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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by mute_mayhem View Post
    I'm glad to see that deductive reasoning is still an acceptable method of proving a point.
    .
    a presumption based on statements made by devs and reinforced by changes implemented by devs and devs stating they have this type of data availble to them
    sooo yeah it does compute

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    We call it Crucibled for a reason.
    Yeah, because "we" are idiots. People say something is crucibled when it is made easier, but The Crucible wasn't made any easier. Gianthold Tor was made easier to flag for by making it so that running The Crucible was no longer necessary if all you cared about was flagging for Tor. So if a challenging prerequisite is removed and replaced with an easier one then the quest was Torred. Some moron thought he was being clever calling it crucibled and apparently no one was bright enough to realize that it didn't even make sense. Hence the reason "we" use crucibled is because "we" aren't very bright.
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    That's not entirely true; the complaint wasn't that it was way to much of an challenge, it's because the mechanic is really for a group but can be done solo with some fiddling. Beating stuff over the head was never the issue.
    Challenge != beating stuff over the head.

    The most challenging quests and raids in the game have hack and slash that rates trivial to meh in terms of difficulty. You could take every mob out of Crucible and it would still be a challenge.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  4. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Yeah, because "we" are idiots. People say something is crucibled when it is made easier, but The Crucible wasn't made any easier. Gianthold Tor was made easier to flag for by making it so that running The Crucible was no longer necessary if all you cared about was flagging for Tor. So if a challenging prerequisite is removed and replaced with an easier one then the quest was Torred. Some moron thought he was being clever calling it crucibled and apparently no one was bright enough to realize that it didn't even make sense. Hence the reason "we" use crucibled is because "we" aren't very bright.
    The one reason why I think this flap is so silly is because in 'return to Gianthold' the story isn't really about beating the reaver anymore. I understand that they didn't have time to fundamentally change the flagging quests between heroic and epic and that it's easier to change the CR and such but having a spat over the proper flagging quests is arguing over semantics since the quest is still there, with the same mechanic. No big deal.

  5. #285
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    This thread is so silly.
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  6. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Challenge != beating stuff over the head.

    The most challenging quests and raids in the game have hack and slash that rates trivial to meh in terms of difficulty. You could take every mob out of Crucible and it would still be a challenge.
    Be honest. Do you think it's the best for Turbine to cater to a narrow group of players or making sure the mechanics support as many as possible. I know you can solo crucible but it's something diehard players do. I doubt it was in Turbines best interest to force people to 'figure out how to solo' or ensuring they had a toon with a good reflex save.

    The quest is still there however but at the time this went down it almost sounded like the sky was falling and you couldn't play crucible anymore.

    The reality is that if you only got x amount of time then beating stuff over the head is easier. If you however can sit and play all day people sure have time to figure out how to solo group mechanics.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Not at all when taht section of the playerbase isa toxic cancer that creates reasons for new players to just walk away rather then get involved which is what the closed minded xenophobic elitist rep of DDO has been for so many years its not almost impossible to convince anyone who has heard those old horror stories to come check out the game.
    I am not sure if you meant to quote me with this response. But, yeah I have not experienced what you claim exists in the abundance you claim it to exist over the last 7 and a half years, on two different servers. Have I seen a bit of it, sure. But, not nearly to the extreme you make it out to be.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  8. #288
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Yeah, because "we" are idiots. People say something is crucibled when it is made easier, but The Crucible wasn't made any easier. Gianthold Tor was made easier to flag for by making it so that running The Crucible was no longer necessary if all you cared about was flagging for Tor. So if a challenging prerequisite is removed and replaced with an easier one then the quest was Torred. Some moron thought he was being clever calling it crucibled and apparently no one was bright enough to realize that it didn't even make sense. Hence the reason "we" use crucibled is because "we" aren't very bright.


    The term "crucibled" is now being used to describe Turbine making things easier, regardless of semantics.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #289
    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    I love new content, I love the experience of not knowing whats around the next corner. I like the dungeon crawl, when things are so hard you HAVE to go slow and use strategy. I hate spoilers. For these reasons I patiently wait with baited breath for new content, then I run it solo to avoid the zerging spoilers. Afterwards I rejoin the LFM world and "get by" till the next new content. What would keep me around for more? Not more running the same old quests over and over TRing heroic or epic. NEW CONTENT MORE OFTEN!

  10. #290
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Not at all when taht section of the playerbase isa toxic cancer that creates reasons for new players to just walk away rather then get involved which is what the closed minded xenophobic elitist rep of DDO has been for so many years its not almost impossible to convince anyone who has heard those old horror stories to come check out the game.
    Youre labeling an entire gaming demographic a toxic cancer that creates reasons for new players to walk away, in order to attempt to make or reinforce a point? This goes well beyond simply reaching for justification.

    In other news, the DDO in game community is more mature and easy going than most MMO communities. You may not get that vibe when reading the forums where entire gaming demographics get labeled as a toxic cancer by those attempting to lobby Turbine to focus the entire game around their exclusionary agenda of how they play at the expense of all others, but if you actually log into the game and play, youll see that most folks are laid back and easy going. Theres a squelch function for those who insist you play their way or Turbine should not value you as a customer.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #291
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Challenge != beating stuff over the head.

    The most challenging quests and raids in the game have hack and slash that rates trivial to meh in terms of difficulty. You could take every mob out of Crucible and it would still be a challenge.
    Yep. Because Crucible wasn't just about killing more mobs. It was a test of skill. Apparently the masses spoke and preferred to forgo their skill and replace it with zzzz questing.

  12. #292
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schelsullivan View Post
    I love new content, I love the experience of not knowing whats around the next corner. I like the dungeon crawl, when things are so hard you HAVE to go slow and use strategy. I hate spoilers. For these reasons I patiently wait with baited breath for new content, then I run it solo to avoid the zerging spoilers. Afterwards I rejoin the LFM world and "get by" till the next new content. What would keep me around for more? Not more running the same old quests over and over TRing heroic or epic. NEW CONTENT MORE OFTEN!
    I don't know how realistic it is to expect them to come out with new content more often since there are probably budgetary and logistical reasons that they don't, but I 1000% agree. New content is where it's at.

  13. #293
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I absolutely disagree. It's quite clear who is where on their "ddo" journey, and it's quite clear who was where when they proclaim how "hard" DDO used to be. Quite frankly, everyone proclaiming about the challenge of DDO past were noobs at the time. It's quite evident. There's several of us telling you that DDO wasn't at all challenging in the past for good players, yet you just completely skip over this.
    Actually, DDO was quite challenging in the past, prior to power-creep. Back when you couldn't have more than four enhancements total, there was no +hp enhancements, you didn't have people running around with +8 or more to all stats, no +3, 4, 5 tomes, etc. Back when a mage had 150hp instead of 600+, "tank" builds had 300hp instead of 1000+, people running around with DCs in the 50-80 range, etc.

    What's happened is what happens in every game -- the rules allow for more powerful characters, more people start min-maxing for absolute maximum performance, learn how to exploit the mechanics ("twitching" through animations, etc), and realize that once they've done all that, the game just isn't as challenging anymore. Go figure.

    But I suppose everyone's "in the past" is different.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by schelsullivan View Post
    I love new content, I love the experience of not knowing whats around the next corner. I like the dungeon crawl, when things are so hard you HAVE to go slow and use strategy. I hate spoilers. For these reasons I patiently wait with baited breath for new content, then I run it solo to avoid the zerging spoilers. Afterwards I rejoin the LFM world and "get by" till the next new content. What would keep me around for more? Not more running the same old quests over and over TRing heroic or epic. NEW CONTENT MORE OFTEN!
    New Content that has some replayability is the best.

    I am not saying No to never, ever having Epic TR. Just not now, with the amount of Epic quests we have and the current Epic XP tables, it is a grind just to get to 28 once, let alone do it multiple times over on the same character. Give more content, readjust the XP tables then come back and talk about Epic TRs. The whole horse before the cart as it were.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  15. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by schelsullivan View Post
    I love new content, I love the experience of not knowing whats around the next corner. I like the dungeon crawl, when things are so hard you HAVE to go slow and use strategy. I hate spoilers. For these reasons I patiently wait with baited breath for new content, then I run it solo to avoid the zerging spoilers. Afterwards I rejoin the LFM world and "get by" till the next new content. What would keep me around for more? Not more running the same old quests over and over TRing heroic or epic. NEW CONTENT MORE OFTEN!
    A simple suggestion I've thrown out before is random dungeons within a quest. Say 1-5 different random small things (kind of like rare in wilderness hidden in caves and such) with 10 or so different environment - divided among mega spawned, regular and trapped.

    So it would be possible to find all of the potential entrances located in obscure parts of the actual quests. And it would be up to the player to enter it or move on. The reward for doing them would be equal to doing a basic quest and the reward something like a chest for every level of difficulty. Of course with higher difficulty the dungeon would be slightly bigger and the chance for a trapped or mega spawned greater.

    Turbine could create that system for new dungeons then go back into old content and 'add the entrance spawn point' with little effort since you're in essence going into new content. Assuming it's that 'easy'.

    That adds some interest to existing content and prolongs the experience for people that want too. And for people who want to zerg they can just ignore and move on without loss.

    This system could also be added to wilderness to add a sense of randomness without the need to add rare spawn points - this would in essence become your rare encounter.

    And as more content gets released more 'dungeons' with more type of spawns could be added - greatly expanding the diversity. I mean who wouldn't want to enter a man made cave in a castle or dive into a grotto when running outside? Especially since you never know what would be in it.

  16. #296
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    I have to be honest and say I'm not too thrilled with the idea of Epic Reincarnation. From what I've read so far it's the best reincarnation proposal so far, but it's just not too thrilling to me. I'm just not too keen on systems that want you to take two steps back to take one step forward. I would have preferred a linear system of gain. I think it's just lazy design. Instead of creating new content to go along with new abilities, they make you have to go backwards to gain the ability so that you then go through the same content again to get back to what you had before.

    I then have to re-acquire my feats and juggle my equipment (thanks to the ML requirements) all just so I can get back to what I was before. So that I can then start all over again.

    At least I'll be able to keep my Destinies and Twists.

    But I would have preferred a linear endgame rather than a circular one. Allow us to continue accessing abilities and give us new content to use them, rather than accessing abilities by abandoning much of what we have, so that we can then level up again, pick back up our old feats, and re-gear ourselves with our old equipment.

    Oh well, I guess it's the best Turbine can come up with since they don't have the funds or manpower to develop much new stuff; continue to give incentives to re-run the old stuff.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There's several of us telling you that DDO wasn't at all challenging in the past for good players, yet you just completely skip over this.
    Uh I am talking about having something besides starting over at level 1 to do with my capped characters, I'm not sure why you quoted me, as Chai seems to be the person holding a "challange" debate. I'm not sure what MY skill level has to do with anything, except that my words seem to have hurt your feelings and now you're trying to "hurt me back" by lashing out with this "the game wasn't challenging for elites like me" sillyness.

    However that said: I believe you have very little experience with DDO past a year or two back, and I think this is readily appearent to anyone who's been playing the game for a while. Good players wiped in Amrath all the time. You don't know this because you weren't there. You are just making things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Without any of that, any sort of design choice for DDO that revolves around grinding three quests for needless loot will be a failure.
    Again you show your inexperience, 3 quests? So your perspective dates back to what? a year ago when CitW, LOB and Marty's were the main raids?

    VOD, HOUND, SHROUD, TOD, ABBOT, VON, DQ, REAVER, and even a little later eCHRONO, LOB and MARTY... that's not 3, add to that a dozen popular regularly run epics. Your idea of what endgame was is impossibly STUNNINGLY incorrect.
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-20-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  18. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I don't know how realistic it is to expect them to come out with new content more often since there are probably budgetary and logistical reasons that they don't, but I 1000% agree. New content is where it's at.
    It would be cool if they did a quest at the time or just changed or epified an old one and released or re-released one now and then. No need for complete chains just something now and then. But with the state of the aging code and possible bugs it would probably be a time consuming process to bug test everything just for releasing one item. I obviously don't know anything about the coding process and only see possibilities. That's why I can naivly throw out stuff that might be completely unreasonable.

  19. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Yep. Because Crucible wasn't just about killing more mobs. It was a test of skill. Apparently the masses spoke and preferred to forgo their skill and replace it with zzzz questing.
    Not really - I mean the quest is still there. Only the flagging changed.

  20. #300
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Yeah, because "we" are idiots. People say something is crucibled when it is made easier, but The Crucible wasn't made any easier. Gianthold Tor was made easier to flag for by making it so that running The Crucible was no longer necessary if all you cared about was flagging for Tor. So if a challenging prerequisite is removed and replaced with an easier one then the quest was Torred. Some moron thought he was being clever calling it crucibled and apparently no one was bright enough to realize that it didn't even make sense. Hence the reason "we" use crucibled is because "we" aren't very bright.
    Crucibled- to replace a flagging quest with another quest considered easier.

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