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  1. #1
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Default Say No to Epic True Reincarnation and Yes to an Epic End Game

    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I want to see the benefits first before I jump on a bandwagon. The devil is always in the details and these details aren't revealed yet.

  3. #3
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I want to see the benefits first before I jump on a bandwagon. The devil is always in the details and these details aren't revealed yet.
    It will almost certainly be better then a regular true reincarnation benefit wise. It still is providing incentives for us to not play end game something which is getting real old - real quick.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats. These developers and producers continue to neglect and discourage end game through the following:
    1. Poor destiny system which discourages end game play.
    2. No new raids.
    3. Poor End Game Named Loot.
    4. More tradeable named loot on the Shard Exchange discouraging more players from playing end game.
    5. New system and developer time spent on a new system which discourages end game (Epic True Reincarnation).
    6. No new system which encourages end game play. I have read many proposed systems on these forums, but I have yet to see anything added in quite sometime for the end game.
    7. Poor End Game Quest Experience.

    Count me out.
    /Not signed

    "Epic Endgame" is just codeword for grinding the same handful of quests for the rest of your life for pointless loot, while any sort of TR is "grinding" the entirety of the game (also known as just playing).

    DDO needs to remain a niche game to be successful, and emulating the millions of grindfest MMOs isn't the way to go. A fresh design is needed that doesn't revolve around the needless grinding of a small amount of quests.

  5. #5
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    So you'd rather grind for loot than XP? A grind is still a grind.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The developers and producers of DDO are content on forcing another hamster wheel which has little meaning down our throats.
    All MMO endgame is a hamster wheel. Doesn't matter if it is raid/difficult quest loot grinding or TRing.

    All of the things listed here are extremely time consuming. Essentially out of the question for the immediate future, given the reduced staff that DDO is operating with. eTRing is a way to create an endgame, even if it isn't the one that you want, to tide players over until they are able to slowly create another end game that does not revolve around recycled content.

  7. #7
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    So you'd rather grind for loot than XP? A grind is still a grind.
    Its more fun to play quests and raids, etc. where there is some sort of challenge. Levelling is an easy snoozefest. Trubine has never addressed that aspect of DDO that levelling is an easy snoozefest.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It will almost certainly be better then a regular true reincarnation benefit wise. It still is providing incentives for us to not play end game something which is getting real old - real quick.
    See . . . I run EE GH at 20. At least I did until we got the minimum level nonsense from the last update.

    As soon as I'm above level 19 my toons can participate and not pike in anything EE. Sure they get stronger with more HP, better gear, and feats but with so much of the power coming from EDs once you hit 20 you're fine.

    My point is as soon as I'm over 20 on my toons I can participate in end-game. If while participating in end-game I can level through and gain some benefits I don't see how this is a bad thing.

    yes . . . leveling up all your toons to 28 now sucks, but if only working on 1 at a time I won't be that bad.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Its more fun to play quests and raids, etc. where there is some sort of challenge. Levelling is an easy snoozefest. Trubine has never addressed that aspect of DDO that levelling is an easy snoozefest.
    This . . .

    If all you're looking for is XP the best path is a boring challenge-free snoozfest. The pursuit of loot was a better end-game.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 09-19-2013 at 11:08 AM.

  10. #10
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    In particular the complete lack of an end game raid with proper loot is disheartening. There should at the very least have been 5 end game raids at any time which offer top end loot. The complete lack of such raids is appalling.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Its more fun to play quests and raids, etc. where there is some sort of challenge. Levelling is an easy snoozefest. Trubine has never addressed that aspect of DDO that levelling is an easy snoozefest.
    Leveling is an easy snoozefest for veterans, and "endgame" is also an easy snoozefest for veterans. If you don't find it so, you just are veterany enough. There will come a point where you will find DDO cannot create hard content that lasts more than a handful of runs. This is due to the engine DDO uses and isn't something that will be changing. Which is why Turbine has to design around the flaw.

  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    /Not signed

    "Epic Endgame" is just codeword for grinding the same handful of quests for the rest of your life for pointless loot, while any sort of TR is "grinding" the entirety of the game (also known as just playing).
    Compared to what? "Endgame" being grinding the same handful of levels using the same quests to grind them in, over and over again, for pointless repetition of gaining the same XP repeatedly? No, TR is NOT "just playing the game" - we have been clearly shown this by those who cheeze/exploit, to get as much xp in as little time as possible, and then justify doing so by claiming they no longer enjoy playing the entire content of the gmae but are "forced" to do so as a means of an end - their character gaining more power.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    DDO needs to remain a niche game to be successful, and emulating the millions of grindfest MMOs isn't the way to go. A fresh design is needed that doesn't revolve around the needless grinding of a small amount of quests.
    A niche game that used to cater to endgamers who no longer caters to endgamers, loses customers. There is no fresh design for a 7 year old game. The client base is already established.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #13

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    I do believe we need to 'fix' TRing and add something now with epic levels. Some people like that system, but I'm very interested in 2 other things that were announced, a new raid and a remake of an old pack. My hope (humble or desperate) is that they flesh out an end game out of that and don't just do a EGH on everything by dumping new loot all over the place and more OP random stuff.

    We honestly need a Shroud or ToD type situation with a incremental benefit that allows us players to mold what we want out of whatever that system provides. And finally a serious idea of what the end of times might look like for DDO. Quit raising the levels and come up with content that can drive players story wise to close to loop on the ones in Eberron and and add some order and vision to the one in Forgotten Realms. Instead we now have both Lolth AND this harper stuff. And since the next raid has something to do with a undead dwarf castle I hope it's not another open story arch.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Leveling is an easy snoozefest for veterans, and "endgame" is also an easy snoozefest for veterans. If you don't find it so, you just are veterany enough. There will come a point where you will find DDO cannot create hard content that lasts more than a handful of runs. This is due to the engine DDO uses and isn't something that will be changing. Which is why Turbine has to design around the flaw.
    Never used to be this way. IF you dont remember when the game was challenging enough then it is yourself who is not veteran enough. Turbine turned the game into the snoozefest it is today, but the game was not like this during the first 3-4 years.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #15
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    See . . . I run EE GH at 20. At least I did until we got the minimum level nonsense from the last update.

    As soon as I'm above level 19 my toons can participate and not pike in anything EE. Sure they get stronger with more HP, better gear, and feats but with so much of the power coming from EDs once you hit 20 you're fine.

    My point is as soon as I'm over 20 on my toons I can participate in end-game. If while participating in end-game I can level through and gain some benefits I don't see how this is a bad thing.

    yes . . . leveling up all your toons to 28 now sucks, but if only working on 1 at a time I won't be that bad.
    The incentive is so heavily to run level 22 quests or whatever currently on epic hard and not to run level 28 quests on epic elite so unless they make a bunch of changes to the entire game in a lot of different ways epic true reincarnation will be the final nail in the end game coffin. I quite frankly do not know why they are even bothering making that raid in the winter since there will not be any end game players around to play it. Seems like a waste of dev resources.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  16. #16
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    I have already said NO to epic destiny TRing, on a personal level. There is NO way Im going to grind through the destinies a second time on any of my toons. And I don't really care what the benefits will be.

    Just this last week, I finally got to the point where I could twist 'sense weakness' on my rogue.

    And I agree with #4 of your list, the rest... not so much.
    The Fockers of Argo
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  17. #17
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It will almost certainly be better then a regular true reincarnation benefit wise. It still is providing incentives for us to not play end game something which is getting real old - real quick.
    I agree completely. And the thing is, the "benefits" you get from TRing are completely unnecessary because there IS no end-game to use them on. From what they made it sound like, EPIC TR would involve resetting to level 20 and going back up to 28 from there. But, what is the point? There is no content that requires you to have past lives to be successful.

    Right now, your only real choices are to TR or to quit the game because nobody runs stuff above level 25. Some people still run epics, but only to get in a bit of ED exp before their next TRs. Thus, they don't advance beyond 25. Even veteran players who hate TRing have started doing TRs because that's the only option if they want to keep playing.

    I also think what needs to happen, is they need to add an exp bonus for each player-controlled party member other than yourself who is inside the quest when it is completed. So, in a 6-man quest you would be getting an extra 25% exp for a full party and in a raid you will get an extra 55% exp; I think this would be sufficient enough to encourage people to start throwing up LFMs again, instead of just soloing or duoing it with a friend. Currently, the quest scaling makes it such that it is far easier and less frustrating to solo or duo with a good player than it is to carry four or five clueless, undergeared pugs through a quest. They slow you down, they make the mobs have significantly more HP and do more damage, and almost always one of them will die, costing you 10% exp. But, for this change to work, it has to be designed so that only PLAYERS are considered valid; if it allows hirelings to count then people will just pop gold seal hirelings instead.
    Last edited by djl; 09-19-2013 at 11:20 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Its more fun to play quests and raids, etc. where there is some sort of challenge. Levelling is an easy snoozefest. Trubine has never addressed that aspect of DDO that levelling is an easy snoozefest.
    All of that is your opinion. Easy? Probably for most. Snoozefest? Not for me.

    I enjoy leveling different toons. I keep playing because I am still having fun. I'll stop playing when it is no longer fun. I haven't run out of things to do. Every time I accomplish something, I think of about 5 other things to work towards next.

  19. #19
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I got Maddmatt and Chai on my side of this argument . . . I might actually be able to get some work done today.

    Carry on my minions.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Compared to what? "Endgame" being grinding the same handful of levels using the same quests to grind them in, over and over again, for pointless repetition of gaining the same XP repeatedly? No, TR is NOT "just playing the game" - we have been clearly shown this by those who cheeze/exploit, to get as much xp in as little time as possible, and then justify doing so by claiming they no longer enjoy playing the entire content of the gmae but are "forced" to do so as a means of an end - their character gaining more power.



    A niche game that used to cater to endgamers who no longer caters to endgamers, loses customers. There is no fresh design for a 7 year old game. The client base is already established.
    It's quite clear that you and I greatly differ on our opinions about game design and the way game design works. There isn't much more to say, other than, with the way DDO is designed and always will be designed, more "endgame" will simply increase the population jump after updates and the population wane shortly after. My belief is that Turbine should no longer worry about these types of players and instead focus their design choices on those people that play the game in a constant manner and try to grow this audience.

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