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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    talk about your epic retcons. players got bored of LOB and were whining about that a few weeks after it came out. The 'endgame' lootgrind before MotU was the worst mind numbing experience ever. Why do you think TRing was popular long before MotU? It was not just for the 5% healing amp.
    If it wasn't for the TR system I likely would have quit two years ago. My first TR was maybe 2 or 3 weeks after capping my first character because the so-called "endgame" was about as interesting as painting a barn with a toothbrush.

    Now if they can make a good epic "endgame" again and TR options, great. But it's not likely given Turbine's resources. And calling on them to scrap the epic TR system so we can get a new borefest? Sorry, can't be in favor of that.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    They are going to be adjusting the XP requirements with U20 I believe. And we can at least hope that there will be more content in the 26-28 range.
    I was not aware they were looking to adjust Epic level XP. I may have misread it, but I thought only Heroic level XP was being adjusted. If you have a link please share it.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    They (if I am getting the right "they") are asking for a meaningful, fun endgame again. The endgame that was present in the past was not fun for everyone. For those it was not fun for, they TR'd or worked on alts. For those it was fun for, they (we) enjoyed it. The gears have shifted by Turbine Development making endgame fun and meaningful for those that like to play their capped charactes a non priority. Which is sad, to ignore any chunk of your playerbase, and is just poor business.
    And this fun endgame revolves around massive grinding, which is exactly what I said .

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    I was not aware they were looking to adjust Epic level XP. I may have misread it, but I thought only Heroic level XP was being adjusted. If you have a link please share it.
    I believe the only thing being adjust is the TR curve. More xp needed to level at low levels, less xp at higher levels.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And this fun endgame revolves around massive grinding, which is exactly what I said .
    I think you are missing the point of why it was fun for some people.

    As I said, not everyone found it fun. Some did. There were options tho, that you had different ways to play this game, depending on what was fun for you.

    And to spell it out more. It was fun because there represented a challenge, without being rediculous inflation of HP/Saves/Damage by mobs. It was fun because while getting some of the loot may have been a bit grindy/luck dependant. The loot was good. It felt nice to check something off the bucket-list to complete an epic item. Quests now are insanely easy to beat on EN-EH, have the option of being completely insane on EE. The loot is mostly garbage compared to what you can find randomly.

    No Realistic Challenge, No Interesting Loot, Insane XP grind all equal no carrot.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    I was not aware they were looking to adjust Epic level XP. I may have misread it, but I thought only Heroic level XP was being adjusted. If you have a link please share it.
    Found it:

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

    Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)
    There ya go.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    They (if I am getting the right "they") are asking for a meaningful, fun endgame again. The endgame that was present in the past was not fun for everyone. For those it was not fun for, they TR'd or worked on alts. For those it was fun for, they (we) enjoyed it. The gears have shifted by Turbine Development making endgame fun and meaningful for those that like to play their capped charactes a non priority. Which is sad, to ignore any chunk of your playerbase, and is just poor business.



    There was nothing fun about running the same six raids X million times for stupid seals and shards to get another +1 to a stat or DC. Even a large number of folks who participated in it didn't find running VoN the exact same way for the 10,000th time, fun. They did it because there was no alternative to TRing, which they also found unpleasant.


    Go back in the threads a few years to see the myriad of complaints about how "ZOMG Shroud took more than two rounds!" and other noise to get a sense of how 'fun' everyone thought it was. The mindless hamster wheel of loot accumulation at cap is an MMO thing that I will never miss and I hope DDO never bothers to cater to it again.


    Obviously if there were money to be made Turbine would put development dollars into it. Since it isn't, and since Turbine is still profitable, I think it is safe to say that most paying customers do not want (or at least don't really care) about returning to running the same 5-6 raids at cap for two years. I think the 'chunk' of the player base you claim Turbine is ignoring is much more of a sliver.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    talk about your epic retcons. players got bored of LOB and were whining about that a few weeks after it came out. The 'endgame' lootgrind before MotU was the worst mind numbing experience ever. Why do you think TRing was popular long before MotU? It was not just for the 5% healing amp.
    TRing was popular long before MOTU because epics were endgame. Running quests for more character power -vs- running quests for more character power.

    LOB was also [1.5]x weapons at the time, not changed to the [2] multiplier until much later - and those weapons were a baby step above shroud. People with specific builds farmed it - 2x khopesh who wanted stun +10 on a slash weapon, monks for wraps, tanks and divines for shields, and artys for tovens hammer. Lightning2 khopesh and eSOS builds were still endgame melee builds for 2wf and 2hf respectively.

    When TOD/shroud was endgame = the best era of DDO. Even many casual players liked that era, because shroud runs werent just for the elite gamers, and each run produced more ingredients which got them closer to their goal. We had timers back then that could not be paid to circumvent so after doing our shroud runs, the endgamers quested like everyone else did, and TR'd like everyone else did.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    No Realistic Challenge, No Interesting Loot, Insane XP grind all equal no carrot.
    More retconning. Like the old epics were challenging? Get your DCs up, cast mass hold, kill everything, pray for seal to drop.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    There was nothing fun about running the same six raids X million times for stupid seals and shards to get another +1 to a stat or DC. Even a large number of folks who participated in it didn't find running VoN the exact same way for the 10,000th time, fun. They did it because there was no alternative to TRing, which they also found unpleasant.
    Compared to what? Running the same 15 quests repeatedly for a past life that gets you a +1 to a mod for tactics, damage or spell pen?


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Go back in the threads a few years to see the myriad of complaints about how "ZOMG Shroud took more than two rounds!" and other noise to get a sense of how 'fun' everyone thought it was. The mindless hamster wheel of loot accumulation at cap is an MMO thing that I will never miss and I hope DDO never bothers to cater to it again.


    Obviously if there were money to be made Turbine would put development dollars into it. Since it isn't, and since Turbine is still profitable, I think it is safe to say that most paying customers do not want (or at least don't really care) about returning to running the same 5-6 raids at cap for two years. I think the 'chunk' of the player base you claim Turbine is ignoring is much more of a sliver.
    TRing is equally mind munbing as raiding. Also - the fact that we want raids does in no way mean thats the only thing we want to run is raids. Your assumptions are incorrect that they arent putting dev dollars into raids, because they are. We are getting a new raid early next year. It is no where near safe to say that most paying customers do not want raids. No one is returning to running ONLy the same 5-6 raids. We got quests with just about every pack that had a raid too, so its not like asking for raids excludes making more quests. MOTU had 4 tiers of flagging quests before the raid could be run. The last expansion had LESS quests and NO raid.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    More retconning. Like the old epics were challenging? Get your DCs up, cast mass hold, kill everything, pray for seal to drop.
    Compared to what? Quests without raids - same thing. DCs, CC, kill, and pray for named loot to drop.

    Or just buy it off the p2wAH - and not even run quests. LOL
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    There was nothing fun about running the same six raids X million times for stupid seals and shards to get another +1 to a stat or DC. Even a large number of folks who participated in it didn't find running VoN the exact same way for the 10,000th time, fun. They did it because there was no alternative to TRing, which they also found unpleasant.


    Go back in the threads a few years to see the myriad of complaints about how "ZOMG Shroud took more than two rounds!" and other noise to get a sense of how 'fun' everyone thought it was. The mindless hamster wheel of loot accumulation at cap is an MMO thing that I will never miss and I hope DDO never bothers to cater to it again.


    Obviously if there were money to be made Turbine would put development dollars into it. Since it isn't, and since Turbine is still profitable, I think it is safe to say that most paying customers do not want (or at least don't really care) about returning to running the same 5-6 raids at cap for two years. I think the 'chunk' of the player base you claim Turbine is ignoring is much more of a sliver.
    I have to disagree with you. I had fun and I know I am not the only one. Unlike the other side of the camp, I am not requesting that any part of the player base be ignored. I am requesting that the portion of the game I enjoyed the most receive some equal developer attention as well as the other aspects of the game that others enjoy.

    Sure some folks complained about every little thing. But, that's human nature on steroids on an MMO message board. I could turn that complaing around and say how many posts have you seen about someone complaining about "noobs dying" and "neg 10xp!." Folks complain, alot.

    As far as the money aspect goes. Turbine has sunk more into TRing because it was an easier pill for gamers to swallow to start selling XP pots, further pushed by XP stones. If they were to have gone back in time and sold seals and shards, they would have made just about the same amount of profit I am sure, although that would've caused an outrage on the boards. Either could have made them money, they just chose one over the other, instead of doing both.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    More retconning. Like the old epics were challenging? Get your DCs up, cast mass hold, kill everything, pray for seal to drop.
    Good luck getting past the SR of Epic Drow at that point in the game to land a mass hold.

    The old epics were IMO a challenge rating inbetween what is currently EH and EE. It's not the snooze fest EH is, but not quite the brutaility EE is. If you had the gear and worked on it, DCs mattered. Now why is it you see most end game casters going Shiradi? It sure isn't the lack of gear they can achieve, it's because EE has dug a grave for DC casters. You can cast Ottos dance or Magic Missile! Not only is it more grind in todays game, but my whole spell book has been reduced to a handful of spells. Zuber.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    And yet there's only a handful of you ever here asking for more grind. Why is that? Why is everyone else complaining about DDO having too much grind? Why aren't people running these old raids? I have no problem with Turbine adding more raids, but that isn't what you guys are asking for. What you're asking for is an entire design shift to endgame raiding where only the best gear can be found in these raids (because god knows, for all the grinding you seem to enjoy doing, you don't like it enough to just do it to do it). The problem with this is that it adds to powercreep. It adds to Turbine then designing the next set of quests around the endgame loot they previously released. It's a stacking problem. Only a handful of people will ever partake in this grinding system, then the next pack will be even more dead. Then the next one. This isn't good design decision.
    Actually we want something to do besides ED grind in useless off destinies and have something to look forward to. Content is too easy to get through because the casuals, soloists and new players wanted the same things as everyone else. The problem was never the grind. It was the drop rates controlled by Turbine. Reasoning for it was good because we do need some grind to keep playing, but the fairness of drop rates was and still isn't for old loot somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't say it was the best system but a system that worked. A game without grind and not enough content continuously spitting out is a game that won't continue surviving with fun as the only real motivator. Look at what's happening now. End game is dead and the Hamster Wheel game is what's being played. I already outlined the biggest reasons why.

    The best gear should be found in raids, IMO. If you think about it you are working your way through a storyline fighting armies to get to the boss who dominates the land. Once defeated you have a chance at finding powerful treasure that helped the boss keep his hold on the land he controlled. A quest boss loot or loot you get for killing a wilderness rare shouldn't be more powerful.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You have a strange view of history. Very few groups were able to beat epic elite LOB for the first few months it was out. Even Epic Hard Lob was no cakewalk for pugs.
    Speaking of strange views on history, I would have to say that the reason for this is that by the time that the entire Epic Elite-Hard-Normal thing rolled around The Lord of Blades was already extremely old news that no one was bothering to run any more, not that they were not able to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Epic was only beaten by a handful for groups until MoTU came out.

    But it gave you a "mountain to climb," something to aim for.
    Now this is an absolute laugh! I don't know what server you're playing on, but I personally beat LoB with a couple of handful of different guild groups on Thellanis before U14. And there were many others that I did not have any friends in doing it as well. You may want to remember your victories as being something exclusive.... but they weren't. (Real) Epic LoB was getting run by anyone who really had the desire to do it.

    DDO Raids have always been of the 'raid lite' flavor. They require very little specialized skill compared to any raiding MMO, and essentially no gear progression. Even Turbine's more popular MMO offering, LotRO, has a much more solid raid game. DDO's version of raids have always been very accessible, and essentially PuGable after the novelty of them wears off. This was true when Tempest Spine was the only raid in town. I had quit playing by the time that VoN was added, but by the time I came back to give DDO another run it was true of it. Rangers were soloing DQ not long after it was released. The Shroud has always been very casual, even back when part one could take some considerable time and people knew what a Portal Keeper was. ToD was probably one of the least accessible raids in DDO, simply because of the Boots of Anchoring. And even then, before long people were running it with just Mantle of the Worldshaper to keep themselves from being banished. If you are looking for a very challenging raid game, where you can 'play close to the peak' that is at too high of a skill threshold for most people to make, you have been playing the wrong MMO because that has never existed in DDO.

    And despite having said all of this, I tend to agree with the OP. Without a solid endgame for those remaining at cap, a game can not survive. eTRing gives people a regression endgame, which some people will love and others will see as being pointless. But we still need the top level raids and higher difficulty dungeons for people to do in order to gather with their friends and feel like they are making some kind of progression in the game. But this does not happen over night. Scripted encounters are very slow to create and test. And no matter if it was a terrible mistake to push the level cap up as soon as Turbine did, we are now stuck with that decision. And it will be quite some time before they are able to build a new level 30 endgame for DDO. I am skeptical as to whether or not there will be enough people left by the time that they do so for it to matter. But I know that without some kind of alternate endgame, such as a regressive endgame via eTRing, that there absolutely won't be anyone left playing by mid-late next year, which is realistically the soonest they could get the beginnings of a level 30 endgame built.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When TOD/shroud was endgame = the best era of DDO. Even many casual players liked that era, because shroud runs werent just for the elite gamers, and each run produced more ingredients which got them closer to their goal. We had timers back then that could not be paid to circumvent so after doing our shroud runs, the endgamers quested like everyone else did, and TR'd like everyone else did.
    Agreed, but Epic VON and DQ were still nice. Game all went downhill U9-U11.

  17. #117

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    Actually, the only thing mind-numbing about TRing in the pre MotU era were levels 18 and 19. The devs were too damn lazy to give us quests, that were worth the time to run, in that level range. What killed raiding was the fact that Turbine made all their pre-MotU gear obsolete and steadfastly refused to update it. A few items kept some of the raids limping along. (ex. ESoS, Alchemical Handwraps) Then, with u19, they said “Eff it. We’re just going to make all your named items suck.”
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    Now this is an absolute laugh! I don't know what server you're playing on, but I personally beat LoB with a couple of handful of different guild groups on Thellanis before U14. And there were many others that I did not have any friends in doing it as well. You may want to remember your victories as being something exclusive.... but they weren't. (Real) Epic LoB was getting run by anyone who really had the desire to do it.
    Nonsense. If real Epic LOB was getting beaten on a regular basis by more than 5% of a server I'd be surprised.

    My anecdote is stronger than your since it came from me, it's the privilege of being teh_troll.

  19. #119

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    The other thing that’s killing end game, for me, is the lack of character diversity in EE quests.

    You a caster? Why you no Shiradi Champion with Force/Magic Missle?!?!?
    You a melee? Where's your 6 monk levels? Why you no have Overwhelming crit?!?!?

    Meh. Eff it, I'll go back to TRing until Turbine gives us something worth doing.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    TRing is equally mind munbing as raiding.
    If it is, that's only because you make it so. It's not for me. Each life is a new build and I mix them up so there's a lot of contrast in play style and gear. The characters evolve more quickly at heroic levels, there's lots of variety in enhancements to choose from, and so forth.

    Of course to enjoy this, you have to actually run the quests, rather than run past the quests.

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