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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You're not looking hard enough, there are people actually arguing that Turbine's only end-game should be the hamster wheel that is TR.
    Can you link me some posts where people are saying no turbine...don't add any more high level content.

  2. #202
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I was replying to your extreme logic (saying TRing is just grinding 15 quests over and over). Sounds like we have a miscommunication here where you were responding to someone else's extreme position with one of your own, and I thought you were being serious.
    And I was using that as a comparison to the extreme logic suggesting people grind the same few raids and do nothing else. This is another one of those things I see alot more of on the forums than I ever do in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I'd be perfectly happy if Turbine would make an effort to make both camps happy. I am definitely looking forward to epic TR, but I wouldn't mind a few raids at end-game as well.
    Theryve been able to cater to both camps for a while now. No reason to stop and sacrifice one for the other.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #203
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Can you link me some posts where people are saying no turbine...don't add any more high level content.
    There are a few now saying that not only should Turbine stop focusing on raiding, that all MMOs already have stopped focusing on raiding, which is far from the truth. There are a few MMOs now which do not have real raids and their forums are loaded with feedback about how the game needs more raids and other things to do at cap.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #204
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do think improving the harder difficulty levels and providing incentives to running content at all character levels on these difficulties would enhance the DDO experience for players like me. The thing is Turbine has been going the other way i.e. making content easier for everything but the end game. Loot at the low levels is just silly now. I buy a couple of things off the ah and then run a low level quest and in the chests is just some silly overpowered gear and the enhancement system has upped the power on all characters basically. It is a snoozefest. They have been consistantly making low, mid, and epics that are non epic elte end game leveling easier. With scaling and a multitude of other things. Epic hard is a snoozefest despite countless players arguing that they needed to up the challenge on that difficulty, but whatever.

    Epic elite end game is really all we got for challenge in DDO. The problem is they are taking that away as well. Epic elite end game also has a function of providing players something to shoot for that should not be neglected.

    The incentive needs to be XP at this point. Loot smoot, random stuff is better than 90% of the named items at this point since the new items people got control.

    The hunt for XP is now the end-game. Whether it's TR, epic-TR, etc . . . it's a dumb-design but it is what it is.

    The more I think about it the more I truely believe an EE Saga bonus should be 1 million XP. The best part about it is you can switch to an off-destiny before taking the reward so while question in a strong one that ED XP isn't wasted.

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Make an EE Saga reward 1 million XP (said in a Dr. Evil voice of course).

    Yes, I'm serious. This might make it tolerable.

    The more I think about this the more brilliant it is.
    Like if you do all the Epic quest once? Why not. Something.

  6. #206
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Us casuals never do "finish" a character. There's always more to do.. The devs are able to keep up with us no problem. But even if we could get a character to max level with max EDs and the best gear possible. We'd roll up a different character.
    Right now leveling is easy and gearing is easy since most of the good gear now can be had from random chests, so even casual players are getting to that point where they have to make a decision to TR or raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Powergamers expect too much. You cannot play a game 6-10 hours a day for years and expect not to get bored. Playing 2 hours a day with 3 main characters seems to work really well for me... I've never bored, and there's always more stuff for me to do. And sometimes I take breaks when a new single-player comes out, so I'm gone for a week.
    Powergamers expect something different than casual gamers, but its far from being too much. Expecting a raid to come with the expansion is not too much to expect. This last expansion came with LESS QUESTS than the previous expansion, and NO RAID - so it is not just the powergamers who want a raid who are getting hosed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Ha! Who cares? We don't need any of that stuff. I don't want the powergamers to leave. I'd like to see a few raids and maybe a seal/shard/scroll equivalent grind for them. Something to keep them busy. But they sure are negative nellies. It wouldn't kill this game if some or all of them left. (The people who play 4 hours a day would just step up and become the new "elite" anyway)..
    From a business perspective, youre dead wrong here, because theres no reason to jettison customers from any demographic they have already demonstrated they can cater to. Turbines ASAH cant work if theres no one to farm the rare gear in it - which is the stuff people will pony up real dollars to get. The casual gamers have been complaining for years that the game is too hard, and those wiki articles and guides help mitigate any difficulty of starting playing a new game. You may not personally think they are needed, but anyone who analyzes the situation objectively understands they have a much bigger impact that cant simply be waved away and declared expendible.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #207
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Powergamers expect something different than casual gamers, but its far from being too much. Expecting a raid to come with the expansion is not too much to expect. This last expansion came with LESS QUESTS than the previous expansion, and NO RAID - so it is not just the powergamers who want a raid who are getting hosed here.
    Chai - there is nothing Turbine can do that is wrong in his mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    From a business perspective, youre dead wrong here, because theres no reason to jettison customers from any demographic they have already demonstrated they can cater to. Turbines ASAH cant work if theres no one to farm the rare gear in it - which is the stuff people will pony up real dollars to get. The casual gamers have been complaining for years that the game is too hard, and those wiki articles and guides help mitigate any difficulty of starting playing a new game. You may not personally think they are needed, but anyone who analyzes the situation objectively understands they have a much bigger impact that cant simply be waved away and declared expendible.
    Turbine can directly seed the ASAH. I don't think they are because if they were it'd be better stocked.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    From a business perspective, youre dead wrong here, because theres no reason to jettison customers from any demographic they have already demonstrated they can cater to.
    Jettison? No. Prioritize? Mandatory. This is not a huge company with large amounts of development resources (or we wouldn't have year-old exploits or massive game-breaking bugs that hang around for weeks). They have to decide on a style and stick with it.

    Given that there are already tons of raid-oriented games out there, and the fact that this game's structure makes it ill-suited to a heavy raid emphasis, AND the fact that a large percentage of players here have real lives, it doesn't make sense for them to focus all their attention on "endgame". They cannot compete with those games, nor should they try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If you prefer the heroic game (and there's nothing wrong with that, in many ways the heroic game is better) you're not gonna like epic TR.
    We don't even know how it's going to work, so I'd say that's premature.

    I play heroic and epic levels. I play all the content, which is a big part of not getting bored.

  9. #209
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Shining a light on people is infractable (I speak from experience). You'll have to look harder yourself.

    And come on, casuals won't Epic TR more than once. There's a lot of appeal to the casual play style. 1-and-done TRing is fun, but for the people who now take 3-4 months to TR a toon heroically we're looking at 6-8 months getting from 1-28 at that pace. If you prefer the heroic game (and there's nothing wrong with that, in many ways the heroic game is better) you're not gonna like epic TR.
    Im not all that certain that casuals wouldnt epic tr more than once. After all, the only reason i dont play my TRs to 28 is that i see little to be gained doing so. IF the epic TR proves useful, i might start playing my toons routinely to 28 before TRing them.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    We don't even know how it's going to work, so I'd say that's premature.

    I play heroic and epic levels. I play all the content, which is a big part of not getting bored.
    The game mechanics aren't changing. if you currently like heroic better nothing is changing regarding that.

    Regarding not getting bored getting to 28 . . . you've got to be kidding me. 20-25 was never bad, there was enough XP that you'd barely need to repeat anything. 25-28 is painful.

  11. #211
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Im not all that certain that casuals wouldnt epic tr more than once. After all, the only reason i dont play my TRs to 28 is that i see little to be gained doing so. IF the epic TR proves useful, i might start playing my toons routinely to 28 before TRing them.
    A few months back somebody almost got crucified on the forums for saying a casual player takes 4 weeks to TR. Apparently it takes them 3-4 months to TR.

    At that same pace you're looking at 6-8 months to get 1-28.

    Do you really believe this game has 16 months of life left in it for said casual player to ETR twice?

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    At that same pace you're looking at 6-8 months to get 1-28.
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do you really believe this game has 16 months of life left in it for said casual player to ETR twice?
    Why does it matter?

    See, again, you're stuck in a "need to get somewhere" mindset. If I have fun playing for those 16 months, then it was worth it.

    The problem is that too many people view MMOs as something where "accomplishment" is the primary objective. I know -- I used to fall into that trap myself.

    Did you know that someday you're going to die and every single thing you did will then cease to matter to you? Will that mean none of it had any value?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    ETA: I don't see people who like the idea of epic TR saying "don't make an endgame". I DO see people who like endgame saying "don't make epic TR".
    I wish there was actually a good end game, but all a lot of people seem to view end game are is a few new raids and quests with some best in slot gear to go farm. My whole problem with that as end game is the same thing as the old epic 20 gear when 20 was cap. I run a few epics, then I realize, I can already run the hardest content, why do I need the gear out of them? Unless I'm just running them for fun I'm just farming for stuff that is useless to me, I might as well just go tr and enjoy all the content rather then epic content only.

    If they want to actually make end game where people have more reason to actually try to get all the best stuff rather then just tr again, a few things that might make me think about it...

    1. Work on pvp a bit. Might actually motivate people to get the best of the best since you'd be fighting other people on occasion that have it. I don't even care if you don't get anything out of it other then fun. I've seen people in the brawl pits every day since I began playing several years ago, it doesn't have to be something people are forced to do, and its not like its something people aren't interested in.
    2. PvP quests. Not necesarily direct player vs player combat, but quests that put two parties into the same instance and they compete to finish a goal first, where things one party does impact the environment on the other party. This way you'd be playing against other thinking people and not just mindlessly roflstomping the same stupid AI repeatedly, and bothering to acquire the best gear possible might make a difference if your team can do something a little more quickly or efficiently.
    3. Some completely randomized dungeons. No more learning content and then zerging it like nothing and using the same tricks every time with pretty much 100% win rate. Its got to be the lamest thing ever when you see an aoe spell cast then a few seconds later mobs spawn in to it. It can't be that hard to create a randomly generated dungeon that is different every time you go in. Diablo did it almost 20 years ago. You won't know whats in there for mobs, where the end point is, where any chests or traps are, you'd have to just go in and explore and try to survive...just like the old school dnd where you always had different dungeons to go into. There are so many existing various mobs and land scapes that could be worked into this system it would be amazing. Maybe if you clear a dungeon you can open one level higher the next time you go in, I wouldn't even care if there was no new loot out of this, I'd enjoy it the same I enjoy a new quest the first few times I play it even if I know going in to it there isn't any gear I need out of it.

    I want things to do just for fun when I'm at end game, I'm not falling for the illusion that shifting the balance of end game from tr'ing to gear farming for gear at cap is going to somehow make end game awesome.

  14. #214
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    So?

    Why does it matter?
    It matters because I'm right and you're wrong. This was a factual thing, I'm stating a casual player won't do this more than 1-2 times because of how long it'll take. Also stating it WILL be boring because of the need to repeat content getting to 28.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Did you know that someday you're going to die and every single thing you did will then cease to matter to you? Will that mean none of it had any value?
    Nonsense. Trolls are immortal.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There are a few now saying that not only should Turbine stop focusing on raiding, that all MMOs already have stopped focusing on raiding, which is far from the truth. There are a few MMOs now which do not have real raids and their forums are loaded with feedback about how the game needs more raids and other things to do at cap.
    That's saying we want things to do at high levels other then raids because we don't like raids, that's not saying don't add any high level content.

  16. #216
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    Sorry but Raiding is not end game, running content for only gaining loot that has no meaning because your already in the highest lvl content already. We know the game will cap at 30, with that limit now stated we can assume content for that lvl will be the limit on powerful items we gain. The fact is its only ED and their ability that is worth playing the game to develop at this point. Its new ED and more twists slots that will keep players wanting to play to develop those abilities further.

    However Raids need to be seen as the flaw they always where because simply put if you see yourself as a hard core raid gamer you are on the WRONG game period. Go back to WoW but likely your here and not there not due to not liking that game but actually being a wowtard, someone who likes what wow does, but cant handle wow so goes to another smaller game and try to turn it into wowlite.

    The one thing WoW absolutely does best is raids, some other MMO try to and come close, all of them are the logical choices for hard core raiders, one of the most toxic part of DDOs community, and nothing about DDO would be hurt by those players finally letting go and moving on.

    No what DDO needs to do to make replaying it as a new alt or a TR is open up all content to all lvl ranges, this could be done simply by adapting the mechanics of challenges to all content, making no content for specific lvl ranges at all. Like wise named loot could have varied set effects and additional augment slots added based on the lvl of the content being set.

    Imagine if every alt, every life, you could pick what content you found most enjoyable in DDO whenever you wanted, at any lvl and run it for xp and loot. If no longer was content as end game themed as the vale was forced upon us in the mid teens and lvl 20+ content included wolves and other out of place elements for an adventurer looking to see otherworldly things could be chosen to be run at a lvl range that made it feel appropriate. Imagine how it would let us be able to govern and add to our individual play experiences.

    For example there are many quests in house K for example that feel often like they should be higher lvl simply based on the context of what we are doing, likewise there are many quests in the realms for example that to me feel like they would be far more applicable from a personal story experience to be run at much earlier levels.

    For a simple way to spell it out, if it has wolves and wild life that could in no sane way challenges a mighty warrior or well versed master of magic, id personally always try to run such content prior to lvl 10, and content that involved things like sentient undead, evil casters, and outsiders for my lvl 10-20 phase of playing.

    Even parts of Korthos like its final adventure to break the crystal while the dragon fights the mindflayer could become a worthy high lvl adventure in such a system.

  17. #217
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Jettison? No. Prioritize? Mandatory. This is not a huge company with large amounts of development resources (or we wouldn't have year-old exploits or massive game-breaking bugs that hang around for weeks). They have to decide on a style and stick with it.
    Nope, they dont, because they clearly demonstreated they can cater to the raid crowd for 7 years, and keep the people who want to quest happy as well, so there is no reason or excuse to not keep doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Given that there are already tons of raid-oriented games out there, and the fact that this game's structure makes it ill-suited to a heavy raid emphasis, AND the fact that a large percentage of players here have real lives, it doesn't make sense for them to focus all their attention on "endgame". They cannot compete with those games, nor should they try.
    No one is asking them to. Its just not too much to expect to get one raid in an expansion, especially when that expansion raised the level cap - which is where endgame happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    We don't even know how it's going to work, so I'd say that's premature.

    I play heroic and epic levels. I play all the content, which is a big part of not getting bored.
    I also play all the content and advocate doing so by other folks. In fact, many of the same people who challenged my claim that one can TR a 3rd+ life toon and never play the same content twice, are here now telling us how they play all the content and thats how they enjoy playing the game in a non repetitive fashion. Go figure.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    I run a few epics, then I realize, I can already run the hardest content, why do I need the gear out of them?
    Ding ding! We have a winner.

    That's pretty much it.

    Not that I have any interest in PvP, mind you. If I want to be abused by a juvenile, I have them at home.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It matters because I'm right and you're wrong. This was a factual thing, I'm stating a casual player won't do this more than 1-2 times because of how long it'll take. Also stating it WILL be boring because of the need to repeat content getting to 28.
    "Factual"? Insert Inigo Montoya quote here.

    Sorry, you don't seem to have much grasp on what is or isn't boring, or why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense. Trolls are immortal.
    Ah. I best skip running VON3 then, that pre-quest would be a killer.

  19. #219
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Turbine can directly seed the ASAH. I don't think they are because if they were it'd be better stocked.
    Ive been talking about this possibly happening for a while now. It wouldnt be too hard to datamine what people are buying the most of, and fill in the blanks. 40% sync? pffft, 100% sync.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Imagine if every alt, every life, you could pick what content you found most enjoyable in DDO whenever you wanted, at any lvl and run it for xp and loot. If no longer was content as end game themed as the vale was forced upon us in the mid teens and lvl 20+ content included wolves and other out of place elements for an adventurer looking to see otherworldly things could be chosen to be run at a lvl range that made it feel appropriate. Imagine how it would let us be able to govern and add to our individual play experiences.
    That sure would be the worse move ever marketting wise. All those quests we took so much time to design, just skip them, np.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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