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  1. #41
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    "Endgame" being grinding the same handful of levels using the same quests to grind them in, over and over again, for pointless repetition of gaining the same XP repeatedly? No, TR is NOT "just playing the game" - we have been clearly shown this by those who cheeze/exploit, to get as much xp in as little time as possible, and then justify doing so by claiming they no longer enjoy playing the entire content of the gmae but are "forced" to do so as a means of an end - their character gaining more power.
    Those people have it backwards. They don't repeat the same 30 quests over and over, week after week, because TRing is boring.

    TRing is boring because all they do is repeat those same 30 quests over and over, week after week.

    TRing for most people is just replaying the entire game. I go slow enough that (so far) it's never gotten boring. I just replayed through Max Payne 3 again a few weeks ago. It had been 4 months or so since the first time I played it, and it was very enjoyable again the second time through. If I played it all the way through 20 times in 20 weeks, I'm guessing it would start to get boring. Especially I only played the 2nd level 10 times during each play-through instead of all 10 levels.

    TRing through all 300 quests, over a couple of months with my TWF melee, and then doing it again with wizard, and then my monk archer, and then my fvs, and then my bard/rogue, and then my barbarian, keeps the game very fresh. By the time I'm back to the TWF melee again it's been a year since I played through game with that guy. So I AM replaying the entire game. Not grinding anything.

    Much more enjoyable for me than grinding out the 1 quest that drops that 1 named item I want at end-game.

    However, I fully support more end-game raids with great named loot for powergamers (and me) to grind for. I don't mind "grinding" raids because of the 20th list. Plus I usually play them every 3 days so it's not much of a grind. It's a nice change of pace from my current TR project.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    .

    Count me out.
    Can I haz your stuff?

  3. #43
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    I don't know for sure, but ETR looks better than new raids... How many people are raiding? Less than 1%? Most players can't get 5!! other player to group with, imagine how long would take to get 11... They changed the game, it caters soloist / small groups now. Most players changed as well, to be able to continue playing. Any player can solo / shortman leveling up from 20 to 28, so ETR is a SURE thing for the majority... Other way... waiting forever to fill a lvl 30 raid with semi-competent players would be NO FUN at all.

  4. #44
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Those people have it backwards. They don't repeat the same 30 quests over and over, week after week, because TRing is boring.

    TRing is boring because all they do is repeat those same 30 quests over and over, week after week.

    TRing for most people is just replaying the entire game. I go slow enough that (so far) it's never gotten boring. I just replayed through Max Payne 3 again a few weeks ago. It had been 4 months or so since the first time I played it, and it was very enjoyable again the second time through. If I played it all the way through 20 times in 20 weeks, I'm guessing it would start to get boring. Especially I only played the 2nd level 10 times during each play-through instead of all 10 levels.

    TRing through all 300 quests, over a couple of months with my TWF melee, and then doing it again with wizard, and then my monk archer, and then my fvs, and then my bard/rogue, and then my barbarian, keeps the game very fresh. By the time I'm back to the TWF melee again it's been a year since I played through game with that guy. So I AM replaying the entire game. Not grinding anything.

    Much more enjoyable for me than grinding out the 1 quest that drops that 1 named item I want at end-game.

    However, I fully support more end-game raids with great named loot for powergamers (and me) to grind for. I don't mind "grinding" raids because of the 20th list. Plus I usually play them every 3 days so it's not much of a grind. It's a nice change of pace from my current TR project.
    I think you have it wrong the powergamers are the TR players. They are grinding something which has no purpose or reason to grind in order to make their characters better. The end game players are challenging characters and builds and seeing if they work or not i.e. they have a purpose and are not powergaming. If they decide they need to go back and tr a character to get a benefit then they have a purpose with that as well. TR players have no purpose, but are pure powergamers.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Those people have it backwards. They don't repeat the same 30 quests over and over, week after week, because TRing is boring.

    TRing is boring because all they do is repeat those same 30 quests over and over, week after week.
    Wrong.

    I finish a TR between 3000-4000 favor.

    It's boring because it's about as challenging as beating Stephen Hawkings in boxing.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    I really enjoy the destiny system, and have had a lot of fun with it. And having something to do with the experience I was getting questing and basically wasting while I was sitting on cap made it a blast, and actually makes me spend longer times capped out than I would without it. What exactly is it you don't like about the destiny system? Most people believe their power comes from it. Or is it that you want to just cap you're 'best destiny' and not have to work for the fate points and twist abilities, and just get them free?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    2. No new raids.
    Fall of Truth isn't that old yet, and I think it takes a LOT of dev time to make decent raids. I'd rather they work hard on it and make it good than just churn out ****. Also, raiding is only part of the gaming experience. The only real difference I've noticed between raids and quests in the same level is more people to gather, and to hope they all get along all right for the duration of the quest. Man has there been some crazy fights during raids. LOL How many raids and how often do you think there should be? You don't really give a lot of details or information for anyone at turbine or the playerbase reading this to think on at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    Since they by their own admission haven't really reached the end game of 30 yet, I'm reserving judgement. I also have enjoyed several of the new named pieces I picked up, so generally disagree with you also on this point. What exactly don't you like about it? What do you like about it? What would you suggest they have put into the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    THe auction house has zero effect on my playing. I play this game for the experience of playing it, and the fun of actually doing the quests, not for the loot. Sure I like it when something nice drops, but if you handed me a set of the absolute best gear EVER for my toon right now, I would still play the same. It's a game. I like playing games. And the reverse could be argued here, it motivated people to grind for the gear to sell it to make plat/shards. I remember a LOT of raids where loot was left to rot in the chest because no one would use it. It was not by any means an uncommon occurrence either.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    New system and dev time that made this game more fun. Also, they have to balance the needs of everyone, beginners and endgame alike. The recent enhancement pass added a lot of flexibility to the game, and was a great addition encouraging people to play once we got used to it. So what about it is the problem? Is it that people have the option to epic tr, go back to 20, and play their way up again that you are against? Because it's not required, it's an option that each player decides if it's worth it or not. Just like regular tr. Even after destinies a lot of people still do it, because they are bored sitting around the end of the game doing the same things over and over. They want to play the whole game again. Others like sitting at the top and put their energy to doing things there. Giving players options to do what is fun to them is the height of encouraging them to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    What system do you want? Keep adding more end game quests with bigger and badder loot, and you're going to drive off the people already unhappy with the power creep as we have it now in this game. And endgame is in and of itself a hamster well. You sit capped out, doing the same quests over and over. Sounds extremely boring! I think the epic reincarnation, with the choice of whether or not to do heroic, is a fabulous compromise that leaves room for all sorts of players.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.
    I'm sorry you don't find the new quests fun, I've found them to be a great time and enjoyed them immensely. But fun is purely a subjective thing. However, you don't at all expound on what you find poor about the whole experience other than the points you already made, so am I to take this as purely a redundant summary statement? It's hard to really have any idea where you are coming from.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    I agree with what others have said. The game needs both.

    At no point, should character progression stop, beyond a temporary basis. One of the things I absolutely love about DDO is that my character is never quite "done". I remember several friends who ran off to play Guild Wars 2, quickly reached cap, got the gear they wanted and then...? There was nothing to do. Their character couldn't get any stronger, gear was simply swapping items for little or no gain. They could make the most awesome content in the world, but if players have nothing to gain, they won't run it.

    Epic True Reincarnation is in my opinion the next logical step for this game. There are more and more completionists every day on all servers (well maybe not Wayfinder). Many through the course of all those lives, have acquired or nearly acquired all the gear they want. So what else is there to do? At this point nothing. However, I have faith that the devs are slowly working to remedy this.

    First we have Epic True Reincarnation, hopefully quite a few new feats and reasonable xp grind. Suddenly even uber completionists have something to work on again and it would appear you no longer have to start at level 1. So already we have the first part in place for a revitalized end game, lots of characters moving between 20 and 28.

    Secondly they (the devs) have indicated a level cap increase to 30. Why they simply didn't do this with Shadowfell, baffles me a bit. They have also indicated that level 30, will be cap for an extended period. When that happens we will have 10 full epic levels, + the True Reincarnation system.

    Thirdly, they have indicated they would like to Epic more areas in Eberron. While I prefer new quests, having more content to run in more parts of the game is a good thing, as you don't want players (in my opinion) sort of bunched up like they are now in Eveningstar. This will also reduce the repetitive grind of the some of the xp needed to cap, and then re-cap your Epic TR's.

    Lastly, with all system hopefully in place (Enhancements, TR, epic Destiny etc.) the devs can now focus on what makes this game great, solid quests, raids and new classes/races. And their will be much rejoicing. The issue will be however, how long will it take them to accomplish this. But maybe with less new systems, they can squash bugs and produce content at a faster pace, sort of like the honeymoon period we had after the game went free to play.

    So in the End say YES to Epic TR and YES to an Epic End Game.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    To me, playing epic quests and raids IS endgame. Epic TR'ing just means I get to do it with more goodies.
    It's a matter of perspective, as all things are.
    This. I'm very much looking forward to epic TR. All my guys have 3-4 heroic TRs now, and I'm not getting as much bang for my buck anymore. I'd still TR for the fun of playing the whole game again, but it will be fun for me to concentrate more on the 20-28 game for a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  9. #49
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    I don't know for sure, but ETR looks better than new raids... How many people are raiding? Less than 1%? Most players can't get 5!! other player to group with, imagine how long would take to get 11... They changed the game, it caters soloist / small groups now. Most players changed as well, to be able to continue playing. Any player can solo / shortman leveling up from 20 to 28, so ETR is a SURE thing for the majority... Other way... waiting forever to fill a lvl 30 raid with semi-competent players would be NO FUN at all.
    that's the point. not much of a reason for players to stay in epic levels other than to cap to 28, ED grind and than farm for loot. raids can be slow to fill and the quality of players in those raids can be inexperienced. that's why some of us choose the TR grind since their isn't much in the epic levels to stay and play after we have the twists and hit 28 with only 2 raids to pick from.

  10. #50
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I remember failing Shroud at level, do anyone ever fail shroud now?
    "Shroud"?

    Wasn't that some kind of raid people used to run a long time ago? You fought someone named "Barry" and had to solve some kind of puzzles at one point? Kind of like another old raid people used to run named something like "Reefer's Gate"?

    God, I miss the old raids...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  11. #51
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    I don't know for sure, but ETR looks better than new raids... How many people are raiding? Less than 1%? Most players can't get 5!! other player to group with, imagine how long would take to get 11... They changed the game, it caters soloist / small groups now. Most players changed as well, to be able to continue playing. Any player can solo / shortman leveling up from 20 to 28, so ETR is a SURE thing for the majority... Other way... waiting forever to fill a lvl 30 raid with semi-competent players would be NO FUN at all.
    People don't raid because Turbine, in their infinite ineptitude, destroyed both peoples' completions AND the loot you get for the 20th lists. Nobody wants to run raids at the moment because they do not want to get a 20th list and get screwed out of loot.

    People don't raid because the loot you get from raids is inferior to regular old random-gen loot you can easily get off the Shard AH for 40 shards.

    Fix these issues, and people will start raiding again.

  12. #52
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    "Shroud"?

    Wasn't that some kind of raid people used to run a long time ago? You fought someone named "Barry" and had to solve some kind of puzzles at one point? Kind of like another old raid people used to run named something like "Reefer's Gate"?

    God, I miss the old raids...
    Those were the days.

  13. #53
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    First we have Epic True Reincarnation, hopefully quite a few new feats and reasonable xp grind. Suddenly even uber completionists have something to work on again and it would appear you no longer have to start at level 1. So already we have the first part in place for a revitalized end game, lots of characters moving between 20 and 28.
    This is a good point... There will be a lot more 20-28 LFMs when Epic TR comes out, so that will revitalize "end-game" somewhat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It will almost certainly be better then a regular true reincarnation benefit wise. It still is providing incentives for us to not play end game something which is getting real old - real quick.
    Thankfully DDO actually has an end game with a point. Normal end games consist of PvP (which is always pointless because your opponents don't stay dead and nothing you accomplish during PvP ever lasts) or end game gear grind (which is what you are asking for, but is also pointless because whatever gear you grind will inevitably be replaced by better gear when they release new content). The only end game that can possibly matter and be worth doing is something that results in permanent character improvement. That means tomes and past life feats. Nothing else lasts forever and thus nothing else is worth our time. The best part about the TR end game is that you get to make a permanent character improvement without being forced to sit at the level cap replaying the small percentage of content that is available there. With TRing you get to replay all the content which makes for a less boring grind than replaying 10% or less of the content.

    DDO's end game is the best yet. You want to talk about terrible end games, talk about those games that leave you stuck at the level cap with no way to permanently improve your character. How about all those great end games where you can play at cap for 2 years and a person that took a 2 year break will be just as well geared as you 2 days after the next expansion comes out? End game has almost always been a pointless waist of time with no lasting benefits of any kind. That cannot be said for TRing. It is an end game system with benefits that last forever. The fact that you don't have to stay at the level cap playing a tiny portion of the content over and over again to earn those benefits is just icing on the cake.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is a good point... There will be a lot more 20-28 LFMs when Epic TR comes out, so that will revitalize "end-game" somewhat.
    LOL - they'll all be running easy stuff on EH.

    You have to be kidding me?

  16. #56
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    LOL - they'll all be running easy stuff on EH.

    You have to be kidding me?
    Yep-- will all be VON3 and MOTU EH farms.

  17. #57
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I really enjoy the destiny system, and have had a lot of fun with it. And having something to do with the experience I was getting questing and basically wasting while I was sitting on cap made it a blast, and actually makes me spend longer times capped out than I would without it. What exactly is it you don't like about the destiny system? Most people believe their power comes from it. Or is it that you want to just cap you're 'best destiny' and not have to work for the fate points and twist abilities, and just get them free?
    I like the destinies, but they do not encourage people to play the end game quests on epic elite because somebody has to be in a primary destiny or it takes longer if they do not. Somebody also does not get xp in epic elite like they do in epic normal or hard running a non end game quest.

    Fall of Truth isn't that old yet, and I think it takes a LOT of dev time to make decent raids. I'd rather they work hard on it and make it good than just churn out ****. Also, raiding is only part of the gaming experience. The only real difference I've noticed between raids and quests in the same level is more people to gather, and to hope they all get along all right for the duration of the quest. Man has there been some crazy fights during raids. LOL How many raids and how often do you think there should be? You don't really give a lot of details or information for anyone at turbine or the playerbase reading this to think on at all.
    Raiding tends to help the end game as people do raiding and they play end game quests as well. Raids provide a foundation for the end game. Raids are not extremely popular in DDO according to Producer Rowan, but whatever.

    Since they by their own admission haven't really reached the end game of 30 yet, I'm reserving judgement. I also have enjoyed several of the new named pieces I picked up, so generally disagree with you also on this point. What exactly don't you like about it? What do you like about it? What would you suggest they have put into the game?
    The named loot is not as good as random loot for the most part. You need to pick up more random loot to compare I guess. Named loot is a primary incentive to run a particular quest. Improved named loot at the least and a better loot system where we can better build upon past loot or get interesting exciting more customizeable loot.


    THe auction house has zero effect on my playing. I play this game for the experience of playing it, and the fun of actually doing the quests, not for the loot. Sure I like it when something nice drops, but if you handed me a set of the absolute best gear EVER for my toon right now, I would still play the same. It's a game. I like playing games. And the reverse could be argued here, it motivated people to grind for the gear to sell it to make plat/shards. I remember a LOT of raids where loot was left to rot in the chest because no one would use it. It was not by any means an uncommon occurrence either.
    [/quote]
    The auction house and currency effects everyone. Any form of deterrent on the end game should be changed or removed.

    New system and dev time that made this game more fun. Also, they have to balance the needs of everyone, beginners and endgame alike. The recent enhancement pass added a lot of flexibility to the game, and was a great addition encouraging people to play once we got used to it. So what about it is the problem? Is it that people have the option to epic tr, go back to 20, and play their way up again that you are against? Because it's not required, it's an option that each player decides if it's worth it or not. Just like regular tr. Even after destinies a lot of people still do it, because they are bored sitting around the end of the game doing the same things over and over. They want to play the whole game again. Others like sitting at the top and put their energy to doing things there. Giving players options to do what is fun to them is the height of encouraging them to play.
    I like being challenged and find that levelling provides no challenge. I enjoy DDO's combat system and character creation system, but that is not sufficient without a challenge.

    What system do you want? Keep adding more end game quests with bigger and badder loot, and you're going to drive off the people already unhappy with the power creep as we have it now in this game. And endgame is in and of itself a hamster well. You sit capped out, doing the same quests over and over. Sounds extremely boring! I think the epic reincarnation, with the choice of whether or not to do heroic, is a fabulous compromise that leaves room for all sorts of players.
    There has been plenty of systems from different loot systems, to reincarnation like benefits from playing end game quests, to additional difficulties, to different ways of varying the quests themselves, changing AI of the mobs and challenges in the quests, epicfying other old quests, improved challenge systems and the list goes on and on. The suggestions and general discussion are littered with suggestions regarding end game play. The devs decided the end game is not worthy of their time.

    I'm sorry you don't find the new quests fun, I've found them to be a great time and enjoyed them immensely. But fun is purely a subjective thing. However, you don't at all expound on what you find poor about the whole experience other than the points you already made, so am I to take this as purely a redundant summary statement? It's hard to really have any idea where you are coming from.
    I find the end game quests very fun actually. I dislike that I get terrible xp on the quests compared to other xp quests especially the xp per minute that you get on the epic elite difficulty.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This . . .

    If all you're looking for is XP the best path is a boring challenge-free snoozfest. The pursuit of loot was a better end-game.
    While the best experience per minute is indeed a boring challenge-free snoozfest sometimes it is wiser to lower your experience per minute so you can enjoy yourself instead. DDO has never had unlimited character improvement. You have always been limited to 1 of each tome and 39 past life feats. This means there is no rush. Once you get all the tomes and all 39 past life feats the character cannot be permanently improved (which makes it a dead character that is pointless to play). Epic TRing will add more permanent improvements but I am sure there will be a limit to how many of those improvements you can get as well. Thus there is no rush. There is no need to hurry up and get all the improvements because then the game is over. There is nothing left to do. I suppose you could start another character and do it again, but if you know all you are going to do is throw a character away once you are done with him why bother in the first place? Take your time. Have fun. Make it last. Getting to the end too quickly leaves you with nothing meaningful to do.

    I hear plenty of people talk about how bored they are when TRing, but I see how they play and am not surprised. Unless you genuinely hate playing the quests in this game (which would make me wonder why you are here) TRing should be a fun process. TRing is nothing more than playing through the game again and since any end game involves replaying some part of the game it is less repetitive to repeat the entire game than it is to repeat just a small portion of it. TRing gives the opportunity to do this, but you have to be up for the challenge. Repeating only the easiest quests that give the best experience per minute is going to make TRing way more boring than it needs to be. There are other ways to add challenge to TRing such as not multiclassing your characters into the most powerful flavor-of-the-month builds possible and not building to be totally self-sufficient. Playing a pure Barbarian is fun for most people that enjoy melee characters and with no self-healing built into the build you will find challenges that you forgot existed. TRing is super easy for many players mostly because they do everything in their power to make it as easy as possible. That is probably not the best idea if someone desires a challenge. Skipping the most challenging quests every life (as many TR's do) because they give less experience per minute is also not the best idea if you desire a challenge.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  19. #59
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    While the best experience per minute is indeed a boring challenge-free snoozfest sometimes it is wiser to lower your experience per minute so you can enjoy yourself instead.
    This is such a ridiculous falsehood it's not funny, I didn't even read the rest of your posts.

    How is running easy stuff SLOWER less boring? You've got to be kidding me.

  20. #60
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is such a ridiculous falsehood it's not funny, I didn't even read the rest of your posts.

    How is running easy stuff SLOWER less boring? You've got to be kidding me.
    Well, there's the rub. Many power(ish) gamers focus on the xp and the loot. getting to cap, farming chests as fast as possible. Doing that makes the quests themselves sort of blur. The fights all run together, the mechanics get old. That's where the boredom and ennui start and end.

    Running quests slowly (even easy quests), increases immersion. Less emphasis on the fights, more on the story. For some gamers, a small minority sadly, the dungeon crawl is far more important than the end reward list. In the end, all quests are completable, all loot is attainable. We don't 'NEED' to chase all the Shiny in order to complete quests. I mean, finding Pinion is not a flagging mechanism. So yeah, for some, it's more about the adventure than the race.

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