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  1. #121
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    and many of those raid members are the same people on diff toons running it over and over and has been for years...rowans small percentage comes from accts that raid

    i can easily belive his statement on raids..... i know lots of people that never raid or raid very infrequntly..people who are relativly new and people who have played for years

    the majority of people i see in raids are same ol same ...its been like that for the 4 years ive been playing
    Let's say you're right, I don't believe it as it doesn't match my experience, but I'm willing to give you it for the purpose of a philosophical debate.

    That small group of people also has a percentage of people that are willing to lead most raids after they get the raid down as pugs. The truely casual does not lead or post many lfms. That means as you lose this group of endgame raiders from them having nothing to do, you get a declining lfm pool that casuals can join. Now each casual is not going to join every lfm but since the pool of casuals is larger in your theory that means that they all get to raid or "hard" mode quest once in a great while as the mood strikes them. Fast forward to now when many if not most of the raiders have left and lfm's especially for endgame are down and even the casuals have less to do. This puts the game in more and more of a downward spiral as even some casuals start to leave thinking it's a dying game.

  2. #122
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    To be fair a couple of years ago we didn't need quality of life fixes. We needed content.
    And look what happened. The normally dirty house has become covered with filth with the only idea to make new add on rooms and ignore the filth.

    Funny thing about "good" habits. They can keep you going for a lot longer than 'ignoring' problems.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Let's say you're right, I don't believe it as it doesn't match my experience, but I'm willing to give you it for the purpose of a philosophical debate.

    That small group of people also has a percentage of people that are willing to lead most raids after they get the raid down as pugs. The truely casual does not lead or post many lfms. That means as you lose this group of endgame raiders from them having nothing to do, you get a declining lfm pool that casuals can join. Now each casual is not going to join every lfm but since the pool of casuals is larger in your theory that means that they all get to raid or "hard" mode quest once in a great while as the mood strikes them. Fast forward to now when many if not most of the raiders have left and lfm's especially for endgame are down and even the casuals have less to do. This puts the game in more and more of a downward spiral as even some casuals start to leave thinking it's a dying game.
    the basis for your argument is flawed at the begining by a false preconception

    which is that if you dont raid you are a casual player.....most of the people i know play at least 20 hrs a week some play alot more,most have multiple toons and years of experiance

    they all have varois reasons that they dont raid or rarely ....most of these reasons center either about peoples actions in raids kr a sense of futility off the grind

    by the tone and content of your posts it doesnt surprise me that this large group of non raiders are not noticed by you or for that matter the majority of forum posters

    but turbine knows, they have access to that data and tons more

  4. #124
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    I don't know how easy this would be for them, but why not make the final quests in the High Road, Prison, and Stormhorns arcs raids? I also like the idea of a Battle For Eveningstar as a raid as well in the arc. That's all that's needed to create a raiding endgame. They should also have an Underdark raid to make better use out of that great explorer area. Similar to the Hound where you have a long journey to kill some huge beast like a Shadow Dragon.

  5. #125
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    To be fair a couple of years ago we didn't need quality of life fixes. We needed content. We're at the point now where we have to beg Turbine to slow down the train long enough to fix things that broke last year before they release a new batch of things that will be broken for a year. They tend to bite off way more than they can chew when it comes to new content. I'd be happy if we got to the point where any bugs introduced in an update were fixed within 2 patches. If you can't fix it within that time, scrap it or retool it, but don't let the bugs linger for a year. That just looks sloppy.

    We still have bugs in epic destinies and will still have bugs in the enhancement system this time next year when they roll out another new system. Gratuitous systems changes bring on all manner of bugs that need to be worked out and it's clear that Turbine does not have the resources to fix them all. Adding 10 new quests and a raid would add far fewer bugs and those (in theory) should be confined to the new quests themselves.
    To be frankly, even before we *needed content* as you say, the same people complaining now were already doing that regarding the bug fixes first instead of new content. And nothing changed.

    1 Update. 1 goal. Bugfixes. Nothing else. But since it is a business it won't happen. Probably can't without investing 1 year without any new content.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 09-20-2013 at 12:41 PM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    The problem I had with Diablo 3, meaning, quite frankly, the reason I didn't buy it in the first place, was Diablo 2 and BattleNet. If you're not hacking, you're not playing. So no, DDO can't learn anything from Blizzard.
    I'm not sure what any of that has to do with AH's bound loot and encouraging/discouraging replayability. I think you have the wrong soap box.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  7. #127
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post

    1 Update. 1 goal. Bugfixes. Nothing else. But since it is a business it won't happen. Probably can't without investing 1 year without any new content.
    I think that would be a tremendous short term solution. They really need to get their current bugs fixed. A better long term solution would be to just not try to do so much. If you can't take care of your current bugs before you introduce more bugs in a new system then you either need to go slower or introduce fewer systems. This isn't meant as a Turbine bashing statement. I just don't want to see them try to do more than they are capable of and creating a mess by doing so. We need destiny bugs fixed, then enhancement bugs fixed, then all the small generic bugs as well as typos and tooltip issues. Some of these are very low hanging fruit. Tooltips should not stay incorrect for long. It's a simple text swap. After all these sort of bugs are fixed, they can focus on polishing up game elements so things start to look better again.

    I for one don't want to see another spell pass or enhancement revamp or super epic destiny system or whatever else until we get this game cleaned up again. Epic and Iconic TR are already in the works so that's excusable, but please no more systems after that. It's ok if an update has a few quests and a pile of bug fixes and quality of life issues. Systems changes tend to divide the player base and lead to potential negative feelings. This is very rarely the case with bug fixes and quality of life fixes. These are positive things that (hopefully) don't mess with the work players have done. You can't undermine players efforts every few months and expect them to care about this game long term. This is a very good niche game that appeals to a certain audience. Try too hard to make it a WoW clone and your players are likely to just go play the real thing with 100x the number of players to play with.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 09-20-2013 at 01:14 PM.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericrd View Post
    but turbine knows, they have access to that data and tons more
    Yeah? I "have access" to a LFM system that is becoming a ghost town, "I know" I have a continued feeling of "time to find a game that's not dieing". I have access to the feeling of "I want to spend $199 on double bonus points pack, but I'm hesitant because of the old familiar feeling of "I'm probably not going to be playing a month or two from now". A feeling I've gotten in many other games over the years (UO, SWG, EQ, two weeks after I bought Diablo III (which BTW I may very well go back to when they eliminate the AH and make playing the game necessary to get cool stuff), then there was the time before I took a year long break from DDO and so on)

    I hope Turbine's hypothetical data shows thousands of Not quite Casuals who are just waiting for the last power gamer to leave before they all start throwing groups up in a servers wide orgy of "no rush", "send tell for directions to quest", "slow and stead wins the race", "no spoliers, all optionals, reading all story parts" and lets not forget "Join for roleplaying" LFM's...

    Look all sarcasm aside; the only evidence we have suggests that content sold without raids is a dismal failure that doesn't even bump the player activity to anywhere near the same levels as a REVAMPED OLD PACK that had a raid.

    The evidence (that we can see) is that Raids promote activity above and beyond what a 10 quest pack with two giant explorer areas but no raids, managed... Thems the facts. It just might be that raids DON'T NEED TO BE RUN BY EVERYONE, to have a positive bolstering effect, it may be that they excite the player base just by being there "One day when my character is finished I will run raids" might be a carrot that even more casual and middle of the road gamers NEED.

    Until this preposterous theoretical "not casual but not into raids" super secret Advance-Casual gamer majority that are waiting for power gamers to go away shows their numbers by:

    A) buying a big quest pack with no raids at all
    B) showing up in greater numbers for a pack that has no raid, as opposed to showing up in greater numbers for an OLD REVAMPED PACK THAT DOES.
    C) start populating the LFM panel with groups to join
    D) start joining all those 1 man never get a second joiner LFM's that are already up

    Until that happens I think any rational person needs to conclude that the CURRENT DIRECTION is a failure and is not "what the players want" or if you've been following this conversation for a while: "not whats best for them despite what they say they want" (See the eating all the cookies/getting sick; what you want isn't always best for you analogy).
    Last edited by IronClan; 09-20-2013 at 01:54 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  9. #129

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    I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd just like to state one simple fact. A smartly designed raid offers the benefit to the guild community of having something to do once or twice a week. For almost all, but the most dedicated hardcore guilds, this may provide one or two YEARS of entertainment... or more. The PUG world, even though far less organized than most solid guild runs, also gains pretty much the same entertainment value.

    Imagine DDO without any raids at all. Does anyone honestly believe DDO would still be in existence today?

    Maybe so, maybe not. But I know one thing for certain. Whoever made the decision that this past $MultiDigit summertime expansion should not contain a first rate raid, made a decisive miscalculation.

    I suggest a change of focus towards building a new, better end game, lower level forgotten realms quests, and hire/delegate a team to start crankin' on 2 end game raids...

    Do I think that would cure the DDO blues some seem to have? No but it sure would be a good start.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 09-20-2013 at 02:21 PM.


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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Yeah? I "have access" to a LFM system that is becoming a ghost town, "I know" I have a continued feeling of "time to find a game that's not dieing". I have access to the feeling of "I want to spend $199 on double bonus points pack, but I'm hesitant because of the old familiar feeling of "I'm probably not going to be playing a month or two from now". A feeling I've gotten in many other games over the years (UO, SWG, EQ, two weeks after I bought Diablo III (which BTW I may very well go back to when they eliminate the AH and make playing the game necessary to get cool stuff), then there was the time before I took a year long break from DDO and so on)

    I hope Turbine's hypothetical data shows thousands of Not quite Casuals who are just waiting for the last power gamer to leave before they all start throwing groups up in a servers wide orgy of "no rush", "send tell for directions to quest", "slow and stead wins the race", "no spoliers, all optionals, reading all story parts" and lets not forget "Join for roleplaying" LFM's...

    Look all sarcasm aside; the only evidence we have suggests that content sold without raids is a dismal failure that doesn't even bump the player activity to anywhere near the same levels as a REVAMPED OLD PACK that had a raid.

    The evidence (that we can see) is that Raids promote activity above and beyond what a 10 quest pack with two giant explorer areas but no raids, managed... Thems the facts. It just might be that raids DON'T NEED TO BE RUN BY EVERYONE, to have a positive bolstering effect, it may be that they excite the player base just by being there "One day when my character is finished I will run raids" might be a carrot that even more casual and middle of the road gamers NEED.

    Until this preposterous theoretical "not casual but not into raids" super secret Advance-Casual gamer majority that are waiting for power gamers to go away shows their numbers by:

    A) buying a big quest pack with no raids at all
    B) showing up in greater numbers for a pack that has no raid, as opposed to showing up in greater numbers for an OLD REVAMPED PACK THAT DOES.
    C) start populating the LFM panel with groups to join
    D) start joining all those 1 man never get a second joiner LFM's that are already up

    Until that happens I think any rational person needs to conclude that the CURRENT DIRECTION is a failure and is not "what the players want" or if you've been following this conversation for a while: "not whats best for them despite what they say they want" (See the eating all the cookies/getting sick; what you want isn't always best for you analogy).
    You still do not get it.... Pugs aren't coming back. People do not pug because they do not want to pug. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Here's your first clue. If all these people want to pug, then, ummmm why aren't they pugging? If there aren't enough puggers to fill a pug, it's quite obviously there aren't that many puggers.

  11. #131
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You still do not get it.... Pugs aren't coming back. People do not pug because they do not want to pug. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Here's your first clue. If all these people want to pug, then, ummmm why aren't they pugging? If there aren't enough puggers to fill a pug, it's quite obviously there aren't that many puggers.
    Maybe pugs got tired of the elitist solo-ers telling them how they are doing it all wrong waiting to fill a group?

    Maybe they read the elitist posts, one made my those complaining there are no pugs, that they can solo everything if they build characters 'their' way.

    Maybe pugs got tired of people running off and doing their own thing while in their pug groups.

    Maybe pugs got folded into guilds so they have like minded people to always play with.

    Maybe the 5% of the population represented in these forums cannot find groups because they interact with the pugs in the same way the do with the forum going community.

    Maybe you really do reap what you sow and karma is really a *****.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Maybe you really do reap what you sow and karma is really a *****.

    Aheem.. just checking my watch.... yep, you gave him the right time!!


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  13. #133
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You still do not get it.... Pugs aren't coming back. People do not pug because they do not want to pug. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Here's your first clue. If all these people want to pug, then, ummmm why aren't they pugging? If there aren't enough puggers to fill a pug, it's quite obviously there aren't that many puggers.
    It only take 1 dill-hole to turn someone off to PUG-ing.

    I’ve got a lot of solo players in my guild. When a few of us get together and do runs with each other (which is rare because the level ranges are all over the place), the people who almost exclusively solo comment, “Wow, this quest goes a lot faster in a group!”

    Then they get into a PUG with a dill-hole, and they are back off to soloing.

    There are lots of reasons PUGs are down. It doesn’t help that that the “obnoxious zerg” types have soiled that bed (among others). If you can solo a quest on elite on your own, the do us all a favor: shut-up, leave the group, and solo the stupid quest on your own. Don’t join a PUG and ruin the experience for the rest of us.

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but I sorta like running with new players, for the most part. Ok yeah, they screw up, and yeah there might be a party wipe. At least I get to participate, and I don’t have to listen to comments from the “I’m so Uber” crowd about what I should do in that, that, or the other. Most of the time, they’re wrong anyways. My personal favorite suggestion is that I need to farm for <insert hard-to-get item here> as if I can just walk into a quest and pick one up. Sorry, not into mindless repetition. It fun every now and again (read: Marbar) but not all of the time.

    It does really make me wonder sometimes if some of the people who make PUGs so unpleasant actually listen to what they are saying over the mic, and if they’d say the same thing to their boss or co-workers at work?

  14. #134
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Don’t join a PUG and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
    That's kinda the point of pugging.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's kinda the point of pugging.
    A few exceptions aside, gotta admit you're getting really really good at this. You're a surprising species. And it seems to come so naturally...

    *clap* *clap* 9.5/10

    There's even some truth hidden in it.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You still do not get it.... Pugs aren't coming back. People do not pug because they do not want to pug. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Here's your first clue. If all these people want to pug, then, ummmm why aren't they pugging? If there aren't enough puggers to fill a pug, it's quite obviously there aren't that many puggers.
    1. overall, quests are not that hard for a semi skilled player. see welcome to DDO

    2. the more players in a group, the higher DS goes up. wouldn't want them challenged

    3a. different play styles conflicting with each other. xp/min crowd don't mix well with those that don't care about completion time.

    3b. different play styles conflicting with each other. my way is the right way to play.

    4. people cry about a death in the group. L2P newb

    5. beaten into our heads to just solo or find like minded players. meeting new people is so 1990

  17. #137
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post

    Until that happens I think any rational person needs to conclude that the CURRENT DIRECTION is a failure and is not "what the players want" or if you've been following this conversation for a while: "not whats best for them despite what they say they want" (See the eating all the cookies/getting sick; what you want isn't always best for you analogy).
    Any rational person will see that this is not what 5% of the population, the Forum-goes, may or may not want.

    What the other 95% want, only Turbine may know.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You still do not get it.... Pugs aren't coming back. People do not pug because they do not want to pug. You're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Here's your first clue. If all these people want to pug, then, ummmm why aren't they pugging? If there aren't enough puggers to fill a pug, it's quite obviously there aren't that many puggers.
    Empty MMO's don't keep new MMO players around for long. If you are happy to solo a poor single player RPG that used to be an MMO I'm not interested in arguing with you.

    For starters you don't have good taste in single player RPG's and you also seem to be curiously unaware (or willfully ignoring) that an MMO is designed to be a sociable game. If I am wrong to want a healthy game to play, and you are right that only Solo'ers matter then I don't want to be a part of the game you seem to feel you're entitled to. While you're entitled to PLAY the game any way you want, even as a poor single player experience. I don't think it's reasonable for you to hang out on a MMO forum and tell people they are wrong for wanting an MMO to have people to play with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Maybe pugs got tired of the elitist solo-ers telling them how they are doing it all wrong waiting to fill a group?

    Maybe they read the elitist posts, one made my those complaining there are no pugs, that they can solo everything if they build characters 'their' way.

    Maybe pugs got tired of people running off and doing their own thing while in their pug groups.

    Maybe pugs got folded into guilds so they have like minded people to always play with.

    Maybe the 5% of the population represented in these forums cannot find groups because they interact with the pugs in the same way the do with the forum going community.

    Maybe you really do reap what you sow and karma is really a *****.

    You realize that in your glee to backslap with someone who also can "see no evil, hear no evil" that Jalont is apparently one of those solo'ers you're chiding?

    Not sure who the rest of that was aimed at. Though I found trying to explain away scientifically measurable statistical losses as "5% of the forums aren't liked on their server so every time they join and look at the lfm panel all the server takes their LFM's down" bit pretty amusing.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  19. #139
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    There are lots of reasons PUGs are down. It doesn’t help that that the “obnoxious zerg” types have soiled that bed (among others). If you can solo a quest on elite on your own, the do us all a favor: shut-up, leave the group, and solo the stupid quest on your own. Don’t join a PUG and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
    Don't act like zerger's have a monopoly on this, if I pug heavily for the day it is guaranteed I will get someone that ignores the comments then complains about it. I put up my lfms as byoh, zerg, ip. Once per day I will get someone that doesn't have any potions for healing or status effects and can't heal, or a guy that starts screaming into the mic "omg you left the archers alive why aren't you killing them, come back here and help me NAOW!!!"

    Do zergers sometimes get into a flower sniffer group and zerg? Yes but flowersniffers don't even have the good grace to label their groups, I label mine as what they are and still get casuals that can't heal and won't zerg joining mine.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    80% failure rate and gets a bonus, I need to go into management. Where do I sign up to sell my soul?
    I got This contract drawn up right here, please sign on the dotted line, and don't drip Blood on the text, please
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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