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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You have a strange view of history. Very few groups were able to beat epic elite LOB for the first few months it was out. Even Epic Hard Lob was no cakewalk for pugs.
    There was no epic hardormal or elite when LoB came out. It was heroic normal, hard, elite and epic. I think it wa u14 when the changes to epics were made.

  2. #162
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I'm saying NO to Epic True Reincarnation because no such system has been proposed. There is no such thing.

    Epic Reincarnation on the other hand, could have some merit, but should not be mutually exclusive with Epic endgame.
    Always with the nit picking

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  3. #163
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    it's a simple matter of being clear with what you're talking about. Adding the 'true' in there can and has confused people, thinking the reinc takes one back to Lvl 1, which it does not. It's called Epic Reinc, how hard is it to get right? If that's picking nits then fine... stop waving your lice around.

  4. #164
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I have no idea how the epic TR system is going to work, and from what little I've read, I don't think anything is set in stone yet, so I'll reserve judgment on the whole thing until I have more information.

    The one major request I have, and this is legitimately going to make or break it for me, is that epic tr can (as an option) be a separate thing from heroic tr. In other words, I want there to be an option to go from 28 back to 20 for the purpose of earning only an epic past life feat. I have all the heroic past lives I want on some characters. If I have to do a 1-20 grind that yields nothing substantial just to have the option of going from 20-28 after that for an epic past life feat, it wouldn't be worth doing. In other words, if getting an epic past life feat ends up being a 1-28 grind, it is going to punish people who have already ground out the heroic past life feats they want.

    If this is what they are proposing to do, then great. I look forward to hearing about the feats and deciding if it's for me.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 09-20-2013 at 03:39 AM.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense. If real Epic LOB was getting beaten on a regular basis by more than 5% of a server I'd be surprised.

    My anecdote is stronger than your since it came from me, it's the privilege of being teh_troll.
    Did it with my guilds on Ghallanda and Khyber all the time as well as with pugs on both.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    If it is, that's only because you make it so. It's not for me. Each life is a new build and I mix them up so there's a lot of contrast in play style and gear. The characters evolve more quickly at heroic levels, there's lots of variety in enhancements to choose from, and so forth.

    Of course to enjoy this, you have to actually run the quests, rather than run past the quests.
    Well said would +1 but for some reason can't from work

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    LOL Let's see if I can get the quotes right!



    Depends. I know people who do level their ed's on ee's. They doing care if it takes longer, they think it gives them a bigger challenge and I think they just like it. I also know people who are stringent best ed or don't come, but then a lot of the people like that that I know are ALSO the people complaining the game is too easy.




    I think I do see Producer Rowan's point. In the four years I have played this game, I have spend a LOT of time waiting for raids to fill. And it does make me wonder just how many people actually LIKE raiding. I don't know. I don't know if a lot or only a very few do it. But I do know I sit around for long periods of time waiting for people to join, and when I check the who lists there are a lot of people not involved in anything in the level range.



    I think this is a swing, and not a trend. Or so a little birdie told me recently.


    My point was I don't think it IS a deterrent. Someone is POSTING that gear up there, and therefor playing to get it. And the people who will spend plat and shards instead of playing the game in many cases aren't playing the ee's anyway. Before the split difficulty epics, you saw the same faces over and over in epics, because of lot of players didn't enjoy them. They didn't want to play them, didn't enjoy the low margin for error, and the rather boring tactics frequently (but not always) used of mass holds and then beating things that just stood there down. Those players are now running wild at EN and EH, having a great time, playing the game, joining and starting groups, and paying their sup and tbp fees. Which benefits the game as a whole. There has to be a place for those people too, and if they want to pay the people grinding the ee's for the better gear, I think that benefits the game, not deters it. It keeps the people who have maxed out their gear going, because they can make a nice profit off their efforts.




    So you've set yourself on a hamster wheel Turbine will never quite be able to fulfill. It doesn't matter how hard they make each progressive new difficulty, as you learn the quest it will cease to be a challenge to you. Heroic leveling was once hard, and then learned he quests inside and out and now it's hard. But people forget what it was like back when it was all new to them, and they didn't have the player knowledge and skill they do now.





    You say the devs decided hat end game is not worth their time, yet they just spent that last several months developing a new level cap, 13 new quests with epics, two new epic wilderness gear, and all that new epic gear (whether you liked it or not, they still spent the time developing it), new feats, as well as the epic reincarnation to give capped out players who are bored something to do, and are continuing to develop a new final level cap of 30 and quets/gear appropriate to that? What on earth do you qualify time as? I'm pretty sure it took them a while to work on all of that. And continue working on what's coming.




    True, the experience could be better, but it could also be considered that it's part of the enticement to play endgame. If you're not rocketing through it, you have something to work for and the incentive you say you want to play the game. It's like your saying at the same time you want to play endgame, but you don't want to rush through it. Sure, I get the allure of big numbers, it's an easy emotional greed-satiation. And if you qualify by xp per minute, the best thing you can do is NOT challenge yourself. Challenge isn't fast and easy. But when you did that superhard quest and got that xp you really felt like you earned it bit or small!

    However, when this game is dead and the servers are off, those of us who are saying to people "I used to paly this mmo called Ddo and I remember the time when" it won't be about the experience you earned on quests I hope, it will be about the fun you had actually playing it and the people you met who you played it with. That funny time you fell asleep at your keyboard in the pre-quest for adq and sailed like a swan into the lava (not me) or the time you sent everyone to Reclamation in Ataraxia but mean to do Reclaiming a Distant Past and are wondering why you're alone in house K (that was me) to the time you are the last person alive and save the day by killing the boss (mostly not me, but it was a few times! ).

    I'm not trying to change your mind by the way, just enjoying a discussion and enjoying learning more about your viewpoint an hopefully showing you mine, and the devs have to think about both of us!
    Nicely put.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You clearly have very little to no experience with how DDO "was designed" before you got here I base this opinion on previous threads where you've displayed this very evidently. So you really don't have any business claiming to know how it "always will be designed". Considering how many changes DDO has undergone your assertion looks like just something you decided to say randomly without any background or supporting logic to back it up.



    Again a baseless unsupported claim that appears to run counter to both common sense and past experience with the game (which again you don't appear to have, but which others very much do have).

    The level Cap was 20 for a very long time, "endgame" was everything from Shroud (which is still run and fills relatively easy though no where close to the old days) to VON5-6 (which is still run and fills quickly) and a BUNCH of other stuff that was run constantly despite being YEARS OLD... "endgame" was thriving during this time especially compared to now... even between updates... in fact the falloff and peaks were NOTHING AT ALL LIKE NOW... However almost all of those have loot that is very obsolete now, so no one runs them. Obsoleted by two ill-advised cap raises and a failure to buff them back up to endgame standards.

    So right now we have an example of how you want the game to be (empty and dieing between updates) and in the past when you apparently weren't around, we had an example of how the game used to be, thriving, MULTIPLE YEARS OF: of Hound's filling, TOD's, Abbots, Shrouds, DQ's, Epics that staid on the LFM panel FOR YEARS.

    I'm sorry but the only possible way you can conclude that the old style of endgame had worse peaks and troughs is if you made that thought up right then and posted it with no experience with which to arrive at that conclusion.




    And here we see the true underlying motive for your posts. Fine lets look at the current direction of the game as the new way, forsaking existing power/core gamers (actively forcing them out) and trying to cultivate more casuals and less dedicated player base:

    So far we have plummeting player activity levels, massive peaks and troughs at and between updates, and a game that feels like it's dieing fast. Imagine that, less dedicated gamers log in less and for shorter amounts of time. They are also leess able to hack the complicated gameplay and high skill ceiling of a WASD + Mouselook based game, they are used to point and click mouse movement.

    Now lets examine how a casual and less dedicated gamer player base is going to fair on the long term:

    What we already have observed:
    "The enhancement system is confusing" = EP
    "Undead are hard" = ghostbase
    "named gear and raid items are hard to get" = the new loot paradigm is random loot
    "random loot is hard to tell whats better or not" = simplified spreadsheet random loot

    By logical extension:
    But oh wait Constructs are also Hard!
    Elementals are hard, I don't like all this switching to cold!
    Reavers are hard!
    Reavers that look like fire reavers but are immune to cold damage are REALLY REALLY hard!
    Oh man I can't do any damage at all to this pitfiend
    Man this quest is way too hard because I don't/can't/wont use mouselook
    I don't like WASD movement it's too hard
    I'm in Amrath and my character can barely hit on a 17
    Wow Shroud is hard, and the loot is too confusing
    Everyone only wants to run on Elite or EH can we change that?
    I don't like "BYOH"
    I don't want to "know it" that's not fair I should be allowed in every LFM
    I can only play 3 hours a week, I want a "catchup system" like other MMO's have that allow me to earn the same XP in 3 hours as someone who plays 5 hours a day.
    LOTRO has regenerating HP's and MANA and you can't really ever die...

    Enjoy...
    That would be a really funny post except for a lot of its true sadly

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  9. #169
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense. After the 10th time it's all the same.

    Though I never get sick of "Purge the Heretics." There's just something about murdering halflings that never gets old.
    I remember farming that...
    Last edited by Soulfurnace; 09-20-2013 at 04:16 AM.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Nonsense. After the 10th time it's all the same.
    Maybe for you. But that's probably because of how you're doing it.

    I generally go months between playing the same levels. By the time I get back to a particular quest chain, I'm looking forward to it. Very rarely do I find myself thinking, "ugh, I have to run this again".

    Trying to solo Necro 3 on a rogue is not like doing it on a cleric, which is not like doing it on a barbarian, which is not like doing it on artificer. So in addition to only running things occasionally, each time I do it, it's quite different.

    If all I did was play "endgame", I'd be playing the same quests every day or three days for eternity. If there were 10 or even 20 "endgame" raids, it would STILL be boring as hell. Because 10 or 20 doesn't compare to 150 or 200.

    As an aside, I find the conflation of challenge and excitement interesting in threads like these. People say they want more challenge, but any situation in which things are less easy is derided not as challenging but "boring". I think a lot of people really don't want challenges, they want to blast through the most difficult quests so they feel like demigods. And that's fine, but let's be honest about it.
    Last edited by Qaliya; 09-20-2013 at 05:57 AM.

  11. #171
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    i dont like end game... its so boring.
    same farming...same quests...same grind

    epic TR will be the only way to trick me into doing some real epic questing others then loot runs for tokens and a little ed xp each life

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.

    well said
    Wherever you went - here you are.

  13. #173
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Maybe for you. But that's probably because of how you're doing it.

    I generally go months between playing the same levels. By the time I get back to a particular quest chain, I'm looking forward to it. Very rarely do I find myself thinking, "ugh, I have to run this again".

    Trying to solo Necro 3 on a rogue is not like doing it on a cleric, which is not like doing it on a barbarian, which is not like doing it on artificer. So in addition to only running things occasionally, each time I do it, it's quite different.
    This. Exactly.

    I'm not saying doing it the other way is wrong. If you guys enjoy zooming through TRs every week, and repeating the same quests week in and week out, cool.

    But it sure sounds like you DON'T enjoy it, so maybe you should try something different?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #174
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    It's too late to say no to U20.

  15. #175
    Community Member Eleia's Avatar
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    I raided for year in mmos; it was a blast, and I have no regrets doing it.

    However the sick sad truth is raiding games are slowly dying out, and games aren't really being made for the power gamer anymore. In all honesty, if you think about it, games are being designed to discourage power gamers from playing.

    GW2 and Defiance are the first two that come to mind. No end-game. Do you think EQN will have an end-game? I don't. I have my doubts about ESO as well.

    DDO has been pulling away from end-game for a while now. I wouldn't keep my hopes up that it will be back. Ever.
    The average player just doesn't raid. Heck, I stopped raiding in 2007 because I realized I didn't need any of the gear to play. That was before dungeon scaling.

    A lot of people just stopped grouping due to the fact that once you knew how to play, grouping wasn't necessary and soloing was the real challenge. Again, before dungeon scaling.

    MMOs have never been able to keep up with the power gamer. If you really look at the mmos on the market, it becomes apparent that companies are starting to pull away from designing around them.

    When EDs came out, a lot of people chewed threw what they assumed (right or wrong) would take months in two weeks. Then people were complaining that they were bored.

    What you all call "casuals" spend more time in the game, at least at the moment. There was a post recently about what type of gamer you were. The "power gamers" spent about 10 hours playing a week, while the "casuals" spent 20 to 56 hours a week. Which group makes more sense to design around?

    The casuals for the most part love the game and have praise while the "power games" are spending their time ranting. Again, which group makes more sense to design around?

    How much money do you all spend on tp? I spend about $100.00 a month not including pre-orders, so $1,200/year + $178 sub + about what $100 for each pre-order, + random purchases when I get supremes for who ever I'm playing most, so add in another $50 when the +5s went on sale. So, on average, give or take, I spend about 2k a year per account and my husband plays. That's 4k coming from my household a year.

    I would bet a lot of casuals spend more money on average that the "power gamer." Again, which makes more sense to design around.

    I'm sorry, I have nothing but respect for you guys I really do, but if you all leave and I mean all of the power gamers, "oh, no we lost the 1%." /shrug.
    If the casuals leave (which they have been and is why turbine has been addressing it.) the game falls. It's been that way in every MMO. Right or wrong, good or bad, it's been that way in the 14+ years I've played MMOs.

    You all have not been, nor do I expect you ever will be the main focus of this or any MMO again, and I suspect many of you realize that. You're not the end all be all of this game. People aren't playing in awe of you guys. It's in your heads.
    “Satisfaction lies in the effort, not in the attainment, full effort is full victory.” - Gandhi

  16. #176
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Is that how you do it?



    It is if you do it the way you describe above. But you don't have to do it that way. Ergo, it doesn't have to be mind numbing.

    TRing can be a blast because it's replaying the entire game, usually with a different build than before, so it's a slightly different experience. If you don't enjoy TRing and you don't enjoy end-game, why the heck are you people still here?

    Look, again I use my Max Payne 3 example... I replayed it all the way through recently. It had been 4 months since I last played it, so it was quite fun again.

    Here's what I didn't do... I didn't replay level 2 ten times in a row, then level 6 ten times in a row all in one week, then the following week do the exact same thing, then the following week do the exact same thing, then the following week do the exact same thing, and THEN... go to the Max Payne forums and complain that the game was boring and too grindy.

    If you repeat the same stuff over and over, week after week, and then complain about it, you're a grade A moron. No ifs, ands, or buts.
    The same can be said of your criticism of raiding as well. No one sits around and runs the same 5 raids and nothing else. When they are done with their raid runs they have TRs as well, and a lot of the best in slot loot comes out of quests now days, so if those people are grinding loot, they are questing too.

    See, all I have to do to get people to see how it actually is, is apply their own extreme logic to both sides of the argument. People here are acting like the TR junkies never enjoy raids and the raid junkies never TR or run quests, and this is simply not how DDO is divided up demographically.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #177
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleia View Post
    I raided for year in mmos; it was a blast, and I have no regrets doing it.

    However the sick sad truth is raiding games are slowly dying out, and games aren't really being made for the power gamer anymore. In all honesty, if you think about it, games are being designed to discourage power gamers from playing.

    GW2 and Defiance are the first two that come to mind. No end-game. Do you think EQN will have an end-game? I don't. I have my doubts about ESO as well.

    DDO has been pulling away from end-game for a while now. I wouldn't keep my hopes up that it will be back. Ever.
    The average player just doesn't raid. Heck, I stopped raiding in 2007 because I realized I didn't need any of the gear to play. That was before dungeon scaling.

    A lot of people just stopped grouping due to the fact that once you knew how to play, grouping wasn't necessary and soloing was the real challenge. Again, before dungeon scaling.

    MMOs have never been able to keep up with the power gamer. If you really look at the mmos on the market, it becomes apparent that companies are starting to pull away from designing around them.

    When EDs came out, a lot of people chewed threw what they assumed (right or wrong) would take months in two weeks. Then people were complaining that they were bored.

    What you all call "casuals" spend more time in the game, at least at the moment. There was a post recently about what type of gamer you were. The "power gamers" spent about 10 hours playing a week, while the "casuals" spent 20 to 56 hours a week. Which group makes more sense to design around?

    The casuals for the most part love the game and have praise while the "power games" are spending their time ranting. Again, which group makes more sense to design around?

    How much money do you all spend on tp? I spend about $100.00 a month not including pre-orders, so $1,200/year + $178 sub + about what $100 for each pre-order, + random purchases when I get supremes for who ever I'm playing most, so add in another $50 when the +5s went on sale. So, on average, give or take, I spend about 2k a year per account and my husband plays. That's 4k coming from my household a year.

    I would bet a lot of casuals spend more money on average that the "power gamer." Again, which makes more sense to design around.

    I'm sorry, I have nothing but respect for you guys I really do, but if you all leave and I mean all of the power gamers, "oh, no we lost the 1%." /shrug.
    If the casuals leave (which they have been and is why turbine has been addressing it.) the game falls. It's been that way in every MMO. Right or wrong, good or bad, it's been that way in the 14+ years I've played MMOs.

    You all have not been, nor do I expect you ever will be the main focus of this or any MMO again, and I suspect many of you realize that. You're not the end all be all of this game. People aren't playing in awe of you guys. It's in your heads.
    Its not about having endgame or not, as every game has endgame. Its a matter of what that endgame entails. What do you do when your character gets to the highest level possible and has most of the best gear possible?

    Your view on power gamers leaving having no impact is distorted as well. Who farms those rare items the casual players buy on the ASAH? Other casuals? Nope. Who writes the guides for quests and explorer zones days after they are released? Other casuals? Nope.



    EQN will have an endgame. It may not be the craziness EQ1s endgame was time consumption wise, but it will exist.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #178
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Most of the people in this thread just need to move to Farmville or Hello Kitty Online, it's more your speed.

  19. #179
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Most of the people in this thread just need to move to Farmville or Hello Kitty Online, it's more your speed.
    Well, id like to take your recommendation, comsidering the experience you have accumulated playing them, but i find them rather insipid. But everybody to their own, right?
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    But it sure sounds like you DON'T enjoy it, so maybe you should try something different?
    Or, if you don't want to do something different, at least stop making blanket statements about how TRing is a "hamster wheel" or that there's no difference in variety comparing 200 quests to a handful. Most of the problem you are seeing isn't with the TRing mechanism, it's with your "I'm in a big rush to get nowhere" approach to playing.

    A Grouch Marx quip comes to mind here.

    It's not exactly shocking that people who decide to grind everything are always bored. And that's not necessary here, so the choice is yours.

    It doesn't matter what you do or what style of play you like, as long as you PLAY. This is a game, not cleaning out the garage.

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