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  1. #221
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Sorry but Raiding is not end game, running content for only gaining loot that has no meaning because your already in the highest lvl content already. We know the game will cap at 30, with that limit now stated we can assume content for that lvl will be the limit on powerful items we gain. The fact is its only ED and their ability that is worth playing the game to develop at this point. Its new ED and more twists slots that will keep players wanting to play to develop those abilities further.

    However Raids need to be seen as the flaw they always where because simply put if you see yourself as a hard core raid gamer you are on the WRONG game period. Go back to WoW but likely your here and not there not due to not liking that game but actually being a wowtard, someone who likes what wow does, but cant handle wow so goes to another smaller game and try to turn it into wowlite.

    The one thing WoW absolutely does best is raids, some other MMO try to and come close, all of them are the logical choices for hard core raiders, one of the most toxic part of DDOs community, and nothing about DDO would be hurt by those players finally letting go and moving on.

    No what DDO needs to do to make replaying it as a new alt or a TR is open up all content to all lvl ranges, this could be done simply by adapting the mechanics of challenges to all content, making no content for specific lvl ranges at all. Like wise named loot could have varied set effects and additional augment slots added based on the lvl of the content being set.

    Imagine if every alt, every life, you could pick what content you found most enjoyable in DDO whenever you wanted, at any lvl and run it for xp and loot. If no longer was content as end game themed as the vale was forced upon us in the mid teens and lvl 20+ content included wolves and other out of place elements for an adventurer looking to see otherworldly things could be chosen to be run at a lvl range that made it feel appropriate. Imagine how it would let us be able to govern and add to our individual play experiences.

    For example there are many quests in house K for example that feel often like they should be higher lvl simply based on the context of what we are doing, likewise there are many quests in the realms for example that to me feel like they would be far more applicable from a personal story experience to be run at much earlier levels.

    For a simple way to spell it out, if it has wolves and wild life that could in no sane way challenges a mighty warrior or well versed master of magic, id personally always try to run such content prior to lvl 10, and content that involved things like sentient undead, evil casters, and outsiders for my lvl 10-20 phase of playing.

    Even parts of Korthos like its final adventure to break the crystal while the dragon fights the mindflayer could become a worthy high lvl adventure in such a system.
    I'm not sure there are words in the English language that can properly describe how bad some of these ideas are.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope, they dont, because they clearly demonstreated they can cater to the raid crowd for 7 years, and keep the people who want to quest happy as well, so there is no reason or excuse to not keep doing so.
    This is a "good old days" type of argument. I've been here since before U11 and the complaints about engame were hot and heavy the day I started.

    And they never end, because powergamers cannot be satisfied.

    I don't want Turbine to ignore powergamers. I just don't want them to distort their priorities in favor of people who are disproportionately vocal on the forums, and who basically cannot have fun in the game no matter what because of their attitude and gameplay style. There is no point trying to please people who cannot be pleased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its just not too much to expect to get one raid in an expansion, especially when that expansion raised the level cap - which is where endgame happens.
    I agree. I paid $80 for the best version of that expansion and I found it poorly thought out, poorly implemented and a poor value. I will NOT be buying the next one if it looks anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I also play all the content and advocate doing so by other folks. In fact, many of the same people who challenged my claim that one can TR a 3rd+ life toon and never play the same content twice, are here now telling us how they play all the content and thats how they enjoy playing the game in a non repetitive fashion. Go figure.
    That's the Internet for ya.

  3. #223
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive been talking about this possibly happening for a while now. It wouldnt be too hard to datamine what people are buying the most of, and fill in the blanks. 40% sync? pffft, 100% sync.
    yup, but since it's all but bare on my server at least I'm 99% sure they aren't doing it.

    But they could.

    heck, at times I wish they would. It's not like I need 1000 feat swaps.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Ding ding! We have a winner.

    That's pretty much it.

    Not that I have any interest in PvP, mind you. If I want to be abused by a juvenile, I have them at home.
    Yeah, but its something different for people to do. Give us quests, give us raids, give us some better pvp, give us challenges, give us a random dungeon, keep developing crafting, give us epic tr, the more things I have to do the better. If I don't like a couple of the choices given to me, I'll just focus on the things I do like.

    The people screaming for a bunch of end game raids, I can see where they are coming from since they obviously like raids, but I don't see why turbine would want to go all in with raids being end game, because that simply doesn't appeal to a lot of players.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I like the destinies, but they do not encourage people to play the end game quests on epic elite because somebody has to be in a primary destiny or it takes longer if they do not. Somebody also does not get xp in epic elite like they do in epic normal or hard running a non end game quest.


    Raiding tends to help the end game as people do raiding and they play end game quests as well. Raids provide a foundation for the end game. Raids are not extremely popular in DDO according to Producer Rowan, but whatever.


    The named loot is not as good as random loot for the most part. You need to pick up more random loot to compare I guess. Named loot is a primary incentive to run a particular quest. Improved named loot at the least and a better loot system where we can better build upon past loot or get interesting exciting more customizeable loot.


    THe auction house has zero effect on my playing. I play this game for the experience of playing it, and the fun of actually doing the quests, not for the loot. Sure I like it when something nice drops, but if you handed me a set of the absolute best gear EVER for my toon right now, I would still play the same. It's a game. I like playing games. And the reverse could be argued here, it motivated people to grind for the gear to sell it to make plat/shards. I remember a LOT of raids where loot was left to rot in the chest because no one would use it. It was not by any means an uncommon occurrence either.





    I find the end game quests very fun actually. I dislike that I get terrible xp on the quests compared to other xp quests especially the xp per minute that you get on the epic elite difficulty.
    [/QUOTE]

    Uhm I may be confused but arent you often saying one should run EE only in a capped ED? If so then why does any end game having crappy XP bother you?
    Last edited by Karavek; 09-20-2013 at 12:02 PM.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope, they dont, because they clearly demonstreated they can cater to the raid crowd for 7 years, and keep the people who want to quest happy as well, so there is no reason or excuse to not keep doing so.
    Only reason I ran a lot of the old raids more then a few times apiece just to check them out, or because you actually needed the xp from them on tr lives back then, was because they had awesome twink gear for tr'ing. It wasn't because I thought waiting a half hour to fill a group thats biggest risk of wiping was lag was the most fun thing I could have been doing in game at the time.

  7. #227
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    The problem with PvP is that it is virtually impossible to balance the game for that and PvE at the same time. This game's playerbase is here in many cases because they hate PvP -- myself included -- and if they start tinkering with things because of PvP considerations, or make PvP more prominent, that's probably the one thing that really would make me leave.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm not sure there are words in the English language that can properly describe how bad some of these ideas are.
    Considering you think folks like maddmat and chai ever sayingthing but bad ideas yet you often seem to think their ideas worthy Ill take this as a huge compliment as if you thought my ideas good Id know they where trash

    Thanks for the troll attempt but your fear only feeds the darkness that I walk in

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    BUT I'VE ALREADY DONE THAT. This game is 7 years old. What you're advising is great for new players and the best way to experience quests THE FIRST FEW TIMES you run them.

    Seriously, once you've done a quest once it's meta-gaming. I guess I could get hammered drunk so I don't remember old content and it feels new again?

    And I do run about 90% of the quests while leveling, I just run them at warp-speed because I've run them before.

    I'm sorry, but advising a vet to slow down is just inane.
    yet you cant see how making all content open to all lvl ranges via adapting the challenge systems slider would expand the game ? There is NEVER a reason for a dev team to cater to the xp a min crowed. Not EVER!

  10. #230
    Community Member Deamus's Avatar
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    OP /signed.

    You 1000% right.
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  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You clearly have very little to no experience with how DDO "was designed" before you got here I base this opinion on previous threads where you've displayed this very evidently. So you really don't have any business claiming to know how it "always will be designed". Considering how many changes DDO has undergone your assertion looks like just something you decided to say randomly without any background or supporting logic to back it up.



    Again a baseless unsupported claim that appears to run counter to both common sense and past experience with the game (which again you don't appear to have, but which others very much do have).

    The level Cap was 20 for a very long time, "endgame" was everything from Shroud (which is still run and fills relatively easy though no where close to the old days) to VON5-6 (which is still run and fills quickly) and a BUNCH of other stuff that was run constantly despite being YEARS OLD... "endgame" was thriving during this time especially compared to now... even between updates... in fact the falloff and peaks were NOTHING AT ALL LIKE NOW... However almost all of those have loot that is very obsolete now, so no one runs them. Obsoleted by two ill-advised cap raises and a failure to buff them back up to endgame standards.

    So right now we have an example of how you want the game to be (empty and dieing between updates) and in the past when you apparently weren't around, we had an example of how the game used to be, thriving, MULTIPLE YEARS OF: of Hound's filling, TOD's, Abbots, Shrouds, DQ's, Epics that staid on the LFM panel FOR YEARS.

    I'm sorry but the only possible way you can conclude that the old style of endgame had worse peaks and troughs is if you made that thought up right then and posted it with no experience with which to arrive at that conclusion.




    And here we see the true underlying motive for your posts. Fine lets look at the current direction of the game as the new way, forsaking existing power/core gamers (actively forcing them out) and trying to cultivate more casuals and less dedicated player base:

    So far we have plummeting player activity levels, massive peaks and troughs at and between updates, and a game that feels like it's dieing fast. Imagine that, less dedicated gamers log in less and for shorter amounts of time. They are also leess able to hack the complicated gameplay and high skill ceiling of a WASD + Mouselook based game, they are used to point and click mouse movement.

    Now lets examine how a casual and less dedicated gamer player base is going to fair on the long term:

    What we already have observed:
    "The enhancement system is confusing" = EP
    "Undead are hard" = ghostbase
    "named gear and raid items are hard to get" = the new loot paradigm is random loot
    "random loot is hard to tell whats better or not" = simplified spreadsheet random loot

    By logical extension:
    But oh wait Constructs are also Hard!
    Elementals are hard, I don't like all this switching to cold!
    Reavers are hard!
    Reavers that look like fire reavers but are immune to cold damage are REALLY REALLY hard!
    Oh man I can't do any damage at all to this pitfiend
    Man this quest is way too hard because I don't/can't/wont use mouselook
    I don't like WASD movement it's too hard
    I'm in Amrath and my character can barely hit on a 17
    Wow Shroud is hard, and the loot is too confusing
    Everyone only wants to run on Elite or EH can we change that?
    I don't like "BYOH"
    I don't want to "know it" that's not fair I should be allowed in every LFM
    I can only play 3 hours a week, I want a "catchup system" like other MMO's have that allow me to earn the same XP in 3 hours as someone who plays 5 hours a day.
    LOTRO has regenerating HP's and MANA and you can't really ever die...

    Enjoy...
    Sorry but the raid scene was never active in DDO, outside of tempest spine, raids with pre reqs have always been PITAs to fill, and usually ended up with the same faces every run. According to stuff Ive seen devs say on these very forums over the years the raid gamer pop of DDO is about as large as its forum active pop. Maybe 5% of the total player base was running raids or the old epics. TRing became the main game for many during that time, or just a casual altaholic character builder to those who had no taste for the extra XP req to reach cap.

    People who want to raid, and do so seriously wont ever stick with DDO while titans in Raid Gaming like WoW exists. Trying to be David against Goliath is not a smart business approach though it makes for great legends.

  12. #232
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    yet you cant see how making all content open to all lvl ranges via adapting the challenge systems slider would expand the game ? There is NEVER a reason for a dev team to cater to the xp a min crowed. Not EVER!
    Yes there is, we're the good players.

  13. #233
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Sorry but Raiding is not end game, running content for only gaining loot that has no meaning because your already in the highest lvl content already. We know the game will cap at 30, with that limit now stated we can assume content for that lvl will be the limit on powerful items we gain. The fact is its only ED and their ability that is worth playing the game to develop at this point. Its new ED and more twists slots that will keep players wanting to play to develop those abilities further.

    However Raids need to be seen as the flaw they always where because simply put if you see yourself as a hard core raid gamer you are on the WRONG game period. Go back to WoW but likely your here and not there not due to not liking that game but actually being a wowtard, someone who likes what wow does, but cant handle wow so goes to another smaller game and try to turn it into wowlite.

    The one thing WoW absolutely does best is raids, some other MMO try to and come close, all of them are the logical choices for hard core raiders, one of the most toxic part of DDOs community, and nothing about DDO would be hurt by those players finally letting go and moving on.

    No what DDO needs to do to make replaying it as a new alt or a TR is open up all content to all lvl ranges, this could be done simply by adapting the mechanics of challenges to all content, making no content for specific lvl ranges at all. Like wise named loot could have varied set effects and additional augment slots added based on the lvl of the content being set.

    Imagine if every alt, every life, you could pick what content you found most enjoyable in DDO whenever you wanted, at any lvl and run it for xp and loot. If no longer was content as end game themed as the vale was forced upon us in the mid teens and lvl 20+ content included wolves and other out of place elements for an adventurer looking to see otherworldly things could be chosen to be run at a lvl range that made it feel appropriate. Imagine how it would let us be able to govern and add to our individual play experiences.

    For example there are many quests in house K for example that feel often like they should be higher lvl simply based on the context of what we are doing, likewise there are many quests in the realms for example that to me feel like they would be far more applicable from a personal story experience to be run at much earlier levels.

    For a simple way to spell it out, if it has wolves and wild life that could in no sane way challenges a mighty warrior or well versed master of magic, id personally always try to run such content prior to lvl 10, and content that involved things like sentient undead, evil casters, and outsiders for my lvl 10-20 phase of playing.

    Even parts of Korthos like its final adventure to break the crystal while the dragon fights the mindflayer could become a worthy high lvl adventure in such a system.
    So you accuse people who like raids of being powergamers who only run for loot, and tell us they are trying to turn DDO into WOW, but then you turn around and marvel at games where you can run in any zone at any level and the game just scales to your currentl level. If they are trying to turn it into WOW, youre trying to turn it into a Perfect World clone MMO. Go back to WOW? Go back to WotI.

    Raids are most often the climax of the storyline in an entire plot driven series. You like stories, yet advocate not having raids? Direct contradiction.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #234
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Sorry but the raid scene was never active in DDO, outside of tempest spine, raids with pre reqs have always been PITAs to fill, and usually ended up with the same faces every run. According to stuff Ive seen devs say on these very forums over the years the raid gamer pop of DDO is about as large as its forum active pop. Maybe 5% of the total player base was running raids or the old epics. TRing became the main game for many during that time, or just a casual altaholic character builder to those who had no taste for the extra XP req to reach cap.

    People who want to raid, and do so seriously wont ever stick with DDO while titans in Raid Gaming like WoW exists. Trying to be David against Goliath is not a smart business approach though it makes for great legends.
    You really don't know anything do you?

    Raids were a huge part of this game up until MoTU destroyed the value of the loot.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    They (if I am getting the right "they") are asking for a meaningful, fun endgame again. The endgame that was present in the past was not fun for everyone. For those it was not fun for, they TR'd or worked on alts. For those it was fun for, they (we) enjoyed it. The gears have shifted by Turbine Development making endgame fun and meaningful for those that like to play their capped charactes a non priority. Which is sad, to ignore any chunk of your playerbase, and is just poor business.
    Not at all when taht section of the playerbase isa toxic cancer that creates reasons for new players to just walk away rather then get involved which is what the closed minded xenophobic elitist rep of DDO has been for so many years its not almost impossible to convince anyone who has heard those old horror stories to come check out the game.

  16. #236
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Not at all when taht section of the playerbase isa toxic cancer that creates reasons for new players to just walk away rather then get involved which is what the closed minded xenophobic elitist rep of DDO has been for so many years its not almost impossible to convince anyone who has heard those old horror stories to come check out the game.
    Show me on the doll where the bad power-gamer touched you.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You really don't know anything do you?

    Raids were a huge part of this game up until MoTU destroyed the value of the loot.
    Yeah... but they were'nt so much accessible to noobs that people didn't feel like carrying. They had to rely on pugging only. Now guess what kind of player you're arguing with?
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    TRing was popular long before MOTU because epics were endgame. Running quests for more character power -vs- running quests for more character power.

    LOB was also [1.5]x weapons at the time, not changed to the [2] multiplier until much later - and those weapons were a baby step above shroud. People with specific builds farmed it - 2x khopesh who wanted stun +10 on a slash weapon, monks for wraps, tanks and divines for shields, and artys for tovens hammer. Lightning2 khopesh and eSOS builds were still endgame melee builds for 2wf and 2hf respectively.

    When TOD/shroud was endgame = the best era of DDO. Even many casual players liked that era, because shroud runs werent just for the elite gamers, and each run produced more ingredients which got them closer to their goal. We had timers back then that could not be paid to circumvent so after doing our shroud runs, the endgamers quested like everyone else did, and TR'd like everyone else did.
    not at all true during the era of GS being end all be all everyone ran their stable of toons only on the raids and just didnt log in when on timer, hence one of the reasons for raid timers as people exist in DDO who still play taht way and will buy those timer resets because that is the only content they will play. Its just who they are in DDO after all these years.

    And no casuals rarely got into shrouds most shrouds have always been very very intolerant of first timers. Hence the era where most first timers simply kept their mouth shut tried to follow along without asking questions, end up dieing, being called apiker, and quit the game feeling disgusted and frustrated.

  19. #239
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    yet you cant see how making all content open to all lvl ranges via adapting the challenge systems slider would expand the game ? There is NEVER a reason for a dev team to cater to the xp a min crowed. Not EVER!
    Business wise, there is quite a bit of reason to cater to the folks who enjoy xp per minute gaming. I find it ironic that in the p2w discussions, many of the same people who were justifying higher Xp tomes, Xp stones that allow skipping levels 8-18, as well as any other pay to not play mechanism, were all saying it was needed in order for Turbine to generate revenue to keep the lights on and be profitable, and here the\ same people are in these new endgame discussions telling us DDO doesnt need those players, their money, or their business.

    And then after that flippy floppy, they try and cultivate the myth that a game who was able to cater to many different playstyles should drop the endgamers and cater more to the casual players. Its not good enough that the gme has been crucibled to the point where a single celled organism can declare itself the king of stormreach, now they tell Turbine to cast away the old veteran players altogether in order to cater to the one demographic group they belong to, demonstrating a severe lack of business sense the entire time doing so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #240
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Yeah... but they were'nt so much accessible to noobs that people didn't feel like carrying. They had to rely on pugging only. Now guess what kind of player you're arguing with?
    Not true, SOME raids were a little exclusionary. Shroud, VOD, reaver, DQ? no way. ToD not really. LOB and MA were until U14.

    And I'm not arguing I'm lecturing. Arguing would imply that what I'm stating is up for debate.

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