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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I remember failing Shroud at level, do anyone ever fail shroud now?
    I have had two shrouds fail in the last few months. One of them had only 4 of us alive at the end of part 4 and the group gave up before part 5. The other had a full wipe in part 4. Both were elite runs of shroud.
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  2. #62
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Running quests slowly (even easy quests), increases immersion. Less emphasis on the fights, more on the story. For some gamers, a small minority sadly, the dungeon crawl is far more important than the end reward list. In the end, all quests are completable, all loot is attainable. We don't 'NEED' to chase all the Shiny in order to complete quests. I mean, finding Pinion is not a flagging mechanism. So yeah, for some, it's more about the adventure than the race.
    BUT I'VE ALREADY DONE THAT. This game is 7 years old. What you're advising is great for new players and the best way to experience quests THE FIRST FEW TIMES you run them.

    Seriously, once you've done a quest once it's meta-gaming. I guess I could get hammered drunk so I don't remember old content and it feels new again?

    And I do run about 90% of the quests while leveling, I just run them at warp-speed because I've run them before.

    I'm sorry, but advising a vet to slow down is just inane.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Its more fun to play quests and raids, etc. where there is some sort of challenge. Levelling is an easy snoozefest. Trubine has never addressed that aspect of DDO that levelling is an easy snoozefest.
    Only if you make it a snoozefest by low balling all your quests. Its much easier to face an extreme challenge at low level than high, you just have to make a choice.
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  4. #64
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Only if you make it a snoozefest by low balling all your quests. Its much easier to face an extreme challenge at low level than high, you just have to make a choice.
    What this post needs is a big picture of Chewbacca.

  5. #65
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    LOL Let's see if I can get the quotes right!

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I like the destinies, but they do not encourage people to play the end game quests on epic elite because somebody has to be in a primary destiny or it takes longer if they do not. Somebody also does not get xp in epic elite like they do in epic normal or hard running a non end game quest.
    Depends. I know people who do level their ed's on ee's. They doing care if it takes longer, they think it gives them a bigger challenge and I think they just like it. I also know people who are stringent best ed or don't come, but then a lot of the people like that that I know are ALSO the people complaining the game is too easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Raiding tends to help the end game as people do raiding and they play end game quests as well. Raids provide a foundation for the end game. Raids are not extremely popular in DDO according to Producer Rowan, but whatever.
    I think I do see Producer Rowan's point. In the four years I have played this game, I have spend a LOT of time waiting for raids to fill. And it does make me wonder just how many people actually LIKE raiding. I don't know. I don't know if a lot or only a very few do it. But I do know I sit around for long periods of time waiting for people to join, and when I check the who lists there are a lot of people not involved in anything in the level range.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The named loot is not as good as random loot for the most part. You need to pick up more random loot to compare I guess. Named loot is a primary incentive to run a particular quest. Improved named loot at the least and a better loot system where we can better build upon past loot or get interesting exciting more customizeable loot.
    I think this is a swing, and not a trend. Or so a little birdie told me recently.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The auction house and currency effects everyone. Any form of deterrent on the end game should be changed or removed.
    My point was I don't think it IS a deterrent. Someone is POSTING that gear up there, and therefor playing to get it. And the people who will spend plat and shards instead of playing the game in many cases aren't playing the ee's anyway. Before the split difficulty epics, you saw the same faces over and over in epics, because of lot of players didn't enjoy them. They didn't want to play them, didn't enjoy the low margin for error, and the rather boring tactics frequently (but not always) used of mass holds and then beating things that just stood there down. Those players are now running wild at EN and EH, having a great time, playing the game, joining and starting groups, and paying their sup and tbp fees. Which benefits the game as a whole. There has to be a place for those people too, and if they want to pay the people grinding the ee's for the better gear, I think that benefits the game, not deters it. It keeps the people who have maxed out their gear going, because they can make a nice profit off their efforts.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I like being challenged and find that levelling provides no challenge. I enjoy DDO's combat system and character creation system, but that is not sufficient without a challenge.
    So you've set yourself on a hamster wheel Turbine will never quite be able to fulfill. It doesn't matter how hard they make each progressive new difficulty, as you learn the quest it will cease to be a challenge to you. Heroic leveling was once hard, and then learned he quests inside and out and now it's hard. But people forget what it was like back when it was all new to them, and they didn't have the player knowledge and skill they do now.



    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    There has been plenty of systems from different loot systems, to reincarnation like benefits from playing end game quests, to additional difficulties, to different ways of varying the quests themselves, changing AI of the mobs and challenges in the quests, epicfying other old quests, improved challenge systems and the list goes on and on. The suggestions and general discussion are littered with suggestions regarding end game play. The devs decided the end game is not worthy of their time.
    You say the devs decided hat end game is not worth their time, yet they just spent that last several months developing a new level cap, 13 new quests with epics, two new epic wilderness gear, and all that new epic gear (whether you liked it or not, they still spent the time developing it), new feats, as well as the epic reincarnation to give capped out players who are bored something to do, and are continuing to develop a new final level cap of 30 and quets/gear appropriate to that? What on earth do you qualify time as? I'm pretty sure it took them a while to work on all of that. And continue working on what's coming.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I find the end game quests very fun actually. I dislike that I get terrible xp on the quests compared to other xp quests especially the xp per minute that you get on the epic elite difficulty.
    True, the experience could be better, but it could also be considered that it's part of the enticement to play endgame. If you're not rocketing through it, you have something to work for and the incentive you say you want to play the game. It's like your saying at the same time you want to play endgame, but you don't want to rush through it. Sure, I get the allure of big numbers, it's an easy emotional greed-satiation. And if you qualify by xp per minute, the best thing you can do is NOT challenge yourself. Challenge isn't fast and easy. But when you did that superhard quest and got that xp you really felt like you earned it bit or small!

    However, when this game is dead and the servers are off, those of us who are saying to people "I used to paly this mmo called Ddo and I remember the time when" it won't be about the experience you earned on quests I hope, it will be about the fun you had actually playing it and the people you met who you played it with. That funny time you fell asleep at your keyboard in the pre-quest for adq and sailed like a swan into the lava (not me) or the time you sent everyone to Reclamation in Ataraxia but mean to do Reclaiming a Distant Past and are wondering why you're alone in house K (that was me) to the time you are the last person alive and save the day by killing the boss (mostly not me, but it was a few times! ).

    I'm not trying to change your mind by the way, just enjoying a discussion and enjoying learning more about your viewpoint an hopefully showing you mine, and the devs have to think about both of us!
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    BUT I'VE ALREADY DONE THAT. This game is 7 years old. What you're advising is great for new players and the best way to experience quests THE FIRST FEW TIMES you run them.

    Seriously, once you've done a quest once it's meta-gaming. I guess I could get hammered drunk so I don't remember old content and it feels new again?
    But please don't! Seriously, I've played with a few of those guys on Sarlona, repeatedly, and it is just excruciatingly painful to be stuck in a quest with them listening to the slurred rants! It gets really bizarre, and the snoring can be really truly annoying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And I do run about 90% of the quests while leveling, I just run them at warp-speed because I've run them before.

    I'm sorry, but advising a vet to slow down is just inane.
    It's not insane. I've been playing for four years, and done everything except shadowfell on heroic casual to epic elite at some point, but I can still slow down and take the time to have fun. It's who you quest with in my opinion (and only mine) that makes the difference. When my friends group is together, we're not worried at all about xp per minute or warp speed, we're just looking to have fun and play a good game, and it works for us even though we could do the **** in our sleep. And I love running with newbies and following along behind and watching the fun of them discovering new things. Vets are not one lump zero sum equeation.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    with the way DDO is designed and always will be designed,
    You clearly have very little to no experience with how DDO "was designed" before you got here I base this opinion on previous threads where you've displayed this very evidently. So you really don't have any business claiming to know how it "always will be designed". Considering how many changes DDO has undergone your assertion looks like just something you decided to say randomly without any background or supporting logic to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    more "endgame" will simply increase the population jump after updates and the population wane shortly after.
    Again a baseless unsupported claim that appears to run counter to both common sense and past experience with the game (which again you don't appear to have, but which others very much do have).

    The level Cap was 20 for a very long time, "endgame" was everything from Shroud (which is still run and fills relatively easy though no where close to the old days) to VON5-6 (which is still run and fills quickly) and a BUNCH of other stuff that was run constantly despite being YEARS OLD... "endgame" was thriving during this time especially compared to now... even between updates... in fact the falloff and peaks were NOTHING AT ALL LIKE NOW... However almost all of those have loot that is very obsolete now, so no one runs them. Obsoleted by two ill-advised cap raises and a failure to buff them back up to endgame standards.

    So right now we have an example of how you want the game to be (empty and dieing between updates) and in the past when you apparently weren't around, we had an example of how the game used to be, thriving, MULTIPLE YEARS OF: of Hound's filling, TOD's, Abbots, Shrouds, DQ's, Epics that staid on the LFM panel FOR YEARS.

    I'm sorry but the only possible way you can conclude that the old style of endgame had worse peaks and troughs is if you made that thought up right then and posted it with no experience with which to arrive at that conclusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    My belief is that Turbine should no longer worry about these types of players and instead focus their design choices on those people that play the game in a constant manner and try to grow this audience.
    And here we see the true underlying motive for your posts. Fine lets look at the current direction of the game as the new way, forsaking existing power/core gamers (actively forcing them out) and trying to cultivate more casuals and less dedicated player base:

    So far we have plummeting player activity levels, massive peaks and troughs at and between updates, and a game that feels like it's dieing fast. Imagine that, less dedicated gamers log in less and for shorter amounts of time. They are also leess able to hack the complicated gameplay and high skill ceiling of a WASD + Mouselook based game, they are used to point and click mouse movement.

    Now lets examine how a casual and less dedicated gamer player base is going to fair on the long term:

    What we already have observed:
    "The enhancement system is confusing" = EP
    "Undead are hard" = ghostbase
    "named gear and raid items are hard to get" = the new loot paradigm is random loot
    "random loot is hard to tell whats better or not" = simplified spreadsheet random loot

    By logical extension:
    But oh wait Constructs are also Hard!
    Elementals are hard, I don't like all this switching to cold!
    Reavers are hard!
    Reavers that look like fire reavers but are immune to cold damage are REALLY REALLY hard!
    Oh man I can't do any damage at all to this pitfiend
    Man this quest is way too hard because I don't/can't/wont use mouselook
    I don't like WASD movement it's too hard
    I'm in Amrath and my character can barely hit on a 17
    Wow Shroud is hard, and the loot is too confusing
    Everyone only wants to run on Elite or EH can we change that?
    I don't like "BYOH"
    I don't want to "know it" that's not fair I should be allowed in every LFM
    I can only play 3 hours a week, I want a "catchup system" like other MMO's have that allow me to earn the same XP in 3 hours as someone who plays 5 hours a day.
    LOTRO has regenerating HP's and MANA and you can't really ever die...

    Enjoy...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I don't want to "know it" that's not fair I should be allowed in every LFM
    This one is kinda unfair. Most of the people who are new and complaining about this have a semi-valid point. On the one hand, they could just read up on the wiki (IF they know about it) or explore it alone or form their own group to explore it and learn it (IF anyone else will join them and they think to do it); but on the other hand a lot of these players legitimately want to learn and play with people who know what is going on so they can learn from them.

    I once had a player follow me from the first quest of Korthos when I was tr'ing Turtle through the entire harbor, cerulean hills quests, the market, and into house P. At the end of the session when I told the group (all different except that one lone player who'd been rather quietly staying in my group) I had to go, I made a remark that dude must really like playing with me! He sent me a quiet tell that said "I really enjoyed it, I'm very new to the game, and so many people don't want anyone new around, and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong so often, and you told us why you do things certain ways and answered questions". I was floored. The next day I sent him a link to the wiki and told him it's full of spoilers, but also everything is in there if your search fu was good. He sent back a thank you, with a silly necklace because 'ladies should get a gift for being gracious, even though he knows I didn't need it, he hoped I took it for the thought'. Which I did, it was sweet.

    That day reminded me the game is a heck of a lot more than what the devs put into. It's equally what the players put into it. A lot of people who go, it's not always about changes to the systems, or the game itself, the level caps or quest repetition, but a lot leave because the community can be a really unfriendly place. I don't think it's inherent to the game by any means, more a offshoot of our modern instant-gratification all about me culture.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The level Cap was 20 for a very long time, "endgame" was everything from Shroud (which is still run and fills relatively easy though no where close to the old days) to VON5-6 (which is still run and fills quickly) and a BUNCH of other stuff that was run constantly despite being YEARS OLD... "endgame" was thriving during this time especially compared to now... even between updates... in fact the falloff and peaks were NOTHING AT ALL LIKE NOW... However almost all of those have loot that is very obsolete now, so no one runs them. Obsoleted by two ill-advised cap raises and a failure to buff them back up to endgame standards.
    Don't get me wrong for saying this next part since I agree that the random-gen bonanza, loss of a raid scene, and massive level increases over a short period are hurting the game from my viewpoint (may not be everyone's) and these are Turbine decisions.

    For me, the one player decision that really puts the icing on the cake of decline is the emphasis on channel/guild runs. Even if there are a lot of people on these days, new players have no way of really knowing that because the LFM system is fairly barren compared to what it was (at least lately on Argo). The days you are describing in the above quote were often filled with multiple competing LFMs for a raid that was probably 75% guild and 25% pugged if I remember correctly. I think that kind of advertisement was beneficial to the game. Raids are more likely to contribute to this style of grouping, but quests aren't, they're too easy and often better run alone (again Turbine can help with re-evaluating death penalties, streak XP, overall XP, and dungeon scaling). But if players can take any action to help the game (beyond posting on the forums) its probably going to be posting LFMs even if you don't need to.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I remember failing Shroud at level, do anyone ever fail shroud now?
    I remember running Shroud on Elite with level 14-16 toons. Failed a few but completed tons more. It makes me sick to my stomach to see people running it with level 28s and refusing to do even hard.
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  11. #71
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    Sorry rather have the reincarnation and more heroic stuff than end game stuff I like the journey more than the destination.

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  12. #72
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    I'd love at least another couple of updates with 3 epic quests each before implementing Epic TR. No point in grinding super awesome Epic past lives if you have nothing to use them for.
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  13. #73
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I'd love at least another couple of updates with 3 epic raids each before implementing Epic TR. No point in grinding super awesome Epic past lives if you have nothing to use them for.
    ftfy

    I seriously hope more raids are in the works and that etr is just a delaying tactic to give the designers time.

  14. #74
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I disagree completely. DDO has always been easy. Once you memorize a quest, this game is completely easy. There is no randomness. All it takes to be good at DDO, and all it's ever taken, boils down to this. See encounter you've seen 10000 times --> React to encounter the same successful way you have 10000 times. It has always been this way. Before MOTU, it may have taken more of a group to successfully counter, but that shouldn't be mistaken for difficulty.
    How do you counter metagaming in an MMO, which has static quests? If that is your justification, then DDO has always had this problem, since the games release. It was far more difficult back when it was released til about 2009 or so, when the soloers really began to take precidence. Take into account for instance, that quests never used to scale. Soloing was an accomplishment. Nowdays its the best way to level, because youll be presented with far less of a challenge due to scaling.

    Quests and chains have also been dumbed down to the LCD. We call it Crucibled for a reason.

    And its not like TRing is any harder either. Youre doing the same thing you outlined. Metagaming.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Need a lot more raids - endgame is suffering at the moments; this alienates a section of the playerbase. Would love it if they released a series of raids, with good loot, and stopped raising the level cap and power of the players for a while (at least the drastic rises we have seen), so the content stays relevant for a bit.

    I struggle to believe they want another TR system, when there is already so much TRing implemented in the game.
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  16. #76
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    It's quite clear that you and I greatly differ on our opinions about game design and the way game design works. There isn't much more to say, other than, with the way DDO is designed and always will be designed, more "endgame" will simply increase the population jump after updates and the population wane shortly after. My belief is that Turbine should no longer worry about these types of players and instead focus their design choices on those people that play the game in a constant manner and try to grow this audience.
    Thats not how business works. Here we have a game that has demonstrated it could cater to both endgamers and questers alike, and youre asking for focus to stop being put on endgamers. Note that the endgamers dont ask for focus to stop being put on questors, because they understand that no sacrifice needs to be made of either group.

    And if you believe raiding is the only playstyle that contributes to population jump after updates and the population wane shortly after, this "current expansion proved your theory incorrect, because there was no raid, and the same exact thing happened. Population jumped shortly after release, and people left soon as they got what they wanted out of the expansion. This happens after most content updates, whether there is a raid or not.

    The TR grind is just as mindless as the raid grind. Its a matter of preference, and theres no reason to sacrifice either demographic when they have been ale to cater to both for 7 years now.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-19-2013 at 02:47 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    ftfy

    I seriously hope more raids are in the works and that etr is just a delaying tactic to give the designers time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza
    I'd love at least another couple of updates with 3 epic quests each and 2 epic raids before implementing Epic TR. No point in grinding super awesome Epic past lives if you have nothing to use them for.
    Fixed myself for you.
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  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I really enjoy the destiny system, and have had a lot of fun with it. And having something to do with the experience I was getting questing and basically wasting while I was sitting on cap made it a blast, and actually makes me spend longer times capped out than I would without it. What exactly is it you don't like about the destiny system? Most people believe their power comes from it. Or is it that you want to just cap you're 'best destiny' and not have to work for the fate points and twist abilities, and just get them free
    I think he means to level off destinies, because that's a grind on a level way beyond TRing.


    Fall of Truth isn't that old yet, and I think it takes a LOT of dev time to make decent raids. I'd rather they work hard on it and make it good than just churn out ****. Also, raiding is only part of the gaming experience. The only real difference I've noticed between raids and quests in the same level is more people to gather, and to hope they all get along all right for the duration of the quest. Man has there been some crazy fights during raids. LOL How many raids and how often do you think there should be? You don't really give a lot of details or information for anyone at turbine or the playerbase reading this to think on at all.
    FoT is only good for comms now. Turbine made sure that most named loot was pretty much made worthless outside weapons. I can maybe imagine the boots for my paladin or such but it's hard to argue for say the tablecloth for anyone.


    Since they by their own admission haven't really reached the end game of 30 yet, I'm reserving judgement. I also have enjoyed several of the new named pieces I picked up, so generally disagree with you also on this point. What exactly don't you like about it? What do you like about it? What would you suggest they have put into the game?
    The issue here is that they severely botched the xpack. The offered what was essentially 2 adventure packs with no staying power. No upgrade system, no reason to grind them, no crafting. It was a pile of terrible loot and OP random stuff. And once you do them on EE it's done. And that's bad because most of the quest was layers more interesting (mechanically) then the 2 packs of harper quests before it. BUT - at least those epic quests offered comms for unlocking stuff from MOTU. And ironically maybe the best feature with the Wheelon quests is that they help people who don't run with EE groups to unlock enough PDK favor.

    THe auction house has zero effect on my playing. I play this game for the experience of playing it, and the fun of actually doing the quests, not for the loot. Sure I like it when something nice drops, but if you handed me a set of the absolute best gear EVER for my toon right now, I would still play the same. It's a game. I like playing games. And the reverse could be argued here, it motivated people to grind for the gear to sell it to make plat/shards. I remember a LOT of raids where loot was left to rot in the chest because no one would use it. It was not by any means an uncommon occurrence either.
    The idea with the shardAH was to offer a way to add shards to the economy and create a way to make it self sustainable outside buying shards. In theory it should work. If items had any value - and while the 30% cut was a little steep it would have less impact if the named items (or such) offered a rare value. Like the EE visors. Or EE Jorgundals collar. By virtue of rarity and uniqueness you could get enough shards out of the system to not need to buy anymore - circulating it through the economy as Turbine gets it's cut and makes a little less money on Shards as time goes by. And that's good when so much else is monetized - like teleporters in the new quest wilderness or the ability to buy hirelings and vendors for shards.

    Then with a single xpack the entire market just got sucked into a dark hole. Deadly of accuracy with yellow slot at level 21? No prob - it's even better then a level 25 EE visor. Or how about a +9 or +10 stat item at 26 or 27 - well sucks to hold onto the thing you got now. Once more creating a system that undercuts the value of a free 2 play model. Remember how they changed turn ins? We got all excited when they changed the amounts at first so you could now maybe pull a random augment or something else. Well, come launch the amounts was times 10 on the most rare mats in this game and the very idea to turn something in was shoot squarely in the melon

    What system do you want? Keep adding more end game quests with bigger and badder loot, and you're going to drive off the people already unhappy with the power creep as we have it now in this game. And endgame is in and of itself a hamster well. You sit capped out, doing the same quests over and over. Sounds extremely boring! I think the epic reincarnation, with the choice of whether or not to do heroic, is a fabulous compromise that leaves room for all sorts of players.
    How about a system with staying power? Like ToD rings and green steel back in the day? Not with the pathetic drop chance, but where you build your own stuff and always work against a incremental goal, and where it feels like you want to run the quests that provides this opportunity or the raids.

    How about adding a chance for a comm drop to all current epic raids - redo the chance for the drop of the items and a chance to upgrade those items using comms? Like the base item using the shard, seal and scroll system with all shards and seals unbound (to be put on the market) and then a 1 time comm upgrade to a level 24 or 28 item? Challenge what exist and give a reason to continue use what we have worked so hard on.

    And a end game system for high level folks. Several raids that lead to legendary status with legendary benefits. Incremental features that makes people want to be a legend. This can be accomplished while still offering grindy features.

    Finally - close the loop on stories. Stop expanding. Close the loop on the harper stuff and close the loop on Lolth and find a way to close the loop on all Eberron stuff - do a FoT - expand the Amrath stuff and close it. Look at all open stories like the Lordmarch and close them. Make people feel like they played this game for 7 years and now they're at the apex of their legendary journey seeing the end. They ARE the heroes from hall of heroes.

    Instead we get a continued spread of open story lines without a solid vision and all our work is drowned in a terrible new random loot system that completely wiped away the feeling of something unique random stuff recieved with MOTU but never fully competed with or removed the better named stuff.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    People don't raid because Turbine, in their infinite ineptitude, destroyed both peoples' completions AND the loot you get for the 20th lists. Nobody wants to run raids at the moment because they do not want to get a 20th list and get screwed out of loot.

    People don't raid because the loot you get from raids is inferior to regular old random-gen loot you can easily get off the Shard AH for 40 shards.

    Fix these issues, and people will start raiding again.
    I disagree completely. There's only a handful of you screaming for more grind. You are greatly outnumbered by people complaining about low drop rates and some random conspiracy theory about how Turbine has high drop rates for packs when they release them and then lower the drop rates later. You are greatly outnumbered by people who do not want to grind. This mythic return to the time when everyone loved to grind raids all day will never happen because it isn't what the playerbase wants.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    This mythic return to the time when everyone loved to grind raids all day will never happen because it isn't what the playerbase wants.
    Yes it is.

    You are wrong.

    I've said so so it must be true.

    Have fun in your hamster wheel, let the real gamers play a real game.

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