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  1. #181
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Well, id like to take your recommendation, comsidering the experience you have accumulated playing them, but i find them rather insipid. But everybody to their own, right?
    Helly Kitty and Farmville both have the same end-game that half the people in this thread envision as ideal so why not?

  2. #182
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    See, all I have to do to get people to see how it actually is
    I was replying to your extreme logic (saying TRing is just grinding 15 quests over and over). Sounds like we have a miscommunication here where you were responding to someone else's extreme position with one of your own, and I thought you were being serious.

    I'd be perfectly happy if Turbine would make an effort to make both camps happy. I am definitely looking forward to epic TR, but I wouldn't mind a few raids at end-game as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #183
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not about having endgame or not, as every game has endgame. Its a matter of what that endgame entails. What do you do when your character gets to the highest level possible and has most of the best gear possible?
    Us casuals never do "finish" a character. There's always more to do.. The devs are able to keep up with us no problem. But even if we could get a character to max level with max EDs and the best gear possible. We'd roll up a different character.

    Powergamers expect too much. You cannot play a game 6-10 hours a day for years and expect not to get bored. Playing 2 hours a day with 3 main characters seems to work really well for me... I've never bored, and there's always more stuff for me to do. And sometimes I take breaks when a new single-player comes out, so I'm gone for a week.

    Your view on power gamers leaving having no impact is distorted as well. Who farms those rare items the casual players buy on the ASAH? Other casuals? Nope. Who writes the guides for quests and explorer zones days after they are released? Other casuals? Nope.
    Ha! Who cares? We don't need any of that stuff. I don't want the powergamers to leave. I'd like to see a few raids and maybe a seal/shard/scroll equivalent grind for them. Something to keep them busy. But they sure are negative nellies. It wouldn't kill this game if some or all of them left. (The people who play 4 hours a day would just step up and become the new "elite" anyway)..
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I have no idea how the epic TR system is going to work, and from what little I've read, I don't think anything is set in stone yet, so I'll reserve judgment on the whole thing until I have more information.

    The one major request I have, and this is legitimately going to make or break it for me, is that epic tr can (as an option) be a separate thing from heroic tr. In other words, I want there to be an option to go from 28 back to 20 for the purpose of earning only an epic past life feat. I have all the heroic past lives I want on some characters. If I have to do a 1-20 grind that yields nothing substantial just to have the option of going from 20-28 after that for an epic past life feat, it wouldn't be worth doing. In other words, if getting an epic past life feat ends up being a 1-28 grind, it is going to punish people who have already ground out the heroic past life feats they want.

    If this is what they are proposing to do, then great. I look forward to hearing about the feats and deciding if it's for me.
    As I understand it, that's the design. Heroic TR will be completely separate from Epic TR. That's one of the reasons why the scrapped the whole blowing away all destinies they first envisioned. Now it'll be it's own 20-28 system. And I doubt that will change 'because that would probably break the mechanics.

    I want to see how the hamster wheel looks like tho; are they going to be able to fool me with a painting of the open skies in front of me or am I going to stare into a brick wall. Because destiny leveling have me staring into a brick wall and I'm just getting burnt out.

  5. #185
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Having gotten 3 toons to 28 and 1 to 27 so far . . . I think the people in the "epic TR" camp with do this a few times and then hate it as there just isn't enough epic XP to get to 28 without repeating the hell out of content.

    Heropic TR doesn't require the repetition of much content, epic is going to be a painful grind unless you whip out your wallet.

    I see Epic Leveling Stone in the "Mornekenian's Disjuncted box" or something.

  6. #186
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Or, if you don't want to do something different, at least stop making blanket statements about how TRing is a "hamster wheel" or that there's no difference in variety comparing 200 quests to a handful. Most of the problem you are seeing isn't with the TRing mechanism, it's with your "I'm in a big rush to get nowhere" approach to playing.
    My favorite absolutely serious quote from the OP of this thread about 3-4 years back was about running the Shroud as fast as possible. He'd run it 10 times a day, even though he already had all the loot he could ever want from it.

    "Why is it important to run it so fast?" I asked.

    He said, "Every second wasted running Shroud is a second I could be using to run another Shroud".

    LOL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  7. #187
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Powergamers expect too much. You cannot play a game 6-10 hours a day for years and expect not to get bored. Playing 2 hours a day with 3 main characters seems to work really well for me... I've never bored, and there's always more stuff for me to do. And sometimes I take breaks when a new single-player comes out, so I'm gone for a week.
    So the best solution . . . is to not play the game? Seriously?

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its not about having endgame or not, as every game has endgame. Its a matter of what that endgame entails. What do you do when your character gets to the highest level possible and has most of the best gear possible?

    Your view on power gamers leaving having no impact is distorted as well. Who farms those rare items the casual players buy on the ASAH? Other casuals? Nope. Who writes the guides for quests and explorer zones days after they are released? Other casuals? Nope.



    EQN will have an endgame. It may not be the craziness EQ1s endgame was time consumption wise, but it will exist.
    This

    It's possible to have an end game for people who want to see 'the end of a journey' and pair it with a system that allow people to start again, try something new and gain incremental power (TRing). I think Turbine just need to start closing the loops on some stories like they did with FoT and stop diluting the pool with the idea that flavorless loot makes people happy. Goals are good - just add 3-4 paths to whatever tingle them and they'll be glad to run in the hamster wheel until it breaks off the hinges.

  9. #189
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Is that how you do it?


    If you repeat the same stuff over and over, week after week, and then complain about it, you're a grade A moron. No ifs, ands, or buts.
    Close to the definition of insanity! Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Having gotten 3 toons to 28 and 1 to 27 so far . . . I think the people in the "epic TR" camp with do this a few times and then hate it as there just isn't enough epic XP to get to 28 without repeating the hell out of content.

    Heropic TR doesn't require the repetition of much content, epic is going to be a painful grind unless you whip out your wallet.

    I see Epic Leveling Stone in the "Mornekenian's Disjuncted box" or something.
    Lets hope they up the XP or lower the xp requirement from 26-28 because you're absolutely right. And I'm not sure the wonky way sagas is setup (with a hopscotch of some quests) will be able to break the human instinct to take the quickest path to the end (especially if we're talking about mass repeat).

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So the best solution . . . is to not play the game? Seriously?
    At some point the game will be gone and all the DDO accomplishments soon forgotten. The "loot" from a balanced life will still be there. I don't think he said the best solution is to "not play the game",but I think there are more people that prefer to play the game in moderation due to a busy life including the devs based on their own posts.

    I would think the casual players represent the largest share of DDO revenue.
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    "Why is it important to run it so fast?" I asked.

    He said, "Every second wasted running Shroud is a second I could be using to run another Shroud".

    LOL.
    I think it's easy to lose perspective like this.

    And not just in games, also in real life.

    It's funny because sometimes when I find myself talking about how the point is not just to get somewhere but to enjoy it, I use that to remind myself to do the same in reality as well.

    ETA: I don't see people who like the idea of epic TR saying "don't make an endgame". I DO see people who like endgame saying "don't make epic TR".

  13. #193
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Lets hope they up the XP or lower the xp requirement from 26-28 because you're absolutely right. And I'm not sure the wonky way sagas is setup (with a hopscotch of some quests) will be able to break the human instinct to take the quickest path to the end (especially if we're talking about mass repeat).
    Make an EE Saga reward 1 million XP (said in a Dr. Evil voice of course).

    Yes, I'm serious. This might make it tolerable.

    The more I think about this the more brilliant it is.

  14. #194
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    ETA: I don't see people who like the idea of epic TR saying "don't make an endgame". I DO see people who like endgame saying "don't make epic TR".
    You're not looking hard enough, there are people actually arguing that Turbine's only end-game should be the hamster wheel that is TR.

  15. #195
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Helly Kitty and Farmville both have the same end-game that half the people in this thread envision as ideal so why not?
    So THATS where you have learned about endgame.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  16. #196
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    With the advantage of having different difficulty settings for all content in DDO, there could be some kind of "end game" (as in challenging stuff) at every single level. Since the game relies alot on TRing, this would make much more sense than just a couple top level quests and raids which actually aren't so much challenging atm. Just have to create that one difficulty and adjust rewards accordingly.

    Now i'm not saying there shouldn't be much stuff to do at top level since I understand alot of players like to stay there and don't like TRing at all. But yeah... since we get to replay everything again and again (TR or alts), why not push toward that direction?

    On TR: Epic True TR would just be another option (surely cheaper than 2 different Hearts in a row) they could offer on top of just Epic TR if you wish to go back to level 1.
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  17. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Your view on power gamers leaving having no impact is distorted as well. Who farms those rare items the casual players buy on the ASAH? Other casuals? Nope. Who writes the guides for quests and explorer zones days after they are released? Other casuals? Nope.
    It was once not possible to buy anything from the ASAH. If that again becomes a reality, Turbine will put something else in its place and we casuals won't really mind.

    As far as quest guides and whatnot are concerned, surely a person so concerned with the integrity of the game would welcome their demise. If a DM ever caught a player looking over a quest module or source notes prior to gaming, that player would be summarily dismissed from the game. Isn't that part of your basic argument; that the game needs to preserve it's PnP roots to remain relevant?

    Thus far Turbine has used the crutch of player-supported resources as an excuse to either not update their own, eliminate the existing ones or simply never create any in the first place. Perhaps a hue and cry from the majority over a lack resources might prompt them to release a few. Would that not support the demands for accountability you're always going on about? It would seem to me the potential good that would come from a loss of power gamers far outweighs any downside.
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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You're not looking hard enough, there are people actually arguing that Turbine's only end-game should be the hamster wheel that is TR.
    Yeah, where would that be? If it's so common, it shouldn't be difficult to find examples, right?

    Meanwhile we have this thread once again claiming that "endgame" is all that matters, and we'll probably have another next week.

    What you and others don't seem to grasp is that part of casual gaming is flexibility. If they put in epic TR, I'll probably use it; if they don't, no big deal. If they put in more raids, I'll play them from time to time; if not, no big deal. Same with classes, races, gear and so forth. I care about having fun, and it doesn't matter how that happens.

    It's actually the powergaming "must get to the nursing home as fast as possible!" types who scream any time any effort is spent developing anything they don't like.

    I'm never on a hamster wheel because I refuse to climb on; you are always on a hamster wheel because you refuse to jump off. That's all there is to it. I've seen you use the computing industry phrase "problem between chair and keyboard" a couple of times -- well, it applies here too.

  19. #199
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Yeah, where would that be? If it's so common, it shouldn't be difficult to find examples, right?
    Shining a light on people is infractable (I speak from experience). You'll have to look harder yourself.

    And come on, casuals won't Epic TR more than once. There's a lot of appeal to the casual play style. 1-and-done TRing is fun, but for the people who now take 3-4 months to TR a toon heroically we're looking at 6-8 months getting from 1-28 at that pace. If you prefer the heroic game (and there's nothing wrong with that, in many ways the heroic game is better) you're not gonna like epic TR.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-20-2013 at 09:17 AM.

  20. #200
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    With the advantage of having different difficulty settings for all content in DDO, there could be some kind of "end game" (as in challenging stuff) at every single level. Since the game relies alot on TRing, this would make much more sense than just a couple top level quests and raids which actually aren't so much challenging atm. Just have to create that one difficulty and adjust rewards accordingly.

    Now i'm not saying there shouldn't be much stuff to do at top level since I understand alot of players like to stay there and don't like TRing at all. But yeah... since we get to replay everything again and again (TR or alts), why not push toward that direction?

    On TR: Epic True TR would just be another option (surely cheaper than 2 different Hearts in a row) they could offer on top of just Epic TR if you wish to go back to level 1.
    I do think improving the harder difficulty levels and providing incentives to running content at all character levels on these difficulties would enhance the DDO experience for players like me. The thing is Turbine has been going the other way i.e. making content easier for everything but the end game. Loot at the low levels is just silly now. I buy a couple of things off the ah and then run a low level quest and in the chests is just some silly overpowered gear and the enhancement system has upped the power on all characters basically. It is a snoozefest. They have been consistantly making low, mid, and epics that are non epic elte end game leveling easier. With scaling and a multitude of other things. Epic hard is a snoozefest despite countless players arguing that they needed to up the challenge on that difficulty, but whatever.

    Epic elite end game is really all we got for challenge in DDO. The problem is they are taking that away as well. Epic elite end game also has a function of providing players something to shoot for that should not be neglected.
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