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  1. #121
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post

    Of course to enjoy this, you have to actually run the quests, rather than run past the quests.
    I see you're back to,
    "You play wrong, filthy power gaming trash. Get off my lawn!"

  2. #122
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is such a ridiculous falsehood it's not funny, I didn't even read the rest of your posts.

    How is running easy stuff SLOWER less boring? You've got to be kidding me.
    Because it's different from the stuff you've run 1000 times before.

    Something you've run 50 times before is less boring than something you've run 1000 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I see you're back to,
    "You play wrong, filthy power gaming trash. Get off my lawn!"
    *Re-reads his post.*

    Nope, never said that. Try again.

  4. #124
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This . . .

    If all you're looking for is XP the best path is a boring challenge-free snoozfest. The pursuit of loot was a better end-game.
    And it was better when we had more than a *handful* of raids/quests worth the bother for loot.


    Anyway norge why can't we have *both*? I like to have more options and choices, but I see the majority of people posting in this thread just want the way they *like* to play to be the *only* option, and damn to anyone else who likes to play a different way because.........theres just something *wrong* with those people. You know cause they are different................

    Thats the thing that really makes me scratch my head in confusion is when someone might suggest an idea that adds to a different way of playing that in no way detracts from someone else's favourite way to play and that person still gets all up in arms about it.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 09-19-2013 at 07:32 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I think you have it wrong the powergamers are the TR players. They are grinding something which has no purpose or reason to grind in order to make their characters better. The end game players are challenging characters and builds and seeing if they work or not i.e. they have a purpose and are not powergaming. If they decide they need to go back and tr a character to get a benefit then they have a purpose with that as well. TR players have no purpose, but are pure powergamers.
    Let's just call it a draw and say there are power gamers on both sides. I look at people that run a raid 20 times to get loot so they can run the EXACT SAME RAID as being power gamers way more than people that decide that replaying the game (this time with a higher experience requirement so they can play more quests before they reach 20) are power gamers. The past life feat may give some small amount of power, but what it really does is give a reason to replay the game. A week or two after the next expansion pack comes out, a person that TR's ten times will have gear that is just as good as the person that stayed at level cap the entire time while waiting for that expansion. You want to talk about playing without a purpose, replaying the same few raids so you can get gear to use in those exact same raids, only to replace that gear as soon as new content is released is wasted time with no purpose.

    And I know not too many people really want a challenge or the thread about having to level off destinies would not be so long. Playing epic elites in an off destiny adds a good amount of challenge and yet most players are not even willing to man up and try it. If it is not as easy as possible most players seem unwilling to even attempt it.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  6. #126
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    They need to add an "XP Bank" at end game that encourages people to stay they longer so grouping is better.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.
    End game is things we should be doing once we are leveled and geared. Gearing isn't end game. All you propose is to shift the hamster wheel from being tr'ing to gear farming. Even if the devs said omg suprize raidz and put like 4 new awesome raids with great loot in the game, and a half dozen flagging quests with decent loot to go with them, what are you going to suggest for "end game" in 2 or 3 months when the first wave of players completes farming that content into oblivion and either goes back in to semi-retirement or starts tr'ing again?

  8. #128
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Let's just call it a draw and say there are power gamers on both sides. I look at people that run a raid 20 times to get loot so they can run the EXACT SAME RAID as being power gamers way more than people that decide that replaying the game (this time with a higher experience requirement so they can play more quests before they reach 20) are power gamers. The past life feat may give some small amount of power, but what it really does is give a reason to replay the game. A week or two after the next expansion pack comes out, a person that TR's ten times will have gear that is just as good as the person that stayed at level cap the entire time while waiting for that expansion. You want to talk about playing without a purpose, replaying the same few raids so you can get gear to use in those exact same raids, only to replace that gear as soon as new content is released is wasted time with no purpose.

    And I know not too many people really want a challenge or the thread about having to level off destinies would not be so long. Playing epic elites in an off destiny adds a good amount of challenge and yet most players are not even willing to man up and try it. If it is not as easy as possible most players seem unwilling to even attempt it.
    yeah Im sure my barb would be challenged in EE leveling through Magister, but it wouldn't be fun. you and McFly continue to miss the point.

  9. #129
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    End game is things we should be doing once we are leveled and geared. Gearing isn't end game. All you propose is to shift the hamster wheel from being tr'ing to gear farming. Even if the devs said omg suprize raidz and put like 4 new awesome raids with great loot in the game, and a half dozen flagging quests with decent loot to go with them, what are you going to suggest for "end game" in 2 or 3 months when the first wave of players completes farming that content into oblivion and either goes back in to semi-retirement or starts tr'ing again?
    You answered your own question. Having raids does not exclude getting new quests. At least that first wave sticks around if we keep getting raids along with quests. They likely do not if we only get quests. Turbine has catered to both for 7 years. The attempted reasoning that they need to stop catering to one in order to cater to the other, is a myth.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    New system and dev time that made this game more fun. Also, they have to balance the needs of everyone, beginners and endgame alike. The recent enhancement pass added a lot of flexibility to the game, and was a great addition encouraging people to play once we got used to it. So what about it is the problem? Is it that people have the option to epic tr, go back to 20, and play their way up again that you are against? Because it's not required, it's an option that each player decides if it's worth it or not. Just like regular tr. Even after destinies a lot of people still do it, because they are bored sitting around the end of the game doing the same things over and over. They want to play the whole game again. Others like sitting at the top and put their energy to doing things there. Giving players options to do what is fun to them is the height of encouraging them to play.
    Not only more fun, but Epic TR gives a purpose to epic levels. I rarely play epics because I know they are a pointless waste of time. I know I am not going to want to sit at the level cap getting loot that I am going to throw out whenever they release new content and thus I know I am going to TR eventually. Every time I reach level 20 I feel like 100% of my time is being wasted because all the experience I am getting it going to get flushed when I TR. The first 19 levels are important because I need to be 20 to be able to TR, but any experience I get afterward is unnecessary and gives no benefit when I do TR so I rarely play epics at all. Epic TRing will probably increase the number of people playing at epic levels. It may spread the playerbase out in the 20-28 range more than they are now (fewer people just sitting at 28), but it will also cause a lot of people that just TR to spend time at epic levels when they normally would just TR back down to level 1 again.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    And it was better when we had more than a *handful* of raids/quests worth the bother for loot.


    Anyway norge why can't we have *both*? I like to have more options and choices, but I see the majority of people posting in this thread just want the way they *like* to play to be the *only* option, and damn to anyone else who likes to play a different way because.........theres just something *wrong* with those people.
    This is what I was saying, or trying to anyway. I am not against Dev time being spent on things that other folks enjoy, we all play and pay for the game. But, I don't want any one group get completely shafted/left out of Dev time. And right now, End Game is getting completely shafted.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  12. #132
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Let's just call it a draw and say there are power gamers on both sides. I look at people that run a raid 20 times to get loot so they can run the EXACT SAME RAID as being power gamers way more than people that decide that replaying the game (this time with a higher experience requirement so they can play more quests before they reach 20) are power gamers. The past life feat may give some small amount of power, but what it really does is give a reason to replay the game. A week or two after the next expansion pack comes out, a person that TR's ten times will have gear that is just as good as the person that stayed at level cap the entire time while waiting for that expansion. You want to talk about playing without a purpose, replaying the same few raids so you can get gear to use in those exact same raids, only to replace that gear as soon as new content is released is wasted time with no purpose.

    And I know not too many people really want a challenge or the thread about having to level off destinies would not be so long. Playing epic elites in an off destiny adds a good amount of challenge and yet most players are not even willing to man up and try it. If it is not as easy as possible most players seem unwilling to even attempt it.
    Youre making it sound like people ONLY replay the same raids or they TR. This isn't the case at all. Most people I know have toons at cap for raiding AND tr toons as well. Having raids AND quests adds to the options the game has. Focusing on only quests removes options, and show horns the entire population into TRing. More options is better.

    The epicing of gianthold was a better update than the expansion. It gave us a new raid and allowed us to play quests we already knew at epic levels. The new expansion gave us brand new quests, but no raid. That "first wave" youre talking about stayed around much longer for epic gianthold than they did for the "expansion".
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #133
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    End game is things we should be doing once we are leveled and geared. Gearing isn't end game. All you propose is to shift the hamster wheel from being tr'ing to gear farming. Even if the devs said omg suprize raidz and put like 4 new awesome raids with great loot in the game, and a half dozen flagging quests with decent loot to go with them, what are you going to suggest for "end game" in 2 or 3 months when the first wave of players completes farming that content into oblivion and either goes back in to semi-retirement or starts tr'ing again?
    now you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction. point it towards Turbine because they are the ones that made random loot more powerful than a lot of the named loot and easy to obtain for everyone. they are the ones that listened to people like you and nerfed questing that affects every type of playstyle to make it easier for casuals, soloists and new players. they are the ones that released a new "expansion" with no raid and most loot not worth really trying to get. they are the ones that cut end game from 7 raids to basically 2-3. they are the ones that cut end game almost completely out to invest in more hamster wheels. they are the ones that develop the loot and cant figure out a proper balance.

    if end game was anything like pre-MOTU than people like Maddmatt, me and many others would not be here talking about how end game needs to be juiced up again and not just about an ED or ETR hamster wheel.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    End game is things we should be doing once we are leveled and geared. Gearing isn't end game. All you propose is to shift the hamster wheel from being tr'ing to gear farming. Even if the devs said omg suprize raidz and put like 4 new awesome raids with great loot in the game, and a half dozen flagging quests with decent loot to go with them, what are you going to suggest for "end game" in 2 or 3 months when the first wave of players completes farming that content into oblivion and either goes back in to semi-retirement or starts tr'ing again?
    I don't want to speak for the OP, but if I understand his position correctly it isn't just about loot farming. Previously this game has provided some decent challenge. And I am talking about first to hit live servers, no one really knowing what to do, kind of thinking challenges. Not every single quest, but there were some walk thrus and some that required some thought as to how do you beat this thing.

    Cases in point, when first released: Crucible (cap went from 12-14) this quest took some trial and error to get it down. Laugh if you will, there are folks to this day that have been around since the start that still don't know the maze. Abbot (cap still 14) this raid dumbfounded masses and was a major achievement to beat it. Heh, even still with folks knowing what to do, I see groups with level 28s in it still wipe.

    Challenge. At least a little bit. Challenge in the form of puzzles and things that make you think and tweak builds/gear. There is not a single bit of thought proking challenge that has come for current cap level questing/raids in a long time. That is what they need to get back to, IMO. When everything level 1-20 is a roflstomp fest for a TR and everything 20+ is a snooze fest, guess what....folks get bored.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  15. #135
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre making it sound like people ONLY replay the same raids or they TR. This isn't the case at all. Most people I know have toons at cap for raiding AND tr toons as well. Having raids AND quests adds to the options the game has. Focusing on only quests removes options, and show horns the entire population into TRing. More options is better.

    The epicing of gianthold was a better update than the expansion. It gave us a new raid and allowed us to play quests we already knew at epic levels. The new expansion gave us brand new quests, but no raid. That "first wave" youre talking about stayed around much longer for epic gianthold than they did for the "expansion".
    Pre MOTU there were how many relevant raids? Shroud, DQ, VON, TOD, VOD, HOX, Chrono? Heck, even Reavers. And how many relevant quests? Sentinels, Carnival, Sands, VoN, Amrath, IQ, DD, DA ... hell I bet Stealer of Souls still challenged some at cap.

    Much smaller pool of options now.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  16. #136

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    I completely agree.

    I have been away from DDO and returned recently. I clearly remember a vibrant guild community, vibrant chat channels, lots of people and lots of LFMs. It's all been killed by a lack of attention to the 'end game'.

    Remember without community, MMORPGs are just RPGs. It is the people that you meet and game with - and raid with - that create the community that makes you want to log back in day after day.

    1: There needs to be a clear reason to, and benefit from, remaining at cap and playing a capped toon. Raiding needs to be a renewed focus. Seeking gear is a key part of that, or the old token system where you wanted to run at cap to accumulate.
    2: The ease of the game needs to return to something with some challenge. EE needs to be harder at all of the epic levels. Personally the easy mode instant kill casters really reduce the enjoyment of the game for me, if you play anything else other than that caster dominating that run

    Please bring back an endgame.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You answered your own question. Having raids does not exclude getting new quests. At least that first wave sticks around if we keep getting raids along with quests. They likely do not if we only get quests. Turbine has catered to both for 7 years. The attempted reasoning that they need to stop catering to one in order to cater to the other, is a myth.
    And then what? You put us right back to where we currently are. If every 6 months they release a couple new packs with some new best gear...people just say screw the gear farm its all going to be obsolete next update, I'm going to tr til I'm bored then quit.

    Or maybe they release some content that has no new best gear, and you just end up with people complaining the loot sucks and its not worth playing the new content, and they go back to tr'ing.

    How did that answer my own question? Loot farm isn't sustainable end game. Never has been. Never will be.

    When I look back to what people seem to be referring to as the glory days of raiding, the most common raids I recall seeing groups for were shroud/hox/vod. Shroud you could get level 11/12 gear out of, and hox/vod level 13 gear. Were raids actually the end game then, or were they just the best twink gear?

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Loot farm isn't sustainable end game. Never has been. Never will be.
    That's funny. Because, properly balanced, properly equated to different slots it was sustainable end game for quite some time. Devs just got lazy. Instead of designing the golden egg among the trash they just made it rain golden eggs.
    Last edited by Braegan; 09-19-2013 at 08:34 PM.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  19. #139
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    I like the epic reincarnation concept although the details are still being worked out. More options are good and that gives me more options.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  20. #140
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    So I have to choose between:

    A. Repeating over 200 different quests of varying design, complexity, level and difficulty, using any of dozens of different builds, with different races, different classes, different enhancements and different gear.

    Or...

    B. Repeating a small handful of quests that are quite similar in level and difficulty, using the same build with the same race, same classes, same enhancements and mostly same gear. Over and over and over and over and over and over while I wait for them to add, what, one new raid every six months or a year.

    And you think *A* is the hamster wheel?

    Playing for "endgame" in an MMO is like dedicating your entire life towards getting into a good nursing home when you're 80.
    Excellent post
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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