.

    Well if the TR systems are separate, then I am less concerned about the whole thing. Sure, epic tr is more grind, but this is an MMORPG. I expect the grind, and I expect to be on the wheel. That's just how these things work. At the same time, I don't enjoy leveling characters, whether it is in heroics or epics. The feats will really determine whether it is worth the grind for me or not.

    If an epic past life feat means a couple extra points to put into a destiny plus an additional benefit, that might be nice. For example, if legendary dreadnought gave +1 tactics, +1 action boost, +2 destiny points to spend in a tree (for a total of what...26?), that might be enough for me to do it. If fury gave something like +1 twf damage/+2 thf, +15hp with a couple extra destiny points...
    Just spit balling here;
    +1 enchantment dc, +1 song from fatesinger...
    +1 damage, +1 tactics from grandmaster
    +5 prr, +5% healing amp from sentinel...
    +1 evocation dc, +30sp from draconic...
    +1 necro, +1 spell pen from magister...
    +2 ranged damage, +1 dodge from shiradi ...
    Those types of epic past life feats plus the two additional destiny points per past life to spend (for a max total of +6 at third epic past life and beyond) would make the system just enticing enough for me to endure the grind. They would also get characters closer to consistent success with tactics and casting in the higher EEs.

    Maybe this is what these discussions should really be about. What the actual feats are going to be.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 09-20-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  10. #250
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I'd have to disagree. Most shroud runs would make you link your boss beater if they didn't know you/hadn't run with you before. Metallines of pure good back then sold for a few hundred thousand, which was a ton of plat to a casual player, so there was a point in time where even shroud runs were exclusionary to casuals. Not that I could really blame people, if you got to harry and didn't have the dps because nobody had boss beaters you'd fail every time.
    Yeah that was hard and elite runs, which frankly if you didn't have a dr breaker you didn't need to be on. You know back when heroic difficulty meant something?

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes there is, we're the good players.
    actually no your the very definition of playing the opposite of WAI play. You overly META GAME every speck of content, and make sure you keep all that data carved into stone in your mind so you never actually have to think when you replay content. You are afraid of the unknown and want it to be easy always. If not youd not be on about thinking EE should always be run in primary EDs.

    You cant ever have it both ways in an MMO if you want true challenge you must make it for yourself. If you want to be truly powerful then dont expect any challenging content as developing it is a waste of dev resources as enough wont bother playing such complete characters for long in only a small amount of content.

  12. #252
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I'd have to disagree. Most shroud runs would make you link your boss beater if they didn't know you/hadn't run with you before. Metallines of pure good back then sold for a few hundred thousand, which was a ton of plat to a casual player, so there was a point in time where even shroud runs were exclusionary to casuals. Not that I could really blame people, if you got to harry and didn't have the dps because nobody had boss beaters you'd fail every time.
    Most of the groups didnt require linking boss beaters. The people who put those up soon learned that no one was going to join those runs and the particular small number of people leading those raids would be ignored for the absurdity of kicking people from shrouds due to HP, boss beaters, or anything else the self proclaimed elite could find on MyDDO to criticize build/gear with. This was a mentality common on the forums, but rarely seen in game. their own negative mentality disrupted the entire premise of their being selective, which was to run shrouds as quickly as possible. THey would wait for 30 minutes being hilariously selective while most other groups would take the first 11 and run a normal run, complete it, jump out and grab end rewards, and then still see the other selective LFM up. WHen those few people tried to act like this was the best way to ensure a quick easy run, I pointed this out to them, repeatedly.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #253
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    actually no your the very definition of playing the opposite of WAI play. You overly META GAME every speck of content, and make sure you keep all that data carved into stone in your mind so you never actually have to think when you replay content. You are afraid of the unknown and want it to be easy always. If not youd not be on about thinking EE should always be run in primary EDs.

    You cant ever have it both ways in an MMO if you want true challenge you must make it for yourself. If you want to be truly powerful then dont expect any challenging content as developing it is a waste of dev resources as enough wont bother playing such complete characters for long in only a small amount of content.
    7 years of previous developement got it all wrong...... right............

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Thank you for the information.

    Well if the TR systems are separate, then I am less concerned about the whole thing. Sure, epic tr is more grind, but this is an MMORPG. I expect the grind, and I expect to be on the wheel. That's just how these things work. At the same time, I don't enjoy leveling characters, whether it is in heroics or epics. The feats will really determine whether it is worth the grind for me or not.

    If an epic past life feat means a couple extra points to put into a destiny plus an additional benefit, that might be nice. For example, if legendary dreadnought gave +1 tactics, +1 action boost, +2 destiny points to spend in a tree (for a total of what...26?), that might be enough for me to do it. If fury gave something like +1 twf damage/+2 thf, +15hp with a couple extra destiny points...
    Just spit baling here;
    +1 enchantment dc, +1 song from fatesinger...
    +1 damage, +1 tactics from grandmaster
    +5 prr, +5% healing amp from sentinel...
    +1 evocation dc, +30sp from draconic...
    +1 necro, +1 spell pen from magister...
    +2 ranged damage, +1 dodge from shiradi ...
    Those types of epic past life feats plus the two additional destiny points per past life to spend (for a max total of +6 at third epic past life and beyond) would make the system just enticing enough for me to endure the grind. They would also get characters closer to consistent success with tactics and casting in the higher EEs.

    Maybe this is what these discussions should really be about. What the actual feats are going to be.
    I definately want it to be separate, because for my arti (example) I can see doing some odds and ends like Druid and Paladin but the rest seem to have minuscule value at higher levels (at least for an arti) so I do it for the ability points and some heal amp and whatnot. And then I'd love to concentrate on epic TRing, provided that I see a good value for this toon. I don't think I have a stomach for heroic completionist. That chance and train have passed.

    We'll see. I am open minded and naive enough to let my hopes up before something crushes it, but I'm tepidly hopeful.

  15. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Most of the groups didnt require linking boss beaters. The people who put those up soon learned that no one was going to join those runs and the particular small number of people leading those raids would be ignored for the absurdity of kicking people from shrouds due to HP, boss beaters, or anything else the self proclaimed elite could find on MyDDO to criticize build/gear with. This was a mentality common on the forums, but rarely seen in game. their own negative mentality disrupted the entire premise of their being selective, which was to run shrouds as quickly as possible. THey would wait for 30 minutes being hilariously selective while most other groups would take the first 11 and run a normal run, complete it, jump out and grab end rewards, and then still see the other selective LFM up. WHen those few people tried to act like this was the best way to ensure a quick easy run, I pointed this out to them, repeatedly.
    I've done hundreds of shroud runs across all my toons. I can only think of two times when I needed to link it and that was when the DR and fort changed and shortly thereafter the idea of bossbeaters were kind of put to rest anyways by the addition of Arti's and their buffs. Plus as the level cap increased the DR became trivial. But bossbeaters were never an issue; but I have fond memories of coordination newbies through the different segments.

  16. #256
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    actually no your the very definition of playing the opposite of WAI play. You overly META GAME every speck of content, and make sure you keep all that data carved into stone in your mind so you never actually have to think when you replay content. You are afraid of the unknown and want it to be easy always. If not youd not be on about thinking EE should always be run in primary EDs.

    You cant ever have it both ways in an MMO if you want true challenge you must make it for yourself. If you want to be truly powerful then dont expect any challenging content as developing it is a waste of dev resources as enough wont bother playing such complete characters for long in only a small amount of content.
    This is false right here. Turbine has had it both ways now for 7 years. The difficulty system has allowed newer players to join and learn at their own pace, while the SAME difficulty system allows veterans who arent challenged any other way to run quests on the hardest possible difficulty.

    The people afraid of the unknown are the ones who complained until crucible was taken out of the flagging chain, complained until the Shroud blades were trivialized to the point where no strategy is needed, complained until neg levels and stat damage were no longer a threat, complained the game was too tough until it got scaling to trivialize it for soloers, complained about not being able to run RwtD on elite solo even though theres 3 other lower difficulties it can be set to, and complained about the way ubergamers play, instead of being willing to lead their own groups and find like minded players to play with.

    The people who are afraid of the unknown are those who want Turbine to code the game to satisfy their needs at the expense of others. This game already gave us quests AND raids for 7 years. Those afraid of the unknown want to take focus the raids which do not meet their own agenda, when in fact, each time we get a raid, we also get plenty of quests along with it. Those afraid of the unknown are the ones lobbying to take a game that has been able to cater to multiple playstyles, and cater to their own playstyle, at the expense of everyone elses.

    And then you try to tell others they arent playing as intended? Raids have been in this game since day one. Not intended? I think you need to do some homework before trying to slip that kind of stuff past experienced players who have been here since the game could be bought in a box.

    When titan was "too much challenge" in 2006 people complained about it.
    When shroud was "too much challenge" in 2007-2008 people complained about it.
    When crucible was "too much challenge" people complained about it, and it was removed from flagging requirements.

    We have seen over the years when something is coded to be chasllenging, that the self entitled do show up to the boards and complain about it. They want to be able to participate, but they dont want to have to deal with the learning curve associated with learning challenging content. This is why crucible was removed from the flagging loop and the dragons in tor no longer have to be done to flag.

    So saying they cant make it challenging, is a myth. They can, and have in the past, but the sheer quantity of complaining that occurred afterward is the reason why changes were made over the years to make the game very easy.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-20-2013 at 01:38 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #257
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    actually no your the very definition of playing the opposite of WAI play. You overly META GAME every speck of content, and make sure you keep all that data carved into stone in your mind so you never actually have to think when you replay content. You are afraid of the unknown and want it to be easy always. If not youd not be on about thinking EE should always be run in primary EDs.

    You cant ever have it both ways in an MMO if you want true challenge you must make it for yourself. If you want to be truly powerful then dont expect any challenging content as developing it is a waste of dev resources as enough wont bother playing such complete characters for long in only a small amount of content.
    So we're the good players? Got it.

  18. #258
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    So after reading an incredibly long amount of posts here, what I take away from it all on Turbine's position is that they are screwed, damned if they do damned if they don't.

    Half the people on the thread want to grind raids ad infinitum and call it endgame, half the people want to boff around and just have fun playing and have a variety of quests to do, and enjoy tr'ing in it's varied forms. Half see tr'ing as a hamster wheel of grind they don't want, half love it as play time in the game with variety of builds and experiences. That is going to be one heck of a dance for them to try to make a majority of players happy.

    This thread is one of the many, many reasons I'm happy I don't work at Turbine.
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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    So after reading an incredibly long amount of posts here, what I take away from it all on Turbine's position is that they are screwed, damned if they do damned if they don't.

    Half the people on the thread want to grind raids ad infinitum and call it endgame, half the people want to boff around and just have fun playing and have a variety of quests to do, and enjoy tr'ing in it's varied forms. Half see tr'ing as a hamster wheel of grind they don't want, half love it as play time in the game with variety of builds and experiences. That is going to be one heck of a dance for them to try to make a majority of players happy.

    This thread is one of the many, many reasons I'm happy I don't work at Turbine.
    Very glad that the extraordinarily vocal minority who use the forums aren't a real indication of the actual in game experience, or I'd think DDO was a war zone where varying play styles downright loathed each other.

    One thing I do find interesting, no one really feels as if their desired style of play is truly being represented. Maybe this can be used as a means of community unification instead of further fragmentation and hatred?

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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    Maybe this can be used as a means of community unification instead of further fragmentation and hatred?
    No.

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